Offshoot from the gym opening suggestions thread

[Aussie_coach]

You are supposed to wear it in public. My husband's work requires them to wear it at the office, the moment you get out of the car. Granted, not everyone complies but most do.

Not here, in fact not too long ago we were told we should NOT be wearing masks in public unless we are sick. I believe that was because if concerns that there were not enough masks, not sure.

Interestingly I just went to the shopping mall this morning. For the first time since this all began 95% of the stores were open.

The mall was quite crowded for a Thursday morning (presumably due to many people not working or attending schools). Around 1 in 30 people were wearing masks.

 

[Pirouette]

I wear a mask to the grocery store. I don't wear a mask to the grocery store for my own safety. I wear one because it gives peace of mind to other shoppers, especially the senior citizens who are at much higher risk of negative outcomes of infection than I am.

It costs so little to give a lot of people peace of mind. We all need a little more peace.

 

[littlegirlsdream]

Has anyone thought about the rec program? We all know teams do not make the gym money, their rec programs do. How can gyms operate with teams only? The amount of money needed to pay rent, insurance, electricity, employees, etc can not be generated by the team alone. How is that going to work? Rec parents will not drop their little Susie at the door. Having only teams staggered throughout the day is a great idea for the team kids but it’s not good for the gym.

This is interesting. Our gym actually does not have a rec program at all. There is tramp and tumbling, girls and boys teams, 2 levels of devo and that’s it. DD went back to practice mon. Very modified, limited hours, fewer than 10 kids at a time, no spotting, each kid gets own piece of equipment for so much time then they sanitize it, wash hands and rotate. I go to local stores like target or a grocery store and I see way, way more exposure. Many people not following social distancing, touching of products, shelves, mask not being worn at all or being worn incorrectly. I feel like at this point DD gym situation is far more controlled then other places that are open. This is all so hard, confusing, sad and frustrating on so many different levels. Noting about this is easy for anyone I don’t believe.

 

[NutterButter]

Well that doesn’t make me feel good about our upcoming move up there. MN is one of the few states with a current RO over 1. I would think that people would be trying to combat that.

Wait...you are moving to MN?!?! Holy cow - that's cool! PM me if you have any questions about the Twin Cities! I'm not native even though I've been here for 17 years.

 

[Gigi]

Not here, in fact not too long ago we were told we should NOT be wearing masks in public unless we are sick. I believe that was because if concerns that there were not enough masks, not sure.

Interestingly I just went to the shopping mall this morning. For the first time since this all began 95% of the stores were open.

The mall was quite crowded for a Thursday morning (presumably due to many people not working or attending schools). Around 1 in 30 people were wearing masks.

Probably because there aren't a lot of cases in Australia. Although my niece has some friends from Australia she met on a cruise that her whole family caught it. They have all recovered from it. They had all the symptoms, tiredness, fever and body aches. My niece, my sister and her husband all think they had it from the same cruise back in December but won't know for sure unless they take the antibodies test. We saw them while they were all sick one after another but none of my family caught whatever it is from them.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Yet, even with low cases, it will be at least 2 more months before gyms can reopen.

 

[JessSyd]

I sort of wish they would ask people to wear at least cloth masks here (in the Australian state with the most cases) while entering indoor public spaces. Shopping centres etc all feel so normal now that people are starting to forget to socially distance. And we need people to remember to do that as much as possible if we want to open up again.

Masks in indoor public places, while not exercising, would at least be a good visual reminder that we are not at the business as usual stage yet.

 

[xxStumpyxx]

Probably because there aren't a lot of cases in Australia. Although my niece has some friends from Australia she met on a cruise that her whole family caught it. They have all recovered from it. They had all the symptoms, tiredness, fever and body aches. My niece, my sister and her husband all think they had it from the same cruise back in December but won't know for sure unless they take the antibodies test. We saw them while they were all sick one after another but none of my family caught whatever it is from them.

Did they get tested and get it confirmed or did they get a diagnosis based on their symptoms?

There might have been a chance that I have had it and my sister who I work with in a close confined area also might have had it.

I visited London for the weekend at the beginning of February and just after (around a week) I started experience what I thought were flu symptoms as Covid-19 wasnt well known then, I had aches, a cough that lasted weeks, mild breathing issues, a temperature that was short lived and the chills and shaking one night despite bring very hot.

My sister caught an assumed flu like bug around a week later after I started getting ill, she felt ill for over a month, similar symptoms to mine with a few additional symptoms like hives and conjunctivitis, she started getting sick in February and was still feeling some of the symptoms into mid March, as we both assumed it was seasonal Flu we carried on working and took paracetamol to ease the aches. We can never be sure if it was seasonal flu or Covid 19 as we haven’t had an antibody test, one thing for sure though no matter what it was the cough took ages to go and to feel better again.

