Anon Is HOPES possible/worth it for my kid?

[JBS]

Soooo... This seems like two different and equally valid coaching styles.
I'm not trying to harsh your buzz. Your daughter sounds like an amazingly talented human. I love hearing how proud you are of her.
But (sorry - so very sorry to neg) artistic gymnastics is a sport of millimeters. Perfection. Tweaking form and balance. Correcting asymmetries.
Should you learn a double when your single is cockeyed? Or you keep forgetting to point your toes? Or you aren't utterly mindful of the position of your body?
I don't know. It's probably as safe as any advanced tumbling class, but IMHO the choice you're making is the athleticism over the art. WHICH IS FINE. But I just wanted to articulate it.

Totally understand your logic here… but it really doesn’t work that way for many of the elite path athletes. Things that many learn in L3/4… the elite path may learn and tweak in L7/8 as they are just that naturally talented.

Stalling out until the lower levels are perfect is not the way to the top that I would choose.

One thing to remember that will never change… you get better at upper level gymnastics by doing upper level gymnastics.

The true rock stars of gymnastics do drills in a very different way than the average. The average learn things with drills… one step at a time. The rock stars may do a couple drills… but go time is go time… they many times chuck junk… then the drills are implemented as “medicine” to cure or fix the issues.

 

[TheXcelMom]

The rock stars may do a couple drills… but go time is go time… they many times chuck junk… then the drills are implemented as “medicine” to cure or fix the issues.

That's great information I didn't know. Thank you.

 

[JBS]

That's great information I didn't know. Thank you.

I should add… this is not the way for most. For most… this method creates fear and bad technique. For the best… go time is go time… these gymnasts must be held back many times or they will hurt themselves.

 

[TheXcelMom]

I know this isn't exactly what you're talking about, as my daughter isn't even close to elite, but this might have happened with her last coach.
Coach said, "do this," and my daughter did that. It was amazing.
I could be wrong but I think because she didn't have the drills and buildup, when the coach left and we changed gyms, the mental blocks were extreme. Kid could barely do a cartwheel all summer.

Anyway, I think I'm understanding you. I just went on a bit of a tangent.

 

[Anonymous Post]

OP here again. Just saying thanks to everyone for all of your input. Especially helpful to hear the first hand experience and opinions from @JBS @FlippinLilysMom and a point of view that is quite different from what I have been thinking from @TheXcelMom - great to hear the counterpoints!

We have one regular season meet left, followed by states. We agreed to meet with both of the elite coaches, me, my husband, and our kiddo after that, to talk it through more and hopefully come to some decisions. I am grateful to have some additional time to think about it.

We were at a really big meet this past weekend and the coach invited my kiddo to “practice” at a gym near the meet with the training HOPES/elite group who were competing in a qualifier. My kid loved every second of it and I loved the coaches and the focus of the girls…. But it felt really overwhelming to me at least.

 

[Anonymous Post]

Met this morning to discuss what the coach's thoughts are and to better understand "why my kid?"

She acknowledged that my kid was technically "behind" to even try and qualify for 13/14 HOPES in 2 years but she seemed to feel very confident that she'd likely be good by 3 years from now, which would be the last year she could try for HOPES. I brought up my concern that I didn't want her being pushed to a point of injury or unhappiness and she agreed. She said that her plan was to keep the same hours for the rest of this year (23 hrs), go to 25 hrs as of June for the following year and then re-evaluate.

She said that her plan *is* to try for an elite trajectory, which really surprised me. But again, said that we would re-evaluate frequently. She also said that she never really tells the kids that the goal is international competition etc...simply that the goal is to try and be the best you can be and to have fun doing it. I have watched her coach and I actually believe this. She is lovely and positive and encouraging without being pushy.

As for "why my kid", her reply was pretty cool. She started by saying that she watches all the girls and that she knew from the day she arrived that she really wanted the chance to coach my kid. She said that there is just "something about her" that makes her feel like they's be a good team. She actually said that many of the coaches at the gym have made similar comments about the kid, which was just about the best thing I've ever heard (suckered much??!! Ha! I know, I know, but she really is the best kid! Even my older two and all the cousins say that they like her best! Ha!) She also felt that my kid is not being challenged enough right now and that her current coaches are limiting her progress by pushing for "perfection". She said that anytime she asks my kid to try a progression or upgraded skill, she gets it nearly instantly, even if it looks sloppy, and that her current coaches (really one of the two) is so preoccupied with getting her kids to make state teams and hit 38 that she needlessly holds them back. I totally agree with this about this one coach in particular but not for the other coaches at the gym.

