MAG Men's programs

[Outlast]

In reading few of the women's threads this week, I started wondering about the differences in men's programs. Starting from preschool classes through preteam and then team, what are the key features that your gym practices? Do the boys have separate classes at 5, 6, or maybe later? Do they wait to take boys to preteam or team until a certain age? Do they repeat levels? Are the boys hours shorter at each level than the girls?

I'm just wondering how the men's programs work. Do they progress more slowly? Do the gyms that have national or international competitors have programs to fast track boys (even homeschooling)? Or do they assume if capable they will get there in college? What role does future stars play? Etc...

 

[skschlag]

I can only speak for our gym. Boys come into the beginner class at many ages. It is generally 1 hour long. The key feature that is looked for to advance out of the beginner class is an ability to listen and follow directions to stay safe. (strength is good too, but I know that listening is key!)

they then move to our intermediate class. This class is 1 1/2 or 2 hours (I can't remember) and starts to focus more on the equipment and skills. They start to learn the basics on each apparatus. Once they have some of the basics, and the coaches feel they are strong enough, they move to pre-team (level 3-4). Some kids do move straight from beginner to pre-team if they are ready.

Pre-team works the level 4 routines and skills. They do not compete except in-house. It is developmental and prepares them for level 5. (2 hour class)

After that they move to the team. LEvels 5-7 practice together so they go straight there. (2 1/2 hours)

After that it is optionals (level 8-10). That is 3 hours.

There is also a trampoline class for older kids that are just looking to get "tricks" for skateboarding or snowboarding.

Future stars is used on each apparatus as warm-up or conditioning. We used to compete it, but now are working towards the JE track. I think we might pick it up again next year.

I believe that our coach likes to take it slow with the boys. They are in no rush. Their biggest enemy is injury and that can come from overuse or pushing. So he prefers to take it slow. He has a great track record of gymnasts competing in college, but no elites, yet.

 

[Outlast]

So what is the age range for children to go to team? Is there a cutoff either way, too young or too old? What age do they take boys into the beginning class? Ours is 6.
I could imagine that having optional routines, plus future stars routines, and then Junior Elite would be quite confusing. That's a ton to remember!

Thanks for shedding some light!

 

[skschlag]

Kids start at 5.before that they are in preschool. no limit on How old they can be. he does try to move the older ones faster, when they are ready

 

[acm1289]

I'm interested to see more responses about the difference in skills. I read on a thread here that it's option for boys to compete a kip on high bar in level 5. That's amazing to me seeing as its required at girls level 4 on UB and I competed it at old L4 (new L3) when I was competing.

 

[2G1B]

My son has been through four gyms for various reasons. Here is his path.

Gym 1 - He started when he was 4. We went most of that year; but took the summer off. It was a pre-school rec class, co-ed and he was in it with his twin sister. They told me that when the kids turned 5 that they would need to split up and go into girl only and boy only classes. I had to really talk this up to the kids, as they weren't crazy about being split up. But I finally convinced them that it would be soooo much better. Then I went to sign them up and the gym had swapped to 5 year olds still being co-ed. They both said, "No WAY!!! You told us it would be so much better to be split up." So, we took about 7 months off. They regularly asked to go back to gymnastics. So I found a different gym that would have them split up.

Gym 2 - he was 5.5 (actually, closer to 6) when he started there. He did once per week, 1 hour. It was just a "boys class". We took most of the summer off, came off and on (the gym let you do makeups, so I paid for the first month and through the summer we made it to the 4 classes). He started back when the school year started. Went a few more months and them was moved to pre team, I think that he was a few months from turning 7. Pre team was I think 1.5 hours, twice per week. I thin that he had an OK round off and cartwheel at that time. He did that for maybe 8 or 9 months, again, taking part of the summer off. Then in November they decided to move him up to team at level 4. He practiced 3 days per week, 3 hours per practice. His team all practiced together - levels 4 -8, with the level 8 kid coming in for one extra hour. He started competing in January (most of the kids had been moved to team at the start of the summer, I'm not sure why he wasn't). He competed his first year as level 4 (before the routine change). Before being moved to team he had never worked on the mushroom; but had done some stuff on rings, high bar, p-bars and vault. Back then the level 4 vault was just a straight jump. On rings I remember he did 4 chin up things, that was a bonus. And then I think it is a back lever, that was another bonus. Floor he didn't do any of the bonuses (they were a back handspring and a press (from standing, not sitting) handstand). Instead he did a headstand and just a roundoff with rebound. There was also a cartwheel step in and a pancake in there. Pommel was just I think 1.5 circles on mushroom and I think some swings and then a leg cut on pommel. P-bars seems like it was some swings, then the bonus was going to a handstand before dismount. High bar, seems like there was a chin up, pull over, some swings, a half turn. For him, he had a decent year, mostly middle of the pack, some top 5. I figured that considering how late he moved to team, it was a pretty good year. 1.5 weeks before state he slipped off of the mushroom and broke his pinky. He was in a cast for 3 weeks and no tumbling or anything high for 2 more weeks afterwards. At state he was able to do vault since it was just a straight jump. He finished 7th. He didn't compete anything else due to the cast. We had spring break right after state. One of the older boy's moms called me during spring break because she found out that at the end of that month the gym was dropping the boys' team. The gym wasn't telling until the middle of that month; but I decided to go ahead and look for another gym.

