Coaches How to make the corrections happen?

[cbifoja]

I am soliciting opinions/advice with the support of DD's coach. We are having an issue with DD and have decided to take some time to think of some solutions and get back together to brainstorm.

My DD is a 9YO L6. This will be her third year of competition and her fifth year of gymnastics. She is very powerful but not particularly artistic despite many attempts at dance. She was pushed through compulsories rather quickly in the hopes that the form issues will fix themselves with maturity and balancing out that issue with trying to get bigger skills before fear issues set in.

Her coach is very frustrated because DD "won't make/keep corrections". The three of us talked last night about several options up to and including a gym switch or leaving the sport entirely. I am fortunate to be able to be completely open with the coach so no option is off the table.

After talking to DD, we've discovered a problem. DD understands that she needs to make certain corrections but she doesn't know HOW to make the corrections.

Two examples.... Straight arms on cast HS. DD says it feels like her arms are straight, but obviously they aren't or the coach wouldn't mention it. Another example.... head on her BLO. She knows her head isn't supposed to be thrown back so then she tucks her chin and gets corrected for that. She says she doesn't understand how to get her head where it is supposed to be.

HC feels very defeated and says my DD makes her feel like an inadequate coach because she doesn't know how to talk to DD to make her understand.

I have a teaching background so I'm trying to approach it as I would a student who was having problems with a concept but I don't know if this translate to gym world. So I thought I would run my ideas here first to see if they would fly in your world.

My first thought was chunking. Rather than have DD run through full bar routines and getting the straight arm correction each time, that coach could have her just do the first chunk of her routine up to her cast HS. And then to keep doing just that chunk over and over until she has that muscle memory.

My other thought comes from something DD said while we were all talking. She said that if she keeps her arms straight, she won't hit her handstand. My idea is that maybe she gets explicit permission from the coach to cast to above horizontal with straight arms and that be okay for now until muscle memory allows her to go higher and higher.

I also am considering using her weekly private to go back to working basics rather than routine sequencing as they are currently being used for. However, this might mean that routines suffer for a bit.

I'm also open to any other kind of suggestion. I know that there are plenty of gymnasts that suffer from similar issues so surely with all of the years of coaching experience represented here on CB, someone has to have a strategy that could help my DD figure out how to make her coach's words turn into a physical response.

 

[iwannacoach]

Maybe she just needs to hear my story. Me with bad form...... a local joke. Me with good form..... a national competitor.

Change requires that she feel something different, even if it feels wrong or weird. She needs to make those changes by forcing anything to happen differently..... anything at all, just so she knows she's at the center of what makes her body move.

 

[gymjunkie]

I think it's a good idea to use the privates for basics & I would not give up on dance for a child who is not very artistic. She may never look like a ballerina, but it still will help (assuming she is getting quality dance training).

I am confused about your other questions, because your profile says that you too are a coach, so I assume that you use your teaching background to the benefit of your gymnasts when you coach -- no? I certainly do, but many coaches assume it's the gymnast's responsibility to figure out how to make corrections. They only do well with the type of kid who clicks with their lingo/style and are useless for a kid who needs directions delivered in a way that makes sense to them.

Also, when a gymnast spends enough time mastering the basics, they already do have a certain amount of muscle memory that creates good shapes even when they are not consciously thinking about it. Maybe being rushed through compulsories kept her from developing these shapes (although a 3rd year competitor at Level 6 is not necessarily rushed).

As for the skills, does she also whip her head back on her BHS, tuck and flyaway? IMO, when kids do this, they are telling you they need to "see" their landing in order to land (not a great landing strategy since they are looking for it before they have even reached their potential height). Does her coach tell her to stop whipping or does she tell her what to do instead? On bars, is she being spotted through straight arm handstands in her routine until she can do them herself? Is she doing proper conditioning for the cast?

 

[caraburn]

Good form doesn't happen overnight, especially when kids do big skills. Some kids it comes naturally, but most it does not and alot of times it is harder to teach form than it is to teach skills. I have a couple different approaches when teaching form, and I am definitely a technique coach more than I am a skill coach. I'd rather see simple skills done perfectly than big skills done sloppy. It might take longer to learn new things, but it results in better scores and overall better confidence.

