is 4 almost 5 yrs old too young for bridges/kickover?

[EmmasMommy]

Defensive, no. Prone to common sense and balanced thinking that drives most people crazy? Maybe

My point is only that a 5th birthday won't magically change things. For some kids it might happen a little earlier, for some a little later.

Back problems can be caused by a lot of things. A lot of people spank their kids (I don't, but where I'm from, it's legal!) and that can cause back problems in life, too. I'm not saying to ignore things that can cause back problems, but many things can be a cause and I think people have to look at their children as individuals, and not start anything before their kid is physically ready. That is the key.

Even if they wait until 5 they should look at their kid individually, as for some kids 5 might not be physically ready. 6 might not even be old enough. It doesn't happen like magic on a certain birthday. (Not sure how this common knowledge is defensive lol)

An important thing also to consider with the spine is the muscles surrounding the spine.

A lot of considerations should be taken with gymnastics as a whole. Even at a young age, diet should be considered. I'm not talking about staying thin. I'm talking about making sure a child gets enough of the nutrients they need to keep their bodies strong and healthy. Making sure they get enough calcium (most kids in general don't), making sure they get enough carbs to fuel them, enough fats (the healthy kind) to sustain their fast little metabolisms, and enough protein to keep up their strength. Also with diet, I would suggest not going to some online site and looking for a print out, but going to a trusted pediatrician with an excellent reputation who knows YOUR child. Talk to them. They might have feedback or they might be able to recommend you to a preferred nutritionalist. But what they recommend for one kid might not be exactly the same for another kid (even though there ARE "general guidelines" out there).

The general guidelines usually are the play-it-safe guidelines that help the parents who can't be bothered with going to a real doctor. Sure, many kids will develop at an average rate. Some faster. Some slower. I'd personally go on the chance that my child was a little behind, so I wouldn't end up following a general guideline that my child still wasn't ready for.

I wouldn't make a habit of raising kids based on such guidelines, anyway. For example, some kids might need more iron than average. Some kids might absorb another nutrient too easily, and eating the recommended amount could be unhealthy for them (as sometimes too much of one nutrient can affect how the body absorbs other nutrients).

Long story short: There's a lot involved in physiology and biology. Each body is unique. While general guidelines are NICE they are no substitute for seeing a trusted doctor who can monitor your child as an individual. A parent should still educate themselves (best way to spot to a wacky doctor!) but I just don't see a viable substitute to receiving care for your child as an individual. I can't speak for all pediatricians, but ours run a lot of routine tests. This may be because she is a special needs doctor who specializes in looking at childhood development, both physical and mental.

I can see that most 5 and 6 year olds wouldn't be physically ready for bridges. There are some I wouldn't have doing certain other skills, either, if they were my kids, more for fear of breaking a bone easily, but I just figure their parent, like me, would have already taken their kid to a pediatrician to see what was appropriate physical activity for them. I see why 5-6 is the general suggestion in the event parents aren't going to see a doctor who knows their child personally. They have to play it safe. There are a lot of people out there who engage in activities like this without ever talking to a pediatrician or making sure their kid has had any kind of physical check up, let alone one to assess their readiness for gymnastics and what they should/shouldn't do while there (as an individual).

I think it's also important to bring them in regularly and keep up communication on the subject. We had to talk to ours about Emma's headaches, which we worse when doing bridges (a totally different problem!) Hers was from sinuses, something that will probably still bother her (if it's not treated) no matter what age she is. So in her case, bridges could have been a bad idea forever if we hadn't taken her to a pediatrician. Just sayin'. An online guide wouldn't have told me that.


A smart gym/coach will have you talk to your pediatrician before starting gymnastics . . . and smart parent would have already done that anyway, as they would do so for ALL physical activities before starting.

 

[MdGymMom01]

Here is an article that talks about young children and bridging. This doctor is saying that kids under age 7 should not do backbends:

Link Removed

This is a particularly concerning statement:
"Back bends and other activities that cause the spine to curve backward can cause fractures of the spine in young gymnasts (5 to 7 years old). These fractures do not cause problems at that young age and may go unnoticed for years. However, teenagers who remain active in gymnastics may develop back pain because of these earlier fractures. Teenage gymnasts may need bracing or surgery to treat the fractures. A good way to prevent this injury is to not allow children to do deep back bends until they are at least 7 years old."

The thing that alarmed me about the article was that spine fractures can occur in kids age 5-7 but go unnoticed because they do not cause any problems yet. It isn't till the teenage years that the untreated fractures start causing the problems.

I had back surgery at the age of 26 (from years of running) so I understand the seriousness of back issues. Avoiding severe back strain is always the best option especially in very young children.

 

[EmmasMommy]

Thanks for sharing the article! Sounds like there is a disagreement somewhere in the medical community. That excerpt talks about 5 TO 7. (some people here were saying over 5 or 6 is fine) I'm surprised the doctor specified 5-7 and didn't say "under the age of 7" and I'd be curious why not.

A lot of that article seems to speak about training "too hard" or "too much" or doing back bands "too deep". I wonder if there is a lesson in moderation there?

I like that the doctor talked about conditioning and strengthening muscles around joints to prevent injury. That is something that has always been recommended to us as well. If the muscles can carry the work, the skeletal system takes less stress.

So, given this information, how many people here who said back bends are fine at 5 or 6 will now start waiting until after the age of 7? Are they worried now?

I'd personally love to see the studies and what the variables and controls in all of the studies were, along with what exactly is proven. To be honest, that article when read in context, has me more concerned with arms (wrists, shoulders, and elbows).

When i looked this up, I did see advice that said not to perform a bridge before the age of 5 *unless under the direction of a qualified coach*. Something tells me this is more about how it's being done, how often, etc. Like injuries might be a possibility if the bridges are performed incorrectly, too often, or with too deep of a bend at a young age.

That said, the article Md posted makes more sense with the 5-7 age gap. I can't buy into anyone saying something "magic" happens at a certain age, but to speak of something happening sometime over a 2 year span seems more reasonable to me.

There's probably varying degrees of cautiousness.
~Never do gymnastics (most cautious)
~Don't bridge before age 7
~Don't bridge before age 5
~Don't bridge before coach and child's doctor say your child is ready
~bridging whenever your kid starts doing it
etc.

I will say I get concerned when I see some of the flexibility training in some other countries, which seems forced, painful, and happening to 3 year olds. I hope that is not common and is just news hype.

 

[gymgal]

A smart gym/coach will have you talk to your pediatrician before starting gymnastics . . . and smart parent would have already done that anyway, as they would do so for ALL physical activities before starting.

I agree, but pediatricians won't be very knowledgeable in this area. A pediatric orthopedist or pediatric sports medicine Dr would be the ones to consult. Ours did xrays and full exam. But since most families won't go that far, it's best to follow the guidelines. In fact there are many specialist out there who believe unsupported bending of the back should not occur until age 7, to ensure all kids' bodies are ready.

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[Deleted member D3987]

Perhaps the doctors on the message board should weigh in on this then? I have been unable to find any information showing that working on bridges for minutes a week is harmful for 5 year olds. I have read that competitive gymnasts, swimmers, and dancers who train excessive hours as young children can have problems, but that does not mean that some bridges are bad. I've also read that people can die from drinking too much water, but here I am sending my kid to gym with a water bottle.

it's out there. coaches have this information available to them. i understand your tongue and cheek, but kids don't need to be doing bridges until near 7 years of age. conditioning and flexibility of the entire anatomy is more conducive to long term health and good gymnastics and more than bridges will ever be. that's all.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

So should I look for a new gym since these coaches seem to be ok with bridging at 4 almost 5 yrs old? What age it is OK to do bridging/back walk over type things? I personally have horrendous back problems from years and years of sports (which ironically included very little gymnastics so don't think that could be to blame)...ended up varsity lettering in 6 different sports and played very high level volleyball (nationals, all american etc...) and then after already having 2 herniated discs from all of that was in a car accident, now have 3 herniated and 5 protruding discs...all that to say I am VERy concerned with anything that could potentially harm their backs. My girls are very lean but seem to be pretty ripped for 4 almost 5 yr olds...their arms are cut (you can see them when they do some skills) and literally almost have 6 pack abs which just seems a lil odd, but they do. That may be why they seem so strong (one is already able to do a chin up). They do one-armed cartwheels just on their own and one does one-armed round offs too, again not taught at gym...we just finished our first 10 sessions.
I really like a couple of the instructors at their gym but don't want to potentially hurt my girls' backs. Thanks so much for any additional insight! I appreciate all of your input so much, so glad I found this forum so early!

no. tell them to show you, by way of documentation or published literature, that bridges and back bends are okay and accepted in this age range. and you know what they'll find in their search? the complete opposite of OKAY. that's how you educate them.

and as i have posted before, contact Dr. Larry Nassar and posit the same question. he is the team Doc for USAG.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Taylee there is no harm talking to your coaching and explaining you have had back difficulties and don't want them to start bridges for another 6 months or so.

It is also how they do a bridge that is important - How long do they hold it, are legs bent or straight, apart or together, arms bent or straight, arms and legs close together so shoulders are right over hands or further apart so a more gentle curve. Are lots of warming up exercises done first, How many bridges are done each session, how many sessions a week. Are the bridges done on the floor or with the feet raised up on a block. There are so many variables. A smart coach will be doing not too many, not too often, not held long, not on the floor at 5. Is your club thinking carefully about how hard this skill is on little spines or do they just push them up and hold for 30 seconds 10 times each session.

I personally think they should only be doing raised bridges with their feet up on a block or panel mat until they are at least 6. It takes a long time for the shoulders to become flexible and strong enough to safely bridge on the floor. Preventing stress on the lower vertibrae is down to the child having flexible enough shoulders and strong enough arms and legs to hold the correct position AND the child understanding the correct position and having the focus to use it.

Emmas mommy seems very defensive about this issue but I would urge you to listen to Dunno, he really is the expert here. Also if you search this forum for threads about back pain, back fractures, back walkover pain, back bend pain it is very very common and very very scary. It seems to really kick in around level 5 where there is a focus on the back walkover on beam ready for level 6. However the damage is done by the time it shows up.

And before anyone points out there is a bridge kickover in level 3 and you CAN compete that at 5. Yes I know. But personally I wouldn't start competing before age 7 anyway. I would rather see children start competing at age 7 and go straight in at level 3, 4 or 5 whatever is more suitable for them. Much better to perfect basics for 2 years before you compete.

wow! just wow! i could not have said it better or more simply than that.

 

[EmmasMommy]

you make a good point. I guess I forget this because my kids' pediatrician IS a specialist. We've had to have pediatrician who specializes in early youth physical/cognitive development because of our oldest son. I really think that whatever anyone decides, the best bet is to take their child to the right doctors, through the right channels, who can help them make this decision for their child as an individual.

If guidelines say "it's OK at 5-7" chances are there will be 4 year olds who is it fine for and 8 year olds it isn't. These things are based on averages, and each child is unique. I personally wouldn't have my kids doing anything in any sport at any age without first getting doctor approval. Honestly, I don't think my 4 yo or my almost 8 year old are in any condition to be bridges, and that has nothing to do with their age. I think a smart coach, like a smart doctor, will look at a child's physical readiness (natural flexibility and strength) instead of just saying "ok, you had the right birthday, it's automatically ok for you to do this skill now.

Personally I'd be more alarmed by a coach that does think that way. I prefer coaches that look at a child's readiness based on THEM not based on a birthday. There may be things in the future that my daughter is old enough to do, and I hope her coaches, if she's still in the sport then, would be able to look at whether she's ready. That's what I care about. My kid and what she is physically and mentally ready for. Not a magic number.

It's because of that that I have other kids that aren't in sports at all, even though they are old enough. Age isn't everything. I'd say, in fact, other things are much more important factors in considering readiness. Those factors may be more present at certain ages, but that is not a guarantee for any one child. It IS a shame more people don't include doctors who know their children in suggestions like these.

I usually look at it this way:
Does my daughter think she's ready? Her doctors? Her coaches? Those three factors are more important to me than age. Age can be deceiving, and it goes both ways, not just for kids who do things "2 months too soon" but also kids who maybe need to wait another 6 months-a year, even if they are "old enough".

 

[SGMOM]

But as there is absolutely no need to be doing bridges or back walkovers at age 4 or even 5 really why bother taking the risk. I just read today Sabrina Vega didn't even start gymnastics until aged 6. A smart coach and a smart gym will have plenty of other challenging and enjoyable things lined up for your kid to do.

you make a good point. I guess I forget this because my kids' pediatrician IS a specialist. We've had to have pediatrician who specializes in early youth physical/cognitive development because of our oldest son. I really think that whatever anyone decides, the best bet is to take their child to the right doctors, through the right channels, who can help them make this decision for their child as an individual.

If guidelines say "it's OK at 5-7" chances are there will be 4 year olds who is it fine for and 8 year olds it isn't. These things are based on averages, and each child is unique. I personally wouldn't have my kids doing anything in any sport at any age without first getting doctor approval. Honestly, I don't think my 4 yo or my almost 8 year old are in any condition to be bridges, and that has nothing to do with their age. I think a smart coach, like a smart doctor, will look at a child's physical readiness (natural flexibility and strength) instead of just saying "ok, you had the right birthday, it's automatically ok for you to do this skill now.

Personally I'd be more alarmed by a coach that does think that way. I prefer coaches that look at a child's readiness based on THEM not based on a birthday. There may be things in the future that my daughter is old enough to do, and I hope her coaches, if she's still in the sport then, would be able to look at whether she's ready. That's what I care about. My kid and what she is physically and mentally ready for. Not a magic number.

It's because of that that I have other kids that aren't in sports at all, even though they are old enough. Age isn't everything. I'd say, in fact, other things are much more important factors in considering readiness. Those factors may be more present at certain ages, but that is not a guarantee for any one child. It IS a shame more people don't include doctors who know their children in suggestions like these.

I usually look at it this way:
Does my daughter think she's ready? Her doctors? Her coaches? Those three factors are more important to me than age. Age can be deceiving, and it goes both ways, not just for kids who do things "2 months too soon" but also kids who maybe need to wait another 6 months-a year, even if they are "old enough".

no. tell them to show you, by way of documentation or published literature, that bridges and back bends are okay and accepted in this age range. and you know what they'll find in their search? the complete opposite of OKAY. that's how you educate them.

and as i have posted before, contact Dr. Larry Nassar and posit the same question. he is the team Doc for USAG.

Really?! Because, after some research, I found the following:

Dr. Nassar currently is employed by Twistars. Twistars, if you read their team manual, has USAG Level 3. USAG Level 3's are 5 years old. They do bridges.

 

[SGMOM]

Just for fun, here's a link to the Twistars team manual: Link Removed here's a link to Dr. Nassars Twistars page: Link Removed guess he changed his mind?

 

[gymgal]

Really?! Because, after some research, I found the following:

Dr. Nassar currently is employed by Twistars. Twistars, if you read their team manual, has USAG Level 3. USAG Level 3's are 5 years old. They do bridges.

Just for fun, here's a link to the Twistars team manual: Link Removed here's a link to Dr. Nassars Twistars page: Link Removed guess he changed his mind?

The links are not working. But I did find where they are supposed to go to and there is nothing that would make me think that this dr. has changed his mind about anything. Being a team dr does not mean he has to agree with everything the gym is doing. And presumably if he has contact with all the gymnasts, he is evaluating their readiness. Nor is there anything to indicate that Twistars is ignoring the "age " guideline. Just because a child CAN compete L3 at 5yrs doesn't mean a gym will allow them to and even if they did, it doesn't mean they are "uptraining" those skills before age 5. But more to the point for Twistars, going to the photo page, L3-4 preteam shows girls who look at least 6-7 yrs old. And since these levels are their preteam and their meets are for fun, they may not even be doing the USAG routines.

On another note - They have a lot of gymnasts!!! And in the upper levels too. I like their guidelines for moving up too - it's in the handbook. In addition to other high standards, they require a 32 in an in-house meet at the level you will be competing at for that season. I wish this was a mandate of USAG - In fact, I wonder if maybe this was the original intention of the mobility scores (32 to score into the new level, rather than score out of the old).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i'm not going to debate this. i know John and Larry personally and have intimate knowledge of their program and of Larry's medical opinions on young and underdeveloped/immature spines doing back bends. EVERYONE has level 3 in their program. they just might not call it that. the level system is for you parents...not for coaches that know what their doing. and playing with backbends every now and again is not the same as training them. THAT'S ALL.

now, go ASK him yourself. Link Removed

 

[Deleted member D3987]

The links are not working. But I did find where they are supposed to go to and there is nothing that would make me think that this dr. has changed his mind about anything. Being a team dr does not mean he has to agree with everything the gym is doing. And presumably if he has contact with all the gymnasts, he is evaluating their readiness. Nor is there anything to indicate that Twistars is ignoring the "age " guideline. Just because a child CAN compete L3 at 5yrs doesn't mean a gym will allow them to and even if they did, it doesn't mean they are "uptraining" those skills before age 5. But more to the point for Twistars, going to the photo page, L3-4 preteam shows girls who look at least 6-7 yrs old. And since these levels are their preteam and their meets are for fun, they may not even be doing the USAG routines.

On another note - They have a lot of gymnasts!!! And in the upper levels too. I like their guidelines for moving up too - it's in the handbook. In addition to other high standards, they require a 32 in an in-house meet at the level you will be competing at for that season. I wish this was a mandate of USAG - In fact, I wonder if maybe this was the original intention of the mobility scores (32 to score into the new level, rather than score out of the old).

and John and Kathryn do not compete level 3. and they don't have young children doing back bends either. and you were spot on again. i'll bet you're a very fastidious coach. we need more like you.

 

[gymdog]

i'm not going to debate this. i know John and Larry personally and have intimate knowledge of their program and of Larry's medical opinions on young and underdeveloped/immature spines doing back bends. EVERYONE has level 3 in their program. they just might not call it that. the level system is for you parents...not for coaches that know what their doing. and playing with backbends every now and again is not the same as training them. THAT'S ALL.

Not sure why the handbook was brought up as evidence that they would support this since when I went to the part about pre-team groups, it specifically said they were for ages 6-8. I assume they have an advanced rec class for invited 4-5 year olds like most big gyms (simply because these kids would have done a year or two years and would have mastered certain basic skills and etiquette as opposed to a 5 year old doing class for the first time). But there does not appear to be any information indicating that they have 4-5 year olds performing or competing level 3/4 skills.

 

[gymgal]

and John and Kathryn do not compete level 3. and they don't have young children doing back bends either. and you were spot on again. i'll bet you're a very fastidious coach. we need more like you.

no, just a parent who loves gymnastics, reads a lot, and has quite a bit of pediatric medical knowledge.... And as for the specifics of the back, my dd has a medical condition that could have predisposed her to back problems so we had to go through all the evaluations before she could advance in gym.

trust me, I don't pretend to know a lot about this sport. That's why I'm here - to ask questions and to learn... but that last note about Twistsars just felt wrong and i had to check it out....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

here's a bit of the forewarning coaches are educated on. they have no excuse to not know about this issue. and i'll spend a bit more time tomorrow and post up some other articles if i can figure out how to scan and post it here. there was an excellent article last month in USECA by Dr. Bill Sands on this very issue.

Technique - July 2011 - Vol. 31, #7

[url]http://issuu.com/usagymnastics/docs/techniqueseptoct2011_2?mode=window&viewMode=doublePage
[/URL]

 

[taylee]

here's a bit of the forewarning coaches are educated on. they have no excuse to not know about this issue. and i'll spend a bit more time tomorrow and post up some other articles if i can figure out how to scan and post it here. there was an excellent article last month in USECA by Dr. Bill Sands on this very issue.

Technique - July 2011 - Vol. 31, #7

Technique - Sept./Oct. 2011 - Vol. 31, #9

Thank you so much for all of this information! Again I am VERY new to this sport and feel so unknowledgable which greatly annoys me =) I know so much about so many other sports but ironically not the one my girls seem to LOVE.
So here is a question since they were asked to join the "team" and I believe start competing at level 2 it seems if I am against bridges and from what I am inferring here anything that has that position (kickovers, back hand springs, backbends etc????) is it possible for them to compete in level 2 or 3. It is NOT about them winning at this age, but will they be allowed to compete or participate (if it isn't a true competition) without doing some of these skills? If not maybe they don't compete until they are 7? More concerned with their health than trophies!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i have seen several gyms eliminate the back bend from the routine when they compete it. same with mill circles. although the gymnast receives a deduction (so what) the coaches are free to take out what they are not 'comfortable' with for whatever reason.

 

[Galadriel]

why doesn't op private message dunno with her location for a recommendation of good gyms in her area?

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[taylee]

i have seen several gyms eliminate the back bend from the routine when they compete it. same with mill circles. although the gymnast receives a deduction (so what) the coaches are free to take out what they are not 'comfortable' with for whatever reason.

Sorry to pick your brain so much,but I have been tipped off that you know what you are talking about are Mill circles bad too...anything else I should be looking out for...yeesh and I thought we were just going to the gym to jump and roll etc haha!