Gym 3 - I took him in for an evaluation and he was put on their level 4 team. That year the routines changed. He went down to 5 hours per week - two days, 2.5 hours each. He was then practicing with only level 4 kids. Vault became a handstand flat back. Floor really didn't change that much, just a little. He did the bonuses - ROBHS and handstand press (from standing). Pancake wasn't in anymore (I think). High bar lost the half turn. Still had pull over and tap swings. Bonus was a back hip circle I think. P bars seemed about the same. Rings they took out the pull ups as bonus. Pommel I don't really know what the basic was - actual pommel stayed the same. I know bonus #1 was 3.5 circles on mushroom and bonus #2 was 5.5 circles. By state DS was doing the 5.5. For my DS, he had a great year. By the next to the last meet he was 1st on pommel and AA, 2nd on floor and pbars, 3rd on vault and rings and 4th on high bar. Even at a really large meet in our area that had kids from 4 states competing (and 31 kids in his age group), he got 3rd on pommel. Then 2 days before state he hurt his ankle, I took him the next day to urgent care. They said it might be slightly sprained, didn't even suggest crutches, said that if he thought he was good, that he should be fine to compete. His coach taped his ankle, he competed; but left stuff like his BHS out of his floor. He also couldn't point that toe due to how taped it was; but it wasn't obvious that it was due to an injury on some events due to his socks. Vault was the worst because he just couldn't run. he placed 5th on floor, 6th on pommel and 7th AA (out of 16 kids).

After the end of that season, I wasn't thrilled with some stuff going on with the girls' program (and I have 2 girls who do gymnastics too). So, we changed gyms. again. The coaches at the new gym knew him, he didn't have to do an evaluation, was just put on their level 5 team. He started training with them in June. Here he goes 12 hours per week - 3 days, 4 hours each. He hasn't competed yet, so I only sort of have a feel for the skills he has to have. I think that for pommel he said that it is swings and some leg cuts. He said that for mushroom he is doing 5 circles, then I think he said 2 or 3 spindles and is now working on his flares. He said that the basic is 5 circles and the other stuff is bonus. For high bar he is supposed to have his kip. He doesn't yet. He insists that he is "this close". It isn't a bonus though. I think a bonus is a fly away for dismount. I think that is what he said. Pbars - I have no clue what is involved. He said that he has his handstand dismount and has to hold it; but I think that he said that is a bonus. Rings, I know the muscle up with coach's help is in the routine and a bonus is to do it w/o the coach helping. I don't think that he has any chance of getting that. Floor I know they have a ROBHSBHS for bonus and ROBHS is the basic. Oh, and there is a front handspring. Vault is a handspring onto a stack of matts over a panel mat. My DS is going to be competing as a 9 year old this year. On his team there is one 7 year old, several 10 year olds and several 11 year olds. His BFF is on his team (changed gyms when we did) and this is his second year competing. I know that he had a totally different "journey". He did some rec (no idea of how long) and then walked into the team coach's office one day and asked what he needed to do to try out for team. He was 10 at the time. He tried out and made level 4, had a great first year, and now is doing level 5. He is soooo motivated and really listens. Plus he seems to have no fear.

Comparing it to girls' gymnastics. his twin sister started on team after his first year on team. She started at old level 3. This past year she competed old 3 and he competed 4. I'd say that girls' old 3 was a little behind boys' level 4 skill wise, especially if the boys are doing the bonuses. She just finished up her new level 3 season and I'd say that difficulty wise it was pretty comparable to his level 4. And I'd say that what it sounds like she will be doing in new 4 is comparable to what he will be doing in new 5. Not exact apples for apples; but close.

Sorry for the novel!

 

[MyBoysFlip]

What I like about mens gymnastics is how many different types of kids have the chance to participate. Our young kids (9 & under) usually go from rec to a year of training team and then move on to team but older kids can be placed on team without being on training team. My son was on training team at 5/6, competed L5 at 6/7/8 ad is competing L6 this year. He's had 3 different coaches but I think his current coach is here to stay. He's talked about training future stars with the boys but we'll see what happens. We have L4-7 right now.

 

[sjm2b3]

Yes, boys level 5 is similar to girls new level 4 (I have a kid in each). However, the girls have to vault over the table whereas the boys do a front handspring over mats. The difficulty on floor is somewhat similar. As stated above, if you add the bonuses you can make it more difficult (eg, flyaway).

 

[Azgymmiemom]

Boys are soooo different!! It's all about the strength, strength, strength...and I think that's hard to get at a young age. My ds's coach won't let any boy compete without all the bonuses in their routines. To him, those are the standard routines. It makes sense to me, bc the girls don't have a choice...the routines are what they are. Boys can also skip levels without testing out, which is different from the girls...who must show at least one meet with each levels routines. Either way...none of them can compete senior elite until they are 16...

 

[skschlag]

I can't imagine waiting for all bonuses before competing a level. Especially since boys all have different strengths and weaknesses. I love the fact that boys can move up when coach thinks they are ready. I love the bonus structure because it allows the boys to learn higher skills while competing at the level they are at. My son will probably never have all the bonuses on high bar yet, but can move up without them and will eventually get them when he is ready.

 

[2G1B]

I prefer the actual scoring for the boys. I like how the girls have more than one judge; but the actual scores seem better to me for the boys. With girls, a 10 is PERFECT; but it seems that at the lower levels, anything less than a 9 on an event is not very good. The kids and the coaches aren't too happy with 8s, and certainly not 7s.

For boys, using level 4 as an example. I think that the highest you could score on pommel, with bonuses, was like a 12.3. I NEVER saw a 12 at a meet. And I saw some pretty amazing routines. But I think an 11.4 was the highest I have ever seen with this scoring system (my DS's first year was different scoring - I think it went up to a 15.something or maybe even a 16). With the boys, at least in our area and at level 4, if you saw a 10 on the boards for a kid, you noticed. An 11 and you remembered that kid's name. You just didn't see almost perfect scores. For girls, you notice 9.8s; but they aren't unheard of.

To me, it just seems like an 8 should be a pretty decent score for a girl. It seems like anything in the 9s should "knock your socks off". Because I tell you, I watch the boys who score lots of 11s and those routines are AMAZING. And they are still a point+ away from a perfect score!

Another thing that I'm starting to kind of see with boys vs girls - my son has had 3 injuries since starting competing - the broken pinkie that ended up in a cast and 5 weeks out of normal practice (still doing conditioning), the ankle at state actually ended up being a broken ankle - 3 weeks in a boot and I think 2 or 3 weeks of limited activity, so again 5 - 6 weeks out of normal practice. Again, doing conditioning. And then in the fall he broke his elbow. 3 weeks in a cast and 2 weeks of limited activity, so again, 5 weeks out of normal practice and just doing conditioning. All of this was in a 17 month period. So, out of 17 months, he was out of normal practice for about 15 weeks. And honestly, it might have held him back a little bit; but not very much at all. Maybe all of that conditioning was good for him? But on the flip side, I really do feel like if either of his sisters had missed nearly 4 months of practice over a year and a half, that it would have put them way behind. I don't know WHY there is that difference. And maybe it is just my kids. Or maybe it is that for boys, it is so much a strength activity, so all of that conditioning was a good thing. Where as for the girls, it is a lot of strength; but they also have all of the dance and style stuff to learn? As a non-gymnast I guess I really don't know...

 

[J&A's mom]

I have a level 4 and 6 son this year. My oldest did the old level 4 routines. I hate the new ones, they seem to have taken strength and flexibility out. No pancake on floor and no extra pull up on high bar or rings. As you can see from my avatar, my little man would have the pancake bonus and he would also have the pull ups. So that is a little disconcerting.

Their gym starts competing at level 4. My sons team has mostly first and second graders on it, but there is also a fourth graders. My level6 son's team ranges from third graders to a sixth grader. The older kids seem to be on a fast track.

It was weird when they were in level 4 and the girls in level4 had the bhs, but not all the boys did. But the tracks are different because of what college means to the boys vs the girls.

 

[Mom2twingymnasts]

I have boy and girl twins in this sport. They both started beginning of summer when they were 6 1/2 just taking a rec class based on age. Our gym at that age had separate classes for boys and girls both classes were 1 day per week for an hour.