Here are my approaches...
1. STRENGTH AND FLEXIBILITY: Although a gymnast might be extremely strong, they might not be strong enough in certain positions or certain muscle groups. You mentioned a straight arm cast to handstand. Yes she is strong enough to do a straight arm handstand, but what about on the way up to a handstand? Does she train planche holds? One example, if she cannot hold her feet up on a mat with her hands on a bar with shoulders WAY over her wrists with straight arms for AT LEAST 30 seconds, there is no way that she will be able to do a straight arm cast to handstand. Also, bad form also comes from flexibility issues. Such as in front handsprings, many kids squat on their landings because they don't have the shoulder flexibility to turn their bodies over correctly. Take a look at some of her problems and see if there are strength and flexibility exercises that will help train the correct positions and help her feel what straight TRULY feels like.

2. POOR BASICS: Go back to basics and make sure they have PERFECT technique, not just good technique. It is much easier for a child to think about perfect form on a skill they think is easy because they don' t have to worry about making the skill. Training perfection on something simple makes it easier to make corrections on harder skills. Like you mentioned, going back to a horizontal cast working on perfect arms without the worry about making the height requirement will definitely be helpful. Once the arms are fixed there she can start working on making her way back up to handstand, this time the correct way. It tends to be much less stressful for the gymnasts that way.

3. SPOTTING FOR SHAPES: Sometimes this is tough depending on the size of the coach and gymnast. I am a small framed woman and several of the older kids weight just as much if not more than I do and its very difficult to stop them in the middle of a skill and hold them there until they squeeze, but I try to do it with the smaller kids sometimes. An example is spotting a backhandspring, if they pike down as a habit sometimes I will spot them and stop them in the middle to show them what position they are in and then force them to be in the correct position over and over until they feel how it is supposed to feel. Sometimes they just don't understand how to make their bodies do what your words say.

4. VIDEO: Some kids work their butts off and try and try and try to do what you ask and they think they are doing it, so when you tell them they are not it is a huge blow to their ego. They might think you are picking on them and they're really not doing anything wrong because it doesn't feel wrong to them. Show them a video to show them what you are seeing so they realize you're just trying to help and not just trying to make them feel bad. Hearing the same corrections over and over sometimes just makes a child stop trying because no matter what they do they can't fix it, so show them so they can truly see it. Sometimes that helps more than words.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[cbifoja]

I think I got the "coach" banner by virtue of joining this group. I assume it will drop off when I opt out of the group. But I wanted to just ask coaches so that's why I temporarily joined the group.

Just a mom.....

I put that she was rushed through compulsories because for our gym she was. She competed the old L3, skipped L4, competed old L5, tested out of L6. She is supposed to go up to L7 at some point this year but I've tried to discourage that with her coach because of these continuing form issues.

I don't know about the rest of your questions because I'm not a coach. I know she doesn't get spotted on her cast HS but I don't know about the head whipping thing.

 

[cbifoja]

Caraburn:

1. She is NOT flexible. Not at all. She has one split done (most of the time) but everything else is tight. I don't think they train planche holds. I've never seen her do what you are describing. If they do them, it's pretty infrequent. I will ask her coach when we come back together to figure out our plan of attack.

2. I will definitely bring this to the table then.

3. DD is significantly smaller than coach and can be spotted for shape easily.

4. Makes so much sense. And I think this is where my DD is or if not, quickly getting there. She is SO frustrated. Her coach is frustrated. I'm exasperated. DD has started making comments like "no matter what I do, it won't be right."

I've never considered DD a particularly strong "visual" learner but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the video will help. I know that her coach does do some videoing of the girls and uses some app on her iPad to help them see the angles. Maybe her coach will be willing to use that tool with her more often.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Sometimes it is the way you ask for the correction.

Instead of straight arms ... squeeze your elbows towards each other or push against the bar or turn your elbows together.
I tend to ask young gymnasts to squeeze muscles instead of asking for straight joints (we also practice squeezing muscles in basic shapes)

 

[gymjunkie]

It sounds like your child's coach may not be a good match for your child. You as a parent are obviously going to appreciate a coach who matches their coaching to the child the same way you do with the students you teach in school. There are plenty of gymnastics coaches like that, but it doesn't sound like she is being coached by one. It also sounds like important training details that could make your child more successful and less frustrated are being skipped over, which will sabotage her success no matter how a correction is explained to her.

