WAG Looking for advice (parents and coaches)

[momof2gymmies]

This may be all jumbled and long b/c I am still upset, but hopefully it will make sense, b/c I am really not sure what to do.

I have two girls who are on team. ODD (10) is xcel silver, and YDD (7 - 8 in two weeks, so tech 8)) is xcel bronze. ODD LOVES, LOVES, LOVES our gym, and the coaches love her. YDD is as different as ODD as two sisters could possibly be. She is strong, both physically and strong willed. She is stubborn, feisty, sassy, a perfectionist, and a very anxious kid. She would much rather get in trouble than let people know that she can not do something.

So bronze/silver practice together at our gym. There are maybe 15 kids in their practice group. YDD is the youngest by at least 2 years.

So, the coaches say YDD has been struggling with following directions the first time she has been asked. DD and I have talked about it. Its over things like not jumping around while waiting her turn. She got kicked out of practice one night b/c she sat down while she was waiting her turn. ODD told me that they are not allowed to sit while they wait. YDD said she was tired. Practice ends an hour after her usual bedtime. Its not an excuse - if the coach told her not to sit she needs to listen - just trying to give examples of what she is getting in trouble for. It has been set up with DD's coach that if she does ANYTHING her coach will text me and I will come and get her, if only to make the point that she needs to listen while she is in the gym if she wants to be there. She was working to get a private from her coach, and the deal was that she needed to listen and try her hardest this week at practice. She did great on the two days her coaches were there, and was on track to have it next week.

Yesterday their coach was out, so they had one of the rec teachers for practice. She is a very nice teacher, but the whole team took advantage of her not knowing what they could/couldn't do. YDD was suppose to be practicing her ROBHS, and she instead decided to do back tucks. I was actually sitting at practice, and the teacher was watching her, giving her corrections on robts. After doing about 10 the head coach (of xcel, who has had issues with YDD when she was in class) came over and yelled at her that she knew better, and she knew she was not suppose to be doing bts. From what I could see (behind glass) and what ODD told me, YDD stopped and went back to working bhs. As we were leaving the head coach asked me to stop and talk. She is furious at YDD. Says she knows what is allowed. Says she had a hard time listening at the start of practice, and at one point it took her 2 minutes to get in line. She said she texted YDDs coach and told her to cancel the private, since DD was not doing what she should have been doing. It was a 25 minute conversation about how bad YDD was.

I asked ODD about it in the car when we left, and she said YDD was fine, and she is the first one to rat out her sister.

Obviously I am going along with what the coach said, b/c YDD can not split adults. She knew that she should not be doing back tucks, but at the same time she is only 7, and sometimes I think that she acts like the baby on the team b/c it is the only way the other girls pay any attention to her. She was not the only one who was trying new skills - every single one of the girls in the practice group were having difficulty following directions. Even ODD, who is an angel at gym, came home and told me she got her round off back handspring back layout with a twist. And while I have no clue what that is, when I asked her if she did it with her regular coaches she kind of mumbled no and tried to get out of the conversation. But she did not get in trouble at gym. So I feel like in a way YDD is being punished b/c the head coach does not like her.

So, after all that, do I just suck it up and tell DD too bad so sad, knowing she will quit in May? YDD asked about other gyms, and actually has been for awhile, but there is only one other gym close by - within 45 minutes of our house, and ODD does not want to switch gyms. Do I try and talk to her coach, knowing that whatever plan we come up with will not be followed by other coaches? Any other ideas?

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

A few questions/comments...
1) your YDD is quitting gym in May (after season, I presume)? If I read that correctly, then I would likely not make a stink about things.

2) all the things you mention her normally getting in trouble for would get a kid in trouble in my training group too. Without a doubt.

3) working on skills they aren't supposed to, especially taking advantage of a sub coach, would NOT sit well at our gym and both girls would have gotten in trouble. I would be VERY upset with my child if she did this and would make her apologize both to the regular coach and the sub. As a coach, this would show me that this kid cannot be trusted and would need more monitoring (in a negative way)

4) if your YDD has a history of behaving "poorly" in class as you are suggesting, then as a coach it would be very difficult to start seeing each instance as a separate incident (even though you should). If I have little Suzie cheating on her rope climb every week and one week she doesn't complete it because she has something else going on (rips, sore arms or whatever) it would be very hard to not assume that she is just cheating as usual rather than having a somewhat legit excuse. Is it right..? No, but that is kind of how it works. So if the HC has a history of seeing poor behaviour from your YDD then yes, I can see why he cracked down harder on her than someone who normally behaves well in class. Not entirely fair, but given the facts just as laid out here by you, I can see his point.