In September by daughter was invited to pre-team (level 3) and moved to 6 or 9 hours per week. I don't remember the exact number of hours but remember thinking it was way too many for a little girl. It was fine. That January, my daughter was invited to the TOPs program which had the girls training TOPs in the morning from 6:30 - 9:00 AM. Again, I thought this was insane but my daughter wanted to do it. Again, it was fine. During 1st grade she just did this one day per week and moved to 2 days per week after that.

Our gym was rather new and didn't have a boy's pre-team yet but they told me they were creating one and put the boys together who would eventually make up that team. These boys took a rec class together 2 days per week for 1.5 hours. The next summer when my son was 7 1/2 was when they created the pre-team for boys and had the boys team coach them. My daughter moved up to level 4 that year. Both moved to level 5 the next year, both skipped level 6 and went to 7 the following year. Both stayed at 7 last year (my son because too young to move to 8 and my daughter switched gyms and her coached wanted to improve her confidence). My son will compete level 8 this year. The plan was for my daughter to compete a couple meets of 8 then move to 9 but she has been injured all summer - first the left shoulder/back to gym a week and injured the right shoulder/neck. She is still out on injury and I really can't see her competing this season.
Even though my kids were always the same level, my daughter always went more hours. This sport is much more kind, schedule wise, to boys. The boys program prevents them from moving too quickly while the girls program encourages girls to move through the levels quickly. It is just the nature of when girls peak versus boys.

I don't know if this helps you at all but thought I would share our experience. My son's gym now has a healthy boys pre-team program so boys are more quickly brought into pre-team. I think they can start training with the pre-team at 5 but can't compete until they are 6.

 

[profmom]

Yes, that's right -- no competition until they're 6 on the boys' side. DS's team has some VERY young L4s who will have to sit out the first meet.

DS's team breaks out the 4s. Right now there is a glut of L5 boys, so they are also their own practice group. The small number of 6s practice with the optional boys but don't go as many hours. DS, for complicated reasons, is training L6 hours this year (so sixteen hours a week), but the hours for L5 are generally eleven.

The program director's goal is to get boys into optionals by around puberty. Pre-puberty, the emphasis is on building as strong a skill set as possible and trying to get the boy to develop good form. The gym's Future Stars program is in transition but will probably have more boys in it next year. From what I have seen, FS is all about form.

For the guys, there are some things they just can't really master until they've gone through puberty, especially on rings and parallel bars. So one philosophy for building the potential college or elite male gymnast is to work with them and get the basics as clean as possible while waiting for puberty to happen. Yes, try to get them strong, but recognize that they just aren't going to be there until they have all that extra testosterone to build the muscle.

What's interesting to me (at least around here) is that if you look at the median L4-6 boy on floor and high bar, and compare him to the median L4-6 girl, the boy is going to look sloppy -- legs apart on the handsprings, sometimes wonky round-offs, form breaks in swings for which a girl would get killed. I don't think this can be solely attributed to the fact that the boys are training six events and the girls only four. Clearly boys can be taught to do these things cleanly, but I'd say even among our optional guys, we only have one right now who tumbles like a girl. (I hasten to add that the very best compulsory boys we see at states do look good on all the events. Not sure, though, how the L5 boys' state champ would fare against the L5 (or new L4) girls' state champ on floor if they swapped routines.) I think it's the philosophy that it's enough of a longer road for the guys that development can proceed on a slower time frame, and thus as a general rule the boys are training their six events through a smaller total number of hours than the similar level girls are training their four.

 

[Outlast]

Wow the differences in hours between the gyms is interesting, 2G1B. It was great to read about his path. I wonder why the change with the starting age in the first gym? Maturity perhaps. I assume that is why it's 6 here.

MyBoysFlip and profmom it seems like it would make sense to allow the boys a chance to be together from an early age. I guess some gyms or coaches perhaps are able to handle the boys at an earlier age.

So are there any general rules on repeating each level once, twice, or more at your gyms? I'm wondering if it's common. Because boys peak much later they do have more years in the sport.

I love hearing all the answers and dialogue! Thank you!

Oh is there a boys social group?

 

[skschlag]

We have no hard and fast rule about repeating. Our coach takes each child individually and decides what is best for him at that time. It could be repeatin gor pushing forward. But it is very individual.

There isn't a boys' social group, but the MAG group is so small that we are all here all the time

 

[Outlast]

I had a question or two that would be better asked privately. And hesitate to put it out there for the whole world to see, LOL.

 

[skschlag]

Well, let's start one!!!

 

[Outlast]

Would a private message be better? I am so new to Chalkbucket. I am still figuring all this out.

 

[skschlag]

We can do either. A group isn't a bad idea.....maybe both?