 

[gymdog]

A 9 year old needs specific drills to pattern the correct movements and it takes TONS of repetitions of these basics. Even more so than with slightly older (12 year) kids. So maybe your coach has great 12-15 year old level 7s and 8s, but doesn't usually have kids this age. It's fine if she's willing to learn along with your daughter, but if she's so frustrated and thinks your daughter doesn't get it, I don't know why she doesn't apply solutions like have her do drills (since you aren't pushing for her to compete anything) or have her compete the new level 5.

You didn't outright say, but it seemed to me from your description of the conversation it was almost like the coach didn't really care if your daughter stays in her group or not. Is this the coach of the level 5 team? What was the coach's reaction to these things? I guess it really depends on that. If the coach is frustrated but willing to channel that frustration by attending some TOPs type clinics or something with other girls similar age and level to get some ideas (many states have one) then that's not necessarily a bad thing. If she's just done because she can't work with a younger kid, then I think you'll need to move back a level or something.

If your daughter does switch gyms to a gym with a strong program of drills and basics, I would be prepared for her to be placed back a step in a compulsory group, but training drills and spotted skills. That is what you should expect to see in any gym you visit, no matter where she's placed level 5-7.

 

[eucoach]

Are they doing drills/side stations for specific skills? For example, when your daughter is on bars, does the coach set up side stations that focus on body shapes and form and address different phases of a skill? Regarding the bent-arm problem on her cast handstands...can she bounce to handstand with straight arms on a rebounder (this drill: )? And for her back salto problem....can she jump to a candlestick position onto a stack of mats (from a roundoff-backhandspring or on a trampoline)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMgbtFpivOA
IMO it can take the gymnast as long to correct bad technique as she has been doing a skill incorrectly . So if she's been whipping her head on back saltos for 3 years, it might take her just as long to end up with a technically correct back layout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMgbtFpivOA
Many coaches push little gymnasts through skills without doing enough drills. They let them get by with bad form AND bad technique. Sure, if you wait until a 6-year-old does all the set-up drills for a backhandspring or back salto completely without error in order to start working the skills as a whole, most of them will get bored and actually progress more slowly. So from time to time they need to just throw something (as long as it's safe). But if the coach abandons drills as soon as the gymnasts can make a skill somehow, they will end up with problems just like your daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMgbtFpivOA
If this is your coach's and your gym's philosophy, I would try to find a new gym that will patiently address your daughter's technical problems and actually knows how to correct them.
One thing I would try to talk to the coach about is overcorrecting. Maybe your daughter needs to just be left alone working on a skill without getting constant feedback on her mistakes. Especially because she seems to know what her mistakes are.

 

[cbifoja]

You didn't outright say, but it seemed to me from your description of the conversation it was almost like the coach didn't really care if your daughter stays in her group or not. Is this the coach of the level 5 team? What was the coach's reaction to these things? I guess it really depends on that. If the coach is frustrated but willing to channel that frustration by attending some TOPs type clinics or something with other girls similar age and level to get some ideas (many states have one) then that's not necessarily a bad thing. If she's just done because she can't work with a younger kid, then I think you'll need to move back a level or something.

I hope I didn't give this impression. I don't think this is the case for my DD and her coach at all. My DD has been with this coach in one way or another for the past 5 years and they are pretty close. HC has been DD's day to day coach for the past two years and they've had weekly privates for the same time period. Coach seemed very burdened by this issue rather than apathetic.

Moving back a level doesn't accomplish anything in this case as the L5 team is also coached by DD's coach. And lordy, DD is already mad at me for "not letting her" compete L7. She's probably run away if I brought up moving back to compulsories! LOL

 

[cbifoja]

eucoach...yes there are side stations set up during their bars rotation. There is usually a cast HS station, a clear hip station, a giants station, and a full routine station. The problem is that they are independent stations so she doesn't get specific feedback/coaching.

I asked her about the rebounder thing and she claims that she can cast with straight arms on that thing. Now, I can neither verify nor disagree with her statement and they don't do them often enough that I've ever paid much attention to it.

I asked her about the candlestick to stacked mats and she looked at me like I'd asked her to go boil a puppy. So I'm guessing that she doesn't do those.

I will take your suggestion of letting her work through without the correcting as an option to the coach. I have no idea if it will work or not but I'm open to just about anything.

You mentioned a gym change and that is something that I've considered for a variety of reasons. Of course, we have such a personal connection with our gym family that it is heartbreaking to think about but I honestly believe that our coach would understand if that is the path we choose.

 

[gymdog]

Okay, well this is a lot more information. I recommend you and the coach mutually agree to not stress out about this and give her time. I'm not saying train her any different as far as intensity, just without the stress. It's not like she's making no progress/going backwards or 16 years old and stuck in this level...I don't see why quitting would be necessary. Kids this age often have trouble "making corrections." It takes time and repetitions of the level of drill for the skill that they can do successfully, and then sequential progression through increasingly difficult drills and spotted reps until they are doing it independently. It sounds like the coach is doing this so the best thing to do is accept that everyone is doing their best and she will make progress by practicing.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

CB: " After talking to DD, we've discovered a problem. DD understands that she needs to make certain corrections but she doesn't know HOW to make the corrections."

The above is a powerfull message that your DD showed great courage and trust to make. Congrats on having a DD who can make such a statement. In my rotations I celebrate with my athletes when they make such a statement. Congrats to you and HC. A trusting enviornment appears to exist.

Use the trusting enviornment to your advantage. A motivated athlete is a GREAT place to begin changes. Use your HC as an asset. If they have been around awhile, they are aware skills age/develope at their pace. I imagne they are, as comes with the job positon, patient with motivated athletes. Many developments/corrections occur to be not at rational coach moments.. I believe this is because real athletes, DD's, are performing them. The variables are vast.

With the statement by the athlete that they do not "know how to make the corrections," I revert to my experience in knowing the athlete over time. I recall the skill maturity, state of skill related fitness, event experience and overall goals of the athlete and attempt to mesh with appropriate" vocab," medifore/analogy, vid support and the prefered learning style. If it is a frustrating correction in the eyes of the athlete, I stay away from having any eploration of other learning styles or tangential skill exploration, and stay focused. In many cases I have the athlete write the skill/corrections, agreed pathway to improving and goals on one of the many witeboards in the gym. I have them visit it frequently and carry the IPAD with them to compare "today's" efforts. I celebrate the commited effort and the accompaning small changes as frequently as I can. It helps feed the excitement and suppress any frustration.

I encoruage you to have pactience with the learning process. Learning corrections is part and parcel of this. Very few athletes learn perfectly executed skills and behaviors. Your DD is an athlete for life, a learning gymnast for a long time and hopefully one of the many learning adults.

My response touches on the more general or tactical side. I hope the sage wisdom of specifics have or will continue to assist you both. Best, SBG -

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Apologies….I went to edit and ended with a double post. ?? Apologies offered for the readers and OP. SBG-

 

[Nicole19]

I was a gymnast I had a similar problem. I could not feel what my body was actually doing. I thought I was making corrections!
It was very frustrating for me and my coaches so I can relate. The thing that helped me most of video or pictures of myself. When I saw how far off I was from ideal it was easier to understand what I should attempt to do with my body even if it felt exaggerated or silly it ended up looking correct.
I completely agree emphasize basics and side stations and everything else that's been said but I've been there and it does get easier!

 

[iwannacoach]

I was a gymnast I had a similar problem. I could not feel what my body was actually doing. I thought I was making corrections!....... It was very frustrating for me and my coaches so I can relate.

You're not alone. This is something that happens all the time, but often the gymnast and the coach completely miss the fact it's the source of the problem.

.........When I saw how far off I was from ideal it was easier to understand what I should attempt to do with my body even if it felt exaggerated or silly it ended up looking correct.
I completely agree emphasize basics and side stations and everything else that's been said but I've been there and it does get easier!

This is a gem of advice. Nothing can change unless it is forced to be done differently.... and that's going to produce a sensation that is so new that it will be noticed. Even fine tuning adjustments are going to be felt.

If you can't feel it...... you didn't do it. Try again and change something....anything, just to show you can make changes. Then keep trying until you find the change that floats the coach's boat.

 

[MaddieLynn]

I had this issue when learning back handsprings on floor. My coaches tried everything to get me to keep my legs straight and together, but it never clicked until I actually DID it. Before I couldn't feel my legs coming apart so I never knew if it was correct, but once I did it one time I realized that it has a very specific feeling I had never felt before. Now when coaching kids who have this same issue, I have them lie on the ground with legs straight and glued together, toes pointed. Then I cup my hand under their heels, lift a few inches above the ground, and have them use their core to raise their hips until their butt comes off the ground. It's the closest thing I've found to simulating the way it feels in a back handspring.