Insane amount of hours!

[Pineapple_Lump]

our level 4 is equal to your level 6 it is almost exactly equal to usag level 4. and judging by level 10s going 20hrs a week i think at such an amount at a low level is unnecessary and just burning them out.

It is not equal to level six. (did you not read the post by Aussie coach?)
The two levels would be almost equal if you exclude vault and our stricter split requirements on leaps. It may have been, but they have reined it in. It was getting out of hand, level fours training twenty hours a week being out of hand.

Coachinkal - it helps me to survive in the Wait Awhile state, or perhaps it’s just Perth that is backwards?

 

[Bobby]

I'm probably insufficiently qualified to have an opinion ... but it's never stopped me having one before.
I wonder if the low retention rate (of Oz gymnasts at higher levels) has less to do with overtraining at lower levels, and more to do with the separation of the elite stream at such a young age?? A lot of parents would be completely ignorant of their DDs' competition prospects until they get to the mid-levels, after which it's got to make both girls (and their paying parents) wonder why they'd invest so much time, money, and effort working toward Olympic standard skills (ie: which is what I gather Aussie level 10 is?) without ever being able to be in contention for a national team??
My observation has been that lots of the older girls seem to change over to related sports (trampoline, diving, etc) where they can still feel like they are working toward national selection, knowing that whenever they retire they'll have a sense of how close they came, instead of looking back on years in a sport where they were ruled out as having insufficient talent a decade earlier.
And whilst I can see why lots of effort is put into the "identifed talent", I'm not sure why the others are ruled out of contention altogether? The US equivalent might be only allowing girls from the TOPS training stream to ever contend for national selection.

 

[gymgurl]

I'm probably insufficiently qualified to have an opinion ... but it's never stopped me having one before.
I wonder if the low retention rate (of Oz gymnasts at higher levels) has less to do with overtraining at lower levels, and more to do with the separation of the elite stream at such a young age?? A lot of parents would be completely ignorant of their DDs' competition prospects until they get to the mid-levels, after which it's got to make both girls (and their paying parents) wonder why they'd invest so much time, money, and effort working toward Olympic standard skills (ie: which is what I gather Aussie level 10 is?) without ever being able to be in contention for a national team??
My observation has been that lots of the older girls seem to change over to related sports (trampoline, diving, etc) where they can still feel like they are working toward national selection, knowing that whenever they retire they'll have a sense of how close they came, instead of looking back on years in a sport where they were ruled out as having insufficient talent a decade earlier.
And whilst I can see why lots of effort is put into the "identifed talent", I'm not sure why the others are ruled out of contention altogether? The US equivalent might be only allowing girls from the TOPS training stream to ever contend for national selection.

Interesting opinion and that probably comes into play as well, but do you think that removing this system would do australia good as we don't have enough coaches that are able to reach that level.

Consider this: Australia's population is approximately 22 million this is smaller than Texas 24 million. How many coaches in Texas are there that coach you to that level?? certainly not a lot and not enough for every club to have one in fact there are probably very few clubs with this capability. I can think of WOGA any others?? considering there maybe 6 that can coach (as main coach) up to that level.

I think the system works well but does have its flaws and i think it should be easier for young nationals to swap to international levlels.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I'm probably insufficiently qualified to have an opinion ... but it's never stopped me having one before.
I wonder if the low retention rate (of Oz gymnasts at higher levels) has less to do with overtraining at lower levels, and more to do with the separation of the elite stream at such a young age?? A lot of parents would be completely ignorant of their DDs' competition prospects until they get to the mid-levels, after which it's got to make both girls (and their paying parents) wonder why they'd invest so much time, money, and effort working toward Olympic standard skills (ie: which is what I gather Aussie level 10 is?) without ever being able to be in contention for a national team??
My observation has been that lots of the older girls seem to change over to related sports (trampoline, diving, etc) where they can still feel like they are working toward national selection, knowing that whenever they retire they'll have a sense of how close they came, instead of looking back on years in a sport where they were ruled out as having insufficient talent a decade earlier.
And whilst I can see why lots of effort is put into the "identifed talent", I'm not sure why the others are ruled out of contention altogether? The US equivalent might be only allowing girls from the TOPS training stream to ever contend for national selection.

I'm not sure if thats the case, I often hear of kids in the US talking about olympic dreams, but its not that common in Australia. Gymnastics is not a well known sport, it is not strongly followed. It is on television only once every 4 years.

In the US girls win olympic gold medals for gymnastics. No Australian has ever won an olympic medal of any color for gymnastics. Kids just aren't driven by it at all.

Australian kids swim, Australians win medals in swimming and pretty much all kids swim. Its compulsory at school and its very rare to meet a kid who hasn't done swimming outside of school.

So its very much a culture thing. Our parents and our kids just don't aspire to do gymnastics internationally. They don't see it as even an option. This may change of course if Australia picks up in the rankings.

One of the reasons our kids don't last in the gym would also be because they are a lower level usually at an older age. I often read of 5 year old level 3's in the US/ In Australia that is rare. Most level 3's are 7-10 years old.

We tend to lose them around age 12 (12 is when they go to high school here). By 12 they are usually only around level 4-6. They turn 12 and things start to happen. Friends start to go out and they want to be a part of things instead of always having to be at gymnastics, they start to develop fear, they start to want to do other things.

Australian level 10 is not olympic standard skills. The average level 10 trains 20 hours a week. It isn't like the US level 10.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I've seen gyms here in North Carolina that work out level 4 for up to 30 hours per week and the kids home school at the gym. Our girls that worked out 9 hours per week competed just as well as these over worked kids. From what I've observed is that same team's level 5 group is about 1/2 the size of the level 4 group. Level 6 is about 1/3 the size of the level 5 group and it tapers off quickly from there. I've seen these same gyms at level 8 state meets with a hand full of 8 and 9 year olds that scored quite well. They also all had some sort of brace on either their knees, ankles, wrists or backs due to over work and injury.

I'd say more that 3 hours a work out and more than 3 work outs per week is a bit much.

If they are working level 4's 30 hours a week, then its almost certain that they will all be injured by level 8. Young bodies are not designed to withstand that sort of training. The damage it can do to have a child train this many hours so young will pretty much ensure not only injury but also that they will have physical problems for their whole lives.

It seems like coaches need a little more education on the physical development of children.

 

[Aussie_coach]

ok so it doesn't seem super excessive it just made me wonder because i know (according to interviews) that Shawn Johnson trains 25hrs a week this is only 5hrs extra realistically and she is an olympic gymnast so it just got me thinking.

Aussie Coach thats interesting that we burn off our gymnasts early i thought it was just our gym because we had a short closure and they all swapped gyms.

Do you or anyone think it would be better to limit hrs training at earlier levels to create longevity in the sport?

No its not just your club. The numbers in level 7-10 in the whole country are very low. They are working on increasing them and have taken some real positive steps with the new 2010 code of points.

I don't think limiting hours at the lower level will be the key to increasing longevity in the sport. It may help a little, but there are deeper issue's that need to be addressed.

 

[Bobby]

.... Our parents and our kids just don't aspire to do gymnastics internationally. They don't see it as even an option. This may change of course if Australia picks up in the rankings....

I'm not sure that a low expectation of medals ever dissuades anyone from wanting to qualify for the olympics?
And anyway, gymnastics is an individual sport. Young Aussie hopefuls aren't going to care about team prospects - they'll just care that an Aussie got one of the 3 most coveted medals at worlds recently.
And I'd honestly be astonished if many parents would be willing to commit the time, money, and effort required to have their girls train 12+ hrs pw if they knew at the outset there was zero chance of a 'future'. I seriously think parents faced with this scenario quietly conclude their DD must be very talented and (therefore) have a chance at international competition. Especially in context of (National levels) competition teams being 'invitation only' and offered to a minority of starters.
In fact I don't think any coach/club would ever dare spell out in their enrolment info that it's not possible that specific girls will never 'make it'. In fact our club just mailed info to us for the new year which specified that girls can change streams at any level (it was a nice little graph showing for example that you can change over from level 10 to international level 10). But based on info here this could reasonably be regarded as false advertising (not that I'd personally complain).
I'd love to see any Aussie club test how big a team they retain - after they advise their (non-elite) team families that the girls will never be in contention for international competition, and that they have been "selected" for ... what??
What is it that they are selected for? Why not let everyone train together (state and nationals combined), and only 'select' elites - so that selection is meaningful??
Any takers on full disclosure to team families (of their girls' guaranteed lack of future in the sport, while the girls are still young enough for their parents to steer them other directions)??
As for increasing retention at higher levels, I'd be willing to bet that lots would continue if they were allowed to pursue individual apparatus - and maybe even compete different levels on different apparatus. Given that they're below elite level - and unable to ever transition to elite level - why not??

 

[socko]

The Aussie system sounds kind of like an all or nothing approach but I don't know if that's why the girls wouldn't stay with the sport if they truly loved it.

Here in the US, gymnasts who don't continue with (or even pursue) elite can also pursue college gymnastics and that is in fact what most of the talented Level 10s (and some 9s) do. I have never viewed my daughter's gymnastics as something she would have to abandon if she could never make a National team (?!) but as something she had a passion for and was pretty decent at and wanted to do. She's been a Level 10 for a number of years and has done well and she's happy so we continue on. I still have to keep an eye on the # of hours in the gym though because I want to keep her healthy.

 

[ZJsMom]

\.

Consider this: Australia's population is approximately 22 million this is smaller than Texas 24 million. How many coaches in Texas are there that coach you to that level?? certainly not a lot and not enough for every club to have one in fact there are probably very few clubs with this capability. I can think of WOGA any others?? considering there maybe 6 that can coach (as main coach) up to that level.

.

How many gyms are there with elites or elite hopefuls in Texas?
1.WOGA
2.WGA Texans
3. Metroplex
4. Eagles Wings
5. Texas Dreams
6. Stars
7. Capital
8. Olympic Hills
THat's off the top of my head and I'm not from Texas. Someone else could probably name more.

ETA I just thought of a couple more-- HUGS, Denton.

 

[gymgurl]

How many gyms are there with elites or elite hopefuls in Texas?
1.WOGA
2.WGA Texans
3. Metroplex
4. Eagles Wings
5. Texas Dreams
6. Stars
7. Capital
8. Olympic Hills
THat's off the top of my head and I'm not from Texas. Someone else could probably name more.

ETA I just thought of a couple more-- HUGS, Denton.

OK well you have me there but that would mean we could only choose people from 8 gyms throughout the country. surely one of the most talented gymnasts are not at these gyms so limits our choice further where as people can choose to "try out" for high performance gyms when they are young to give them a chance at making elite. however i do see that our system has flaws and can be unfair to late bloomers.

 

[lil_gymnast_alanna]

Just a quick comment on the Australian level 10 (National stream I assume you're talking about). A few of our Senior girls, Chloe Sims is a great example, have burnt out from Senior International competition and headed to National 10 after retireinmg for a year or two. It's not quite like Olympic standard, it's more of a watered down version of it with only one single bar release appearing in routines and only one or two beam connections, you get the picture Mind you, Chloe Sims did end up winning Nationals at level 10 which suggests that even though she'd retired for a couple of years, she still had great form.

 

[gymbug86]

hey so i am on my high school team we train about 12 hours a week!
or more
and we have a meet every week witch is 6 hours if u want to include that!