 

[Gigi]

Did they get tested and get it confirmed or did they get a diagnosis based on their symptoms?

For my sister's family, they got sick the tail-end of the cruise. They did not get tested, COVID19 was just becoming news in China when they got back. Their friends who live in Australia got sick a couple of weeks after, so who knows, they may have contracted after the cruise. The Australian family was diagnosed by symptoms only, but their symptoms were right on, whereas my sister's family's illness was more like a bad flu with no breathing problems, chills or high fever, although they still think it could be COVID19 because it was pretty bad and lasted a while. This family gets the flu every year, so they are very well versed about flu symptoms and think this flu is different from flus they experienced in the past. None of them was ever bedridden they were up and around the whole time. They may have stayed home from school and work for a day. In corporate America, if you take 3 sick days in a row it is frowned on, even though a flu takes a long time to heal and is contagious. It should be noted that the cruise ship had a break out a month after their cruise and was grounded and quarantined for a long time. There is no way to know if they actually had it unless they take the antibody but I don't think they are going to do that.

 

[3rd_time_around]

How do you get away with that?! I didn't wear a mask one day walking my dog and some guy in the neighborhood was like shaming me and telling me that I can get fined a $1000. That was literally the day after the new guideline and I hadn't even heard about it yet!

All over the neighborhood people are taking photos of others gathering and posting on social media to shame them. One neighbor said she called the police on some family members gathering and sharing chips and dip at the park, she even stuck around to take a photo to post on social media.

I just don’t wear one. if someone tried to shame me, I’d ignore them. A fine like that is unconstitutional and can be litigated. The way I’ve seen most—yes most—people wearing their masks, they might as well not be wearing them at all. The poor guy at Walmart today trying to explain something to me finally just took his off so he could talk. I saw another man wearing one and he was obviously having great difficulty breathing with it on, and was visibly sucking in the mask and then puffing it out and looked so distressed I felt sorry for him. Most people have it over their mouths with their nose uncovered, or under their chin, or very loose. My adult daughter takes immunosuppressants and has an autoimmune disorder and never wears one either. She has been to many stores and has travelled into NC twice already, staying with friends for her doctor’s appointments and to pack up her college dorm. She says she feels like she’s suffocating so she doesn’t wear one.

Well this sounds like Nazi Germany! Holy cow! It didn’t take long for Americans to be convinced to turn on each other.

 

[3rd_time_around]

.... what, are you going to demand to speak to covid's manager and tell them that? It's a virus. It doesn't care what you will or won't stand for.



It's mortality rate in the US is, by current official numbers, just shy of 6% (though according to this article on the Economist, the number dead from covid may be significantly higher than the official numbers). For comparison, the flu has a 0.2% mortality rate.



Please reconsider this. At the very least, wear a mask. A recent model Link Removed And all you need to do to be part of the solution (not the problem) is wear a mask when you're out in public. If you like, I can get you in touch with one of my friends who is making cloth masks.

The purpose of wearing a mask isn't to stop you from getting sick; it's to stop you from getting other people sick. And since covid has many asymptomatic carriers, and since even those with symptoms become contagious before they display any symptoms, this is an important step for all of us, whether we feel sick or not.



Again, I urge you to reconsider your flippancy. To you, 6% mortality may just seem like an abstract number, but would you be cool with 6% of your family dying?

Forgive me if I seem a bit prickly about this, but my wife is immune compromised; if she catches it, her odds aren't great. And while I'm at it, her father has chronic respiratory issues, and my own parents are 72 and 64. And if everybody wore masks and tried to eliminate non-essential outings, all of them would be much safer; as is, every time I have to pick up groceries there's a chance I could get my wife killed just by breathing in the wrong place.
Because somebody who feels fine might be a carrier, and might have shown up to shop without a mask because they didn't realize they had it.



How many lives does your common sense say we should sacrifice for the economy? Or flipped another way, how much money should we be willing to sacrifice to keep people safe? For perspective, our current military budget is $700 billion; current projections suggest that the death rate could hit 3000 (roughly the number that died on 9/11/01) daily.



Covid has killed that many in two months.



Covid has killed more than that in April alone. Furthermore, we have very strict regulations on how people are permitted to use cars, and failure to abide by them can result in a revocation of driving rights even if nobody is injured. You are required by law to remain within certain speeds on public roads. You are required by law to wear a seatbelt on public roads. You are required by law to be uninhibited by alcohol or other substances while driving on public roads. You are required by law to drive in the correct lane. You are required by law to stop when told by an automated system (traffic lights) to stop. Etc, etc, etc.
We accept all of these laws because we recognize that they keep us and the people around us safer.
By comparison, having to wear a mask and maintain 6 feet of distance from other shoppers seems pretty minor.

As I have said many times before: the goal should be for it to feel like we overreacted. And honestly, we won't really even know how bad the problem really is, or how much of a risk there is with reopening, until testing catches up to actual infection numbers -- and right now it's not even close.


Sadly, the violence already begun.

At any rate, you didn't really address the rest of my post. Do you think attendance at crowded events will spike right back up to 100% where it was before?

These numbers are not accurate. Right now the chances of dying from this are 0.00007%. You have a better chance of being struck by lightening 4 times (not my opinion, I read this). I do think attendance would be quite high, if some government people would loosen their reins. We weren’t forced into captivity to eradicate the virus, but to slow it down, and it did. It will also drag on the longer we do this. The countries that didn’t force their people into unemployment and house arrest are already getting back to normal and didn’t overwhelm the hospitals either.

This country is suffering—not from sickness, but from fear, looming bankruptcy, insecurity in being unemployed, uncertainty, depression, and isolation. I see the effects it’s having on my kids and it’s not good. My youngest has become afraid of people, of being away from me even for a few minutes, has anxiety all the time, cries more than she ever has before, has given up on trying to stay in shape because “what difference does it make, my gym is never going to reopen,” and she is so lonely without her bestie, has been away from her grandparents for 3 months, and our trip to see the other family members in another state with draconian lockdown measures and a power-abusing governor has been cancelled.

As far as another wave causing this kind of shutdown and confinement again? We as a country will not survive. We can’t open back up only to shut it all down again in 3 months. We have to adjust and keep going. .

 

[Jenny]

the ICU wards in hospitals in Italy and Spain were overwhelmed as were the mortuaries. I think a lot depends on where you live. If you live in a high density population you are more at risk. If you live in the sticks you are probably more able to carry on as normal.

 

[KipWinger]

Right now the chances of dying from this are 0.00007%. You have a better chance of being struck by lightening 4 times (not my opinion, I read this). I do think attendance would be quite high, if some government people would loosen their reins. We weren’t forced into captivity to eradicate the virus, but to slow it down, and it did. It will also drag on the longer we do this. The countries that didn’t force their people into unemployment and house arrest are already getting back to normal and didn’t overwhelm the hospitals either.

I don't post very often but these statements are dangerously ignorant and offensive, particularly to those of us who have lost people COVID. Please see the link below for estimates of the case-fatality ratio for COVID from Johns Hopkins, which in the US, is approximately 6.0%. While the actual mortality rate is likely considerably lower given the lack of widespread testing in this country (resulting in the lack of detection of asymptomatic or mild cases), it is most certainly many, many orders of magnitude higher than the rate you mentioned. Also, 330 people in the US get hit by lightning each year, a number far lower than the 77,000 people in the US, the 9000 people in my state, and the 1500 people in your state who have died from COVID.

Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.

coronavirus.jhu.edu

You're lucky that no one you know has been affected. Everyone in my area knows someone who has, and I'm not in NYC or one of the hardest hit areas. But, given that fewer and fewer people are staying home and practicing social distancing, I fear more and more people will be affected.

Obviously, the economic toll of the virus has been catastrophic. I'm a small business owner. I know this. However, the "choice" between public health and the economy is a false one. You can't have a healthy economy when thousands of people are dying every day.

A few other notes. The countries that "didn't force their people into unemployment," eg, Sweden, would have been able to handle a giant influx of patients into their hospitals because of the strength of their health system, a luxury the US doesn't have.

And importantly, given the risk of COVID to the most vulnerable, we wear masks in public. We don't wear masks to protect ourselves, we wear masks to protect others. So statements such as this, "Well this sounds like Nazi Germany!" are also pretty offensive.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

These numbers are not accurate. Right now the chances of dying from this are 0.00007%. You have a better chance of being struck by lightening 4 times (not my opinion, I read this). I do think attendance would be quite high, if some government people would loosen their reins. We weren’t forced into captivity to eradicate the virus, but to slow it down, and it did. It will also drag on the longer we do this. The countries that didn’t force their people into unemployment and house arrest are already getting back to normal and didn’t overwhelm the hospitals either.

The numbers I used came from reliable sources (which I posted links to), but if you can link to a reputable source that backs up your numbers I'd be happy to take a look at it.

 

[NY Dad]

Well this sounds like Nazi Germany!

That's an offensive comment. Comments like that are forcing a polarisation between 'good' and 'evil' into a discussion that could have reasonable positions on both sides. Save strong words for the argument itself, rather than attacking the people you're arguing with.

 

[skschlag]

I think the issue is looking at the case fatality rate, versus looking at the infection fatality rate. The case fatality rate right now is around 6%, but only includes tested positive cases (and some presumed). However, we do not know the infection fatality rate because we do not truly know the actual infection rate. From those that were sick before we were thinking about CoVid19, to those that have not been tested during this time, there is no know infection fatality rate.

This particular study estimates the infection fatality rate to be around 1.3%. RIght now, the estimates are all we have.

Study Puts U.S. COVID-19 Infection Fatality Rate at 1.3%

As alarming as the numbers appear, the researchers said, their estimates "may be slightly conservative."

www.healthleadersmedia.com

 

[3rd_time_around]

That's an offensive comment. Comments like that are forcing a polarisation between 'good' and 'evil' into a discussion that could have reasonable positions on both sides. Save strong words for the argument itself, rather than attacking the people you're arguing with.

When a government tells you to wear a mask or go to jail, when they encourage and reward tattling for minor things that aren’t unconstitutional, when your fellow citizens call you selfish for wanting to have your protected liberties, when you get shamed in public and all over social media for not agreeing with or following “the rules” then that’s what it’s like. Not offensive, it’s true.

I’m not going to keep answering every post where you all are trying to shame me or anyone else for not wearing a mask, because that’s not what this board is for. I’m not ignoring, I’m moving on because this is a gymnastics message board.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

When a government tells you to wear a mask or go to jail, when they encourage and reward tattling for minor things that aren’t unconstitutional, when your fellow citizens call you selfish for wanting to have your protected liberties, when you get shamed in public and all over social media for not agreeing with or following “the rules” then that’s what it’s like. Not offensive, it’s true.

Why is wearing a mask such a big deal to you? That's the part I don't understand. Like.... you honestly think being asked to wear a mask is comparable to state-sponsored mass murder?

I’m not going to keep answering every post where you all are trying to shame me or anyone else for not wearing a mask, because that’s not what this board is for. I’m not ignoring, I’m moving on because this is a gymnastics message board.

I'd argue that it's every American's patriotic duty to wear a mask when out in public; by dealing with a negligible inconvenience, you could keep your fellow Americans safer. If even that minuscule inconvenience to help keep your fellow Americans safe is too much for you, then yes, you should be ashamed. And hopefully that shame will lead you to reconsider.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I'd argue that it's every American's patriotic duty to wear a mask when out in public; by dealing with a negligible inconvenience, you could keep your fellow Americans safer. If even that minuscule inconvenience to help keep your fellow Americans safe is too much for you, then yes, you should be ashamed. And hopefully that shame will lead you to reconsider.

now this is offensive. It’s not patriotic at all. Good grief! Next you’ll be saying it’s patriotic for governors to throw people in jail for playing on a swing set. I will not reconsider. Stop trying to force people to conform to what you think is right by being rude and offensive! You must stop with all the “it’s for safety” mantra. If you were on board with that like you say you are, you wouldn’t have kids in gymnastics, or coach gymnastics, or promote gymnastics because it’s one of the highest injury-yielding sports around.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

now this is offensive.

I find it offensive that you think the minuscule inconvenience of wearing a mask to help protect your fellow humans is a bridge too far. I mean, with regards to economic reopening and such I may disagree with you, but at least that would be a defensible position with sound arguments that could be put forward to support it. But against wearing a mask? What does it cost you such that it is worse than potentially getting people killed by spreading disease?

It’s not patriotic at all. Good grief! Next you’ll be saying it’s patriotic for governors to throw people in jail for playing on a swing set.

No, playing outside is generally (assuming social distance is respected and you wash your hands before and after) pretty safe. Some localities have gone overboard on enforcement of this sort of thing.

But when you are inside an area that is frequented by large numbers of other people, refusing to wear a mask is like driving drunk, in that it puts the people around you at greater risk. Both private entities and government entities have every right to ask you to respect the safety of your fellow humans. There is nothing whatsoever in the constitution that would prevent the government from mandating facemasks, and there's even less that would prevent private companies from denying entry without a mask.

I will not reconsider. Stop trying to force people to conform to what you think is right by being rude and offensive!

You literally compared wearing a mask to state-sponsored mass murder. You don't have a leg to stand on in complaining about anybody being rude or offensive.

You must stop with all the “it’s for safety” mantra. If you were on board with that like you say you are, you wouldn’t have kids in gymnastics, or coach gymnastics, or promote gