Coaches Introducing Back Tucks

[coachmolly]

I feel like this is a silly question, but I have 2 girls who have done all the drills and received all of the corrections as their teammates, but they still insist of throwing their head and shoulders back into their tucks- on the trampoline, the floor, off a block, anywhere. None of my other girls have been quite so persistent with this problem and I'm not sure where to turn next.
Both are exceptionally bright kids who typically grasp corrections very well. They both have good body awareness and are very strong- which I think might be part of the problem. Because they can whip themselves around and land on their feet they think it must be correct?
We have tried straight jumps- lots of straight jumps. Straight jumps to me hand spotting them through the motion. Tall straight jumps up onto a mat stack into a backward roll (cheese mat at the top of the mat stack). Lying on the floor stretched and rotating hips over. Do I just keep repeating the same things even though they have not shown any progress? Or does anyone have any new ideas? It's not a crucial skill at this point, but I know both girls are getting frustrated because they are 2 of my best tumblers.
I know I was a persistent head thrower when I was learning to do a tuck at their age, but I cannot for the life of me remember what finally made it click.

 

[Faith]

Do they have home trampolines? I can pretty much spot the ones who do as they all think they can "flip", but their technique is appalling, chuck head and whip round.

I'd stick with a proper trampoline for now. Proper trampoline technique, make them start and land on the cross, and focus on the "set". Lots of back landings too, as they have to jump back with their chin down or they'll feel their head "whip". Progress to pullovers. Can you borrow a trampoline coach to take them for a session?

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

make sure you are really working the hip lift to get over so they have confidence in the correct technique. Tuck leg lifts are another way to work this action for variety.

One trick to help these kids (if they can do it by themselves on tramp) is to get them to lace their fingers together behind their heads to back salto, just make sure they are still going to rotate.

 

[coachmolly]

Do they have home trampolines? I can pretty much spot the ones who do as they all think they can "flip", but their technique is appalling, chuck head and whip round.

I'd stick with a proper trampoline for now. Proper trampoline technique, make them start and land on the cross, and focus on the "set". Lots of back landings too, as they have to jump back with their chin down or they'll feel their head "whip". Progress to pullovers. Can you borrow a trampoline coach to take them for a session?

One does have a trampoline where she was self taught, the other does not. We do not have a trampoline coach, unfortunately. But I will try to utilize the trampoline more.

 

[coachmolly]

make sure you are really working the hip lift to get over so they have confidence in the correct technique. Tuck leg lifts are another way to work this action for variety.

One trick to help these kids (if they can do it by themselves on tramp) is to get them to lace their fingers together behind their heads to back salto, just make sure they are still going to rotate.

I had not thought of tuck leg lifts, I might give that a shot. Maybe just giving them the wording of lifting their hips vs. not throwing their head will be helpful.

 

[Jenny]

Stick a sock under their chin and spot loads of standing ones from a block trying to hold the sock under their chin. And it will just take time. Just keep doing the drills you have done and that have been suggested.

And ban them from any on the home trampolines.

 

[Aero]

Teach them standing gainers. These will need to be spotted.

 

[Jenny]

Teach them standing gainers. These will need to be spotted.

I haven't heard that idea before. I always think of a gainer to a very different movement to a back salto . Can you explain how it will work?

 

[Aero]

I haven't heard that idea before. I always think of a gainer to a very different movement to a back salto . Can you explain how it will work?

A gainer is named such because it "gains" distance (usually forward distance), like in a gainer pike dismount off the long end of the beam. A gainer off the short end of the beam, like with a gainer full off the side, gains sideways distance. A good standing back tuck should not gain distance in any direction. That is to say, it should travel straight up and down. Leaning is what causes travel in all saltos, and travel means that the height of the salto will be decreased by a degree; the more severe the lean is, the more height is lost. Throwing the head back further decreases height, not to mention creates a loss of control in the skill.

All of this is to say that by teaching a standing gainer, it will sort of be like over-correcting the problem. To me, it seems like the girls are finding it difficult to feel the difference between the way they are doing the skill currently, and the correct way it should be done (no head throw or lean); the difference may be too slight or small for them to feel a huge difference for when they do it right. Therefore, by teaching them a back tuck that travels forward, it serves almost like learning a new skill, thus they will be able to latch on to the corrections better since it will feel quite different from what they are used to feeling in a back tuck. Also, throwing their head back in a gainer will feel ridiculous to them and will seem much more dangerous than if they were to do it in their "normal" back tucks. Gainers also have the ability to teach them to go really high in the air, since it's easier to jump high going forwards than backwards. The only trade-off is that angular momentum is a bit more difficult to generate in a gainer. In other words, it will be a little harder for them to rotate.

I recommended spotting because these will feel scary and foreign at first. Drills should be used for a few weeks leading up to the spotting phase, though, with extra attention placed on head position in every drill, on every rep, always. Do not work normal standing back tucks during this time, as it will confuse the neural programming they receive during the drills. They have to understand that the head being neutral has zero negative effects on the ability to rotate, and actually, it usually helps with spacial awareness, whereas throwing the head back (which may seem like it facilitates the rotation) can only negatively affect the skill.

Here are three examples of me practicing these back tuck techniques at an open gym one night. There's one with backward travel, one with forward travel (gainer), and a true, correct standing back tuck, which has no travel at all. Also note, I keep a neutral head position in all three examples.




PS - I call back tucks that travel backwards "losers," since they're losing distance. Every time one of my girls travels, I call them a loser. They don't want to be called a loser, now do they?!

 

[gymdog]

I think a BACK tuck should travels backwards - not so much that you loose height, but it should travel backwards for sure.

 

[Aero]

I think a BACK tuck should travels backwards - not so much that you loose height, but it should travel backwards for sure.

I'm talking about the ideal model of the skill, which is the best and most efficient way to execute the skill. It is the most effective way of teaching all backward saltos to set high, it teaches how to keep the head neutral, it teaches the gymnast to use the hips to generate lift and rotation, and it gives the skill the most possible amplitude, too. There's also the benefits of landing light on the feet, in a standing position, which provides greater control and is easier on the joints.

The word "back" is there only to refer to the direction of the rotation. I do not see any benefits for a back tuck to travel backwards.

 

[eucoach]

Have you tried the following drill:
Jump from a raised surface into a (mini) trampoline and jump forward onto stacked mats (not much higher than the trampoline). They should land on their backs in a layout shape. This makes them rotate backwards while jumping forwards. They absolutely cannot throw their heads and need to use their hips to initiate rotation. They can still get away with a little shoulder lean but IMO this is one of the best drills to make them understand how to rotate backwards.

Another drill:
Stack up mats in front of (any) trampoline. The gymnasts has to jump forward from the stacked mats into the trampoline and jump back onto the mats into a candle stick position (and later back tuck to stand or back layout to stomach) onto the mats. This also works well with "head throwers".

But as with all drills you have to give them time to figure it out though. Some kids just take a lot longer to get something - especially if they have been performing something incorrectly for a long time.

 

[Jenny]

Thanks @Aero that is a really good explanation.

 

[gymdog]

I'm talking about the ideal model of the skill, which is the best and most efficient way to execute the skill. It is the most effective way of teaching all backward saltos to set high, it teaches how to keep the head neutral, it teaches the gymnast to use the hips to generate lift and rotation, and it gives the skill the most possible amplitude, too. There's also the benefits of landing light on the feet, in a standing position, which provides greater control and is easier on the joints.

The word "back" is there only to refer to the direction of the rotation. I do not see any benefits for a back tuck to travel backwards.

So you think a double back shouldn't rotate backwards?

 

[titanic]

I don't like the idea of trying to stay in one place on a back tuck, usually that teaches the gymnast to push their hips forward which is a bad habit when they move onto layouts and harder back skills.

 

[Aero]

So you think a double back shouldn't rotate backwards?

A double back is an entirely different matter. That skill requires far more angular momentum, so it is necessary to travel backwards. This is because leaning backwards helps add some extra rotation, making the skill able to rotate enough. For multiple flipping skills, it is necessary to sacrifice some height in order to gain rotation.

However, we're talking about standing, single back tucks, and how to correct a head throwing issue. A very different matter. To be fair, sure, a back tuck that travels a little bit isn't going to hurt anybody, but why in the world would I not hold my gymnasts to the ideal model of the skill, and teach them to strive for the best possible way of doing it? This is the way I coach, and I am just sharing my thoughts and ideas with @coachmolly and @Jenny.

I don't like the idea of trying to stay in one place on a back tuck, usually that teaches the gymnast to push their hips forward which is a bad habit when they move onto layouts and harder back skills.

This is confusing to me. The hips are precisely what makes everything happen in the first place. Without pushing the hips up and forward, nothing will happen, unless the shoulders are thrown backwards aggressively, which is super dangerous. During the jump, if the hips are pushed forward and the shoulders are pushed backward in equal amounts, it creates the rotation while still allowing the body to stay centered over the spot it took off from. This hips/shoulders "shearing" technique is seen in trampoline all the time, it's how they are able to do triple somersaults, with or without twists while still staying right over that cross at all times. Trampoline is the most pure form of technique, but obviously we can't do things in WAG/MAG the exact same as trampoline because, well, the tumbling is not done on trampolines. Things have to be adjusted for the lack of height. However, a standing back tuck can and should stay close to the purest technique possible.

Basically, you have to use the hips when flipping. Can you imagine trying to do a double layout without blasting the hips out and up as aggressively as possible?! You would DIE. Skills that should travel backward a lot, like whips and back handsprings, yeah, it would be a bad idea to push the hips forwards, because that would cause undercutting. That's not the case on saltos, though. We could get into the discussion on saltos that should travel, too, like for connecting front layouts and front twisting, but that's a whole other topic. It really comes down to the objective of the skill. I am just explaining how I would fix a bad habit in a child trying to fix her standing back tuck.

 

[gymdog]

Well double layouts typically travel pretty far backwards so I guess I'm not sure I think that what you're saying is consistent with hip lift. Personally I think back tucks will travel slightly backwards when done with correct technique. Also, if we're talking about females doing a standing tuck, it will not be done in place. will not have the vertical jump and center of gravity.

 

[titanic]

A double layout is all shoulders, not really hips. Or at least when I did double layouts I never thought about my hips, just throwing my shoulders back aggressively.

But @Aero there is a difference between hips going forward and hips going up. You want hips to go up on a back tuck. You don't want hips to go forward on a back tuck. The core should stay tight in the stretch of a set for the back tuck which allows the gymnast to get the momentum they need to finish the salto.