Yes, she is 7. Is it possible she is not emotionally ready for team training? The things you mention her doing would red flag her in our program and likely prevent her from being accepted to pre-team/team. If she were accepted, there would be several stern talks about behaviour and probably at this point she would have been made to work out with lower training groups until she could prove (by behaviour) that she was ready and wanted to be in her regular group....

I mean this in a caring way, just tryin to offer a viewpoint from a coach who works with a lot of kids this age group and share what the expectations for someone of this age/ level would be.

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

I also wanted to mention that it sounds as if YOU are handling it all very well as far as not letting YDD pull the wool over your eyes. As a coach I would absolutely appreciate that you are "taking their side" and proactive in letting them know you will do whatever you can on your end to improve her behaviour. So many parents go completely the other way and assume the coaches are just out to get their kid.... The fact that you are realizing there is an issue and are working to be part of the solution is huge!!

 

[momof2gymmies]

Thank you. I want all view points b/c I am frustrated and know that I am probably not thinking clearly. She ahs not said that she is quitting in May, I just believe that that is the way things are headed. I know she needs to behave and listen the first time around. That is why her coach and I came up with the plan of kicking her out of she doesn't. She needs to learn to follow rules. I think I am just frustrated b/c it seems like yesterday she was held to a different standard than the rest of the girls. And I know that it is because of her history with the gym. Its just hard to get her to see that. And given her personality she just digs in deeper and deeper, and gets herself liked by the coaches even less than she is right now.

And she is apologizing to all involved about the back tucks, as is ODD about her flippy thingy. They both knew it was wrong.

 

[gracyomalley]

working skills they have not been approved to work because a new coach who doesn't know is there (esp. a rec coach who may not know how to tell if a kid is safe) it a red flag - and esp. for your older DD at 10 - its a serious safety issue and if kids are not aware of that at age 10 then I would be very concerned. I do think its hard for a younger kid to always fit in with the olders, and even if many almost 8 year olds are ready to attend and follow rules, train with older kids, very coachable, etc., some are not. If your younger child is thinking of quitting and getting in trouble all the time, etc. I would be very clear with the coaches of how you would like to make the rest of the season a positive learning experience for her. Certainly out of practice when misbehaves in ways she KNOWS are a problem is standard here, but I don't understand the withholding the private thing - it may be that she will do much better after seeing that the coach cares about her progress by working with her one on one some (my kids gym allows privates for lots of reasons, although aims to "not need them", I know in some places they are much more rare). Sounds like she doesn't really buy into gym as a whole - whether that be because of immaturity, frustration, etc.

I agree, if safety is an issue (and throwing back tucks and fulls just because your regular coach is gone is a safety issue) than the child simply may not be ready for the team environment, or at least need a different work out group. In the past I have seen coaches deal with this creatively - having kids do pre-team and a couple hours of team a week until they are more mature, half practices, etc...

 

[coachmolly]

It's hard to tell without seeing the behavior first hand, but it can be exhausting as a coach to have a kid, especially one with a lot of potential, who just cannot seem to "get it together"- giving the same corrections all the time, seeing them cheat or weasel their way out of an assignment, not following directions. And sometimes you just have enough. It sounds like maybe YDD tricking that substitute coach was just that one little thing that pushed HC over the edge. I know there have been times I have been harder on girls who regularly cause problems than I would have been on another kid who had done the same thing. I try to avoid that, as I know it's not fair, but some kids just like to see how far they can push. I'm thinking that maybe this is what happened with the HC.
It sounds like you have a great plan in place, and I think that should be communicated with all coaches working with your DD. The substitute coach, unless she was a last minute sub, should have been let in on what was happening.
My girls (7-10 yo) had a sub a few months ago who let them get away with doing things they should not have done, and I was more mad at her and the HC who let it happen than my girls, though I hope they know now that is not acceptable. It sounds like your girls and their group knew they were in the wrong, so that would have prompted a "talking to" to all of them. But I'm also concerned about the sub coach who let it happen.
I would suggest making a concrete plan- similar to what you do- but maybe even having it in writing? Keep it short and sweet, work with her coaches to come up with it, and have all of you sign off on it so you know what you are expected to do, DD knows her expectations, and she also knows what the consequences are if she slips up. It can be written in that she's working towards the reward of the private if she maintains good before for X number of days straight with the punishment of misbehaving (and clarifying what "misbehaving" means) being something that is equally clear (sitting out of practice). Make sure to praise her along the way, highlighting every bit of good behavior so she doesn't feel like she's a lost cause and always in trouble, and try to get her coach to do the same.

 

[momof2gymmies]

And that I think is what is bothering me the most. She feels that the coaches don't like her. She has been compared to her sister who is a beautiful gymnast since day one. And they are very different kids with very different strengths and weaknesses. ODD listens and does what she is told 99% of the time. YDD sees that ODD did the same things she did, yet her private was not cancelled. Just YDDs. And she "claims" that that does not make any sense. She is smart enough to know what she did is wrong. Maybe I am more upset about the different ways each of them are treated. YDD has always had acceptance and belonging issues, so this is hitting her very hard.

 

[coachmolly]

I'm so sorry for your YDD. It's hard having an older sibling you are compared to, I have a brother who is 1 year older and very different. In school teachers would get me the following year and expect me to be exactly like him and were often left sorely disappointed. All kids are different.
I have a few girls who are really giving me problems right now, so this thread is making me think about how I work with them, though their problems are more manipulation, lack of effort, and cheating on assignments. Though I do try to be very careful to offer them praise when the opportunity arises and hide my feelings when they are frustrating me so they don't feel as though I dislike them. But coaches are human and we make mistakes from time to time.
Is your DD enjoying gymnastics? Does she want to be there and progress? Does she have goals for herself in the gym? Those are all things to think about as you work through this, and work to help your daughter be the best gymnast she can be.

 

[momof2gymmies]

Honestly, at times I don't know what she wants. Last year she was very motivated to make team, and skipped pre-team, which looking back might have been a huge mistake. She says she wants to be there, although I know it is not on the same way ODD wants to be there. I have actively tried to steer her away from gym, b/c I didn't want the two girls compared. Its funny. She is actually a better gymnast than ODD. She is strong and fearless, while ODD has to work for it. YDD was asked to join JO. ODD was told she was too old for JO at 9. She tried JO over the summer, but hated all the hours. L4 was going 16 hours a week over the summer, and it was just too much for her. Her behavior was crazy. If the two girls had to go against each other at a meet I have no doubt which one would place higher. Yet ODD is a favorite of everyone, and YDD is most likely driving the entire gym to drink. She deals with it at school as well. Teachers love ODD. YDD needs to grow on most people. She does have a lack of effort at times, but I believe it is because she would rather not try than try and fail, although I may be off on that. There is not a whole lot of sneakiness or manipulation though. She is a pretty what you see is what you get type of kid.

I think I am going to jus stay quiet and see what happens for the next month. Tell DD to get her act together and then people will be more receptive to giving her what she wants/helping her with what she needs. I would hate to see her quit, b/c out of all my kids she needs to structure and self confidence that gymnastics can give her, but if it is knocking her down day after day then that's not what I want.

 

[DefiniteMaybe]

I get it. I've had multiple girls in the sport, and it's very difficult as a mom to have one of your children favored over another. Also, what's best for one is not always what is best for the other. Tricky, indeed.

If having your girls at separate gyms isn't an option, I would give your YDD a pep talk everyday. I would tell her that each gymnast gets a certain amount of "grace" from the coaches. When it runs out, it runs out. As of right now, it sounds like she's used all of hers up, so she will probably get into more trouble more easily than another gymnast who hasn't used up all of her "grace." Make sense? Maybe tell her she has to work twice as hard to earn back the favor and grace of the coaches. It sounds like it's a consequence of her previous choices, unfortunately.

A lot is expected of very young athletes in gymnastics, but I don't think that's all bad. And I believe the earlier we understand that there are consequences to our poor choices, the better.

 

[gymdog]

I don't really understand the sub issue. First of all, the absent coach should communicate to the sub what is allowed. Perhaps the coach left a plan that is more general, such as "practice the tumbling of your routines." So the sub told the kids that, and your daughter did back tucks. Any group I've coached, the kids would immediately yell "we practice RO BHS ms/mr so and so!" Maybe the kids I coach are just rats, but that would never happen...like there are so many reasons it would never happen, the other reason being anyone who would sub for team would know that RO BT is not a pass that is allowed in bronze so even the most vague lesson plan would exclude it.

All I can conclude is the culture in your gym must be very different. I'm sure her behavior is frustrating but something also seems a bit odd about the way things are handled there. Not really sure what you can do knowing this. What did the JO level 4 coaches say about her?

 

[suebee]

Just wanted to give a little sympathy. Your YDD sounds a lot like my DS and your ODD like my DD. My DS is older, though, and my dd is the gymnast.

Most adults in ds's life do not like him, which is kind of understandable given that he is a challenging kid and frustrates most adults. But he does have some incredible strengths in addition to his challenges. He had his best year at school last year when he finally had a teacher who actually liked him and appreciated his strengths, despite his challenges. It is amazing how much of a difference that makes. We all have a lot less patience and tolerance for people we don't like.

I don't know what to tell you about gym. I can tell you that my ds would never have been asked to do team if he had even been remotely interested in gymnastics because of his challenges. And I am almost certain dd was invited to team largely because she is extremely coachable.

 

[COz]

My 2 cents for what it's worth...
I agree with virtually everything that has been said above so rather than saying how I agree with the stuff already said, a couple of additions.

Our set up seems very different to a lot of things I read here, some of which I'm grateful, but I'm in Australia and only have a pre-team kid so take what I say with a grain of salt or two. So I may not know what I'm talking about, because we're still relatively new to all of this, haven't competed, have a different set up with regard to teams, but I do have a teaching background, a kid doing 12 hours of gymnastics a week plus more of ballet, all of which I watch, because I'm allowed to, whilst doing other work or chatting and because it's time I get with others adults whilst I have someone else look after my other child too. I also have a good relationship with our coaches.

My child's training group is 3 mixed levels of 5-8 year olds. If our coaches tried to stop them from doing the 'gymnast bounce' whilst waiting in line or walking, they'd have a hard time. Sure, they could do it, but I think there are bigger things to worry about. Our kids don't do this in competition, because they understand the difference between training and competition. They are not badly behaved (generally, although they do try to take advantage of the less strict coaches), but the certainly do bounce. Our parents sometimes use this as a measure of how tired or happy our child is - "Look at Suzie, she's perked up, she's bouncing again". Our girls will sit down, not all the time, but they do. You can tell when they're tired. Occasionally one will even lie on the floor. They are told to get up, but the coaches don't make a huge deal out of it. They are parents too.
I completely understand that other gyms would not allow this, but I'm glad that ours don't mind.

I would absolutely not move ODD from this gym.

The gym clearly sees a lot of potential in your YDD, letting her skip pre-team, offering her JO etc. Whilst some kids can handle it, 16 hours is a lot for a young child. It sounds like they saw so much potential and may have made assumptions about maturity and coachability based on your ODD rather than paying more attention to her own strengths and weaknesses.
It does sound like pre-team might have been a good idea in hindsight.
It sounds to me like it's perhaps been a bit too much too soon. She's tired, hungry, desperately trying to fit in with the older group and keep up with big sis.

Ideally, it sounds like having her have slightly less hours and being in a different training group would help. Currently everyone is frustrated. A break would probably help. Does the gym have any suggestions, beyond 'punishment' which doesn't appear to be working? Would they allow her to drop to pre-team with the understanding that she could move to JO afterwards which would separate the girls? Is two gyms a possibility? It would be a shame for her to drop out.

 

[Sasha]

Lots of great perspectives so far.

Note - I have one child who must go through a special daily behavioral checklist (for simple rule following like raising one's hand) at school with points goals to earn rewards. So I "get" having a child with behavioral challenges that gets on the nerves of teachers, and tbh, not everyone likes. I have other children who are much loved angels by all. So I'm right in there with you and feel your pain here!

I'll add/support some points...

- It's wonderful you have looked objectively and acknowledged your YDD's more challenging traits, and recognize why she might be struggling to earn coaches' favor and respect. And it's wonderful you are working with the coaches to help her.
- Yes, those kinds of behavior (not including the sub day) would be absolutely unacceptable in our gym for any team, even pre-team. A child who routinely could not obey rules would lose their privilege to be on team. Coachability is a must.
- There are many 7 year olds who are not mature enough, yet, to follow the rules of team. I have seen numerous kids not invited due to behavior/attention, and some have "left" after clearly having problems for a while and not improving enough. It happens frequently.
- Being the youngest on the team is probably adding fuel to the behavioral fire, as it probably feels like a license to "act younger" (since she is noticeably younger).
- You're doing exactly the right thing in being in close communication with coach about her behavior expectations, and creating a reward/consequence system that is transparent to her. Working toward privates for good daily behavior is a valid idea imo.
- Having this plan written down, as someone suggested, might be even better, just to make sure communication is an clear as possible (between you, your DD and coaches).
- The sub day: it's odd to me that the sub wasn't given more specific goals, but at any rate, the whole group should receive a "talk" about the skills practice issue.
- For the sub day, I'm not surprised your YDD received more backlash than other children. For your YDD, it was "one more thing" on top of, apparently, a series of mistakes/behaviors that frustrate the coaches. For your ODD and others, it was a "one off" that could more easily be easily forgiven.
-We more easily forgive people when an unwanted behavior is new and not "in character." So when a well-behaved child messes up, we are more likely to attribute it to the circumstance, or lapse in judgment, rather than her "character". When a frequent offender, however, makes the same mistake as the well-behaved child, we more likely attribute it to her "character" and it even reinforces this character attribute even stronger. Repetition ("habit") is the reinforcer here. Fair or not, it's how we create and maintain perceptions of people, and even how we motivate ourselves to build our own character and create our own destinies. Actions > Habits > Character > .... I'm sure you've heard the quote...

Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

So I would not unfairly chastise the coaches for judging your YDD more harshly. This is in line with how most people might react. I even explain to my 'problem' child about how he will also be judged more harshly since some of his behaviors are patterns. He is a couple years older than your daughter, though.

In sum: It sounds like you are at a gym who has 1) given your YDD multiple team opportunities despite some behavioral/attitude/personality challenges and 2) have been willing to put in extra effort to work with you on a behavior rewards system. Not all gyms would be this gracious and adaptive!! I'd be cautious about jumping ship, as it seems they are trying very hard to make it work for her, and giving her both time to mature, and a system for making the needed improvements to continue on team. It is very possibly that in time, with the right support, that her gymnastics will flourish, and she will overcome some early stigma that she is experiencing now. Optimism!

 

[gymgal]

We were in this position several weeks ago with my (non-gymnast) son. He has a history of getting in trouble, not listening, just general immaturity, suspected adhd. The coaches keep a closer eye on him so they can correct behavior immediately. Recently, he has been better with in general but one night, he did something he should have known was a safety issue and his coach really yelled at him. After practice, ds was crying because he just couldn't understand why the coach was so angry at him when others had done the same thing in practice and they didn't get yelled at. It was also obvious that ds didn't really understand what he did wrong, even though it was clear that the coach felt he should have known better. The fact that he didn't understand clearly shows that he wasn't attending well. DS and I had a long discussion regarding how his past behaviors affect how his coaches will react to future behaviors and that while he has worked really hard to improve recently, the history doesn't just disappear overnight. He has to work harder than the others to prove he wants to be there and be a better athlete. I admitted that this isn't fair (ds is still in the developmental stage where it is all about fairness), but it is the way it is and that he has to just accept the fact and move one, continuing to work on improving the coach's impression of him. I did not force him to apologize to his coach but I did highly recommend that he do it on his own as it would go a long way toward the coach seeing that ds is thinking about it and was bothered by being yelled at (which in the past did not phase him). Ds did apologize and asked for clarification on what he should have done instead.

I think it is important that your dd understand that she is being treated differently due to her past and while it may not be fair, it is reality - and the only one who can change it is herself through improved behaviors. Also assure her that the coach doesn't hate her. It is more likely that the coach just finds it very frustrating working with her because of the added difficulties. Try to find an example that she can relate to - younger sibling/cousin, baby dog/cat, a peer who displays similar trying behaviors. If she relate her own feelings of frustration to their behaviors, she can have a better understanding of how her behaviors cause frustration in others.

As for the privates. I can certainly understand the coach POV. If the gymnast is not going to attend and behave in class, she should not be rewarded with one-on-one time in privates. Now, if the child has a clear learning issue that affects her attention and/or her ability to learn well in groups and she needs more one-on-one time, that's different. But that is something that presumably would have been discussed before placement on team.