I wouldn't sign on for this because at her age, you are more likely to burn her out by going down this path ...you say she's already training 23-25 hours a week as a level 6 so I can't imagine the hours wouldn't go up...and for the coach's claim to "why your kid", it seems like if she made the progression this coach talks about , she'd be levels higher at age 11. It just seems like a recipe for frustration and like one poster said, puberty wreaks havoc with skills , and if she doesn't already have them before and coaches are pushing for HOPES and elite skills, I just see misery in her future. If my kid wasn't a level 9 or 10, I wouldn't even consider this. HOPES and Elite are a whole different bird from the rest of gymnastics ...like my daughter said when she was doing it "it's never good enough, never" ...and that's tough to hear as an 11 yo.

 

[FlippinLilysMom]

I wouldn't sign on for this because at her age, you are more likely to burn her out by going down this path ...you say she's already training 23-25 hours a week as a level 6 so I can't imagine the hours wouldn't go up...and for the coach's claim to "why your kid", it seems like if she made the progression this coach talks about , she'd be levels higher at age 11. It just seems like a recipe for frustration and like one poster said, puberty wreaks havoc with skills , and if she doesn't already have them before and coaches are pushing for HOPES and elite skills, I just see misery in her future. If my kid wasn't a level 9 or 10, I wouldn't even consider this. HOPES and Elite are a whole different bird from the rest of gymnastics ...like my daughter said when she was doing it "it's never good enough, never" ...and that's tough to hear as an 11 yo.

And enough is never enough. My daughter would get one crazy hard skill and her coaches (or especially the national team staff) would immediately want it upgraded. That was one of her biggest complaints.

 

[B&M's mom]

Your daughter really really needs to want to do this. My DD was fast tracked and really wanted to go Elite. We ended up at a gym that was interested in training her. It was tough. She eventually left because of injuries but it was driven by her. I made sure she understood what she was getting into and that she could always walk away before she started the training but she made the ultimate decision. The training was intense, nothing was ever good enough and she was always working on perfecting and upgrading. A great meet result meant that there were things that could be upgraded rather than celebrated. There weren't just the normal training hours but she was going to camps and seminars which was a huge time (and money) commitment. She did more away meets because the HOPES/Elite competitions were only at certain meets. Schoolwork was often done late at night after practice because that was her only free time. Her friends were her teammates as she didn't have time for anything outside of the gym and her schoolwork. She flourished, for the most part.

There were several other girls who joined the group because their parents wanted them to. All of them left within a few months because they didn't have the desire. It's hard to give up a social life and normal schooling to be in the gym especially as a preteen.

She's now graduated from college where she dove but she looks back at that time fondly. She's still amazed at what she was able to do but she'll be the first to tell you that it took a lot to do it. In retrospect, the training was great but she'll never use the gymnastics skills again. She did however, pick up the ability to use her time very efficiently. She has no regrets about choosing to do it but she'll admit that if she hadn't been committed 110% it would have been a failure.

 

[GymAir]

Honestly I would go for it if the meeting goes well. You only live once! And I think you said the hours would not go up or be similar (sorry can’t remember). If there’s no clear reason not to do it, and you set some ground rules for communication with your daughter about letting you know if it becomes too much, I would do it. Sometimes you just have to try to find out.

 

[Anonymous (8979)]

Go in with the mindset that IF she does her absolute very best, every single day, she MIGHT make it to L10 in time to be recruited. Puberty SUUUUUCKS for gymnastics and then there’s growth spurts, too. Nothing is impossible, but the truth of the matter is that it is highly unlikely that this path would be the most enjoyable for her, but I love to be proven wrong!!

I feel it's not accurate to peg an 11-year old level 7 as behind as far as "getting to level 10 in time to be recruited". I've never understood the mindset of having an 10/11-year old competing level 9 or 10 unless they are on their way to elite. 5, 6, 7, 8 years of level 10 is not necessary to be recruited. Many great gymnasts who would have otherwise been in the D1 recruiting conversation would fall apart training at that level for that long. Does it happen? Sure. Should it? I'm not sure why one would risk it or intentionally choose that path for a gymnast other than it looking good to have gymnasts in Junior A and it reflecting well on the gym/coach.

 

[Anonymous Post]

I feel it's not accurate to peg an 11-year old level 7 as behind as far as "getting to level 10 in time to be recruited". I've never understood the mindset of having an 10/11-year old competing level 9 or 10 unless they are on their way to elite. 5, 6, 7, 8 years of level 10 is not necessary to be recruited. Many great gymnasts who would have otherwise been in the D1 recruiting conversation would fall apart training at that level for that long. Does it happen? Sure. Should it? I'm not sure why one would risk it or intentionally choose that path for a gymnast other than it looking good to have gymnasts in Junior A and it reflecting well on the gym/coach.

I think this is the difference between an elite minded gym and a college minded gym. If you're in a gym that focuses only on college goals, they seem to have a better track record of pacing the gymnasts so they reach level 10 at 8th/9th grade. This makes sense because the elite focused gyms want their gymnasts to gain those highest skills at a much younger age because you don't know that early on who will make elite. You're playing the number game at that point.

 

[Anonymous (8979)]

I think this is the difference between an elite minded gym and a college minded gym. If you're in a gym that focuses only on college goals, they seem to have a better track record of pacing the gymnasts so they reach level 10 at 8th/9th grade. This makes sense because the elite focused gyms want their gymnasts to gain those highest skills at a much younger age because you don't know that early on who will make elite. You're playing the number game at that point.

I'd argue any elite gym is also a "college goals" gym, though, especially considering the actual number of gymnasts in any given DP program at an elite gym who end of qualifying elite - and - the number within those elite gymnasts who plan to go from competing elite to college at 18 (which isn't uncommon at all).

 

[rlm's mom]

You have nothing to lose with going for it imo. Just keep tabs on your DD, make sure she's happy and get body is healthy. Don't be afraid to cut back at soon as your gut feelings tell you to.
Also, I recommend a regular sports therapist. Hard believer that it got my kids to where they are today.

 

[Anonymous Post]

Thanks everyone! We decided that she’ll move to that group come summer and see how it goes from there. My kid just broke her elbow and is unable to do much for 8 weeks, so not sure how it will impact their decision to proceed. Oh well!

 

[Anonymous (e01f)]

The true rock stars of gymnastics do drills in a very different way than the average. The average learn things with drills… one step at a time. The rock stars may do a couple drills… but go time is go time… they many times chuck junk… then the drills are implemented as “medicine” to cure or fix the issues.

I don't actually believe that is mostly true. Chuckers always look like chuckers to me.
Correcting basic shapes is harder than learning it right in the first place. Good basics shine out of what I would call rock stars. Same with good technique. JMHO.

 

[Anonymous (a1d4)]

Thanks everyone! We decided that she’ll move to that group come summer and see how it goes from there. My kid just broke her elbow and is unable to do much for 8 weeks, so not sure how it will impact their decision to proceed. Oh well!

Sorry to hear about the elbow. I hope she has a smooth recovery!

 

[JBS]

I don't actually believe that is mostly true. Chuckers always look like chuckers to me.
Correcting basic shapes is harder than learning it right in the first place. Good basics shine out of what I would call rock stars. Same with good technique. JMHO.

You must not understand the logic… I never said it wasn’t taught correctly with perfect technique. I simply said the ordering of things is different.

Just because a gymnast can do something right away without much work doesn’t mean it’s not brought forward into as close to perfection as possible.

 

[Anonymous Post]

I'd argue any elite gym is also a "college goals" gym, though, especially considering the actual number of gymnasts in any given DP program at an elite gym who end of qualifying elite - and - the number within those elite gymnasts who plan to go from competing elite to college at 18 (which isn't uncommon at all).

I was referring to the coaches mindset. Generally, an elite gym's goal is to have the gymnasts attain skills early and move up the levels quickly. Yes, they may split the group into potentials (elite, college, high school, etc) and train accordingly but they will have many in that elite potential category initially and often these gymnasts are not moved over to college path until they are already high optionals at young ages. Contrast this to a gym that doesn't train elites at all - their path is slower, with the goal to get to Level 10 by 8th/9th grade, and focus is on college skills/routines. No need to heavily work skills/routines that they won't use in college. This significantly reduces the stress on the body.

 

[Anonymous (8b88)]

Thanks everyone! We decided that she’ll move to that group come summer and see how it goes from there. My kid just broke her elbow and is unable to do much for 8 weeks, so not sure how it will impact their decision to proceed. Oh well!

I'm so sorry that your daughter broke her elbow! I hope that you will keep us updated. I am in a kind of similar situation. I have a 9yr old level 5 that is being offered a place in our gym's elite training group. I have learned a lot from this thread and all of this discussion.

 

[Anonymous (e01f)]

You must not understand the logic… I never said it wasn’t taught correctly with perfect technique. I simply said the ordering of things is different.

Just because a gymnast can do something right away without much work doesn’t mean it’s not brought forward into as close to perfection as possible.

you said they chuck junk! In my experience Rock Stars don't chuck junk. Their steps forwards and amount of drills will be less but it all still happens in the right order for it to be good quality. Chuckers are chuckers end of. They are not rock stars, they are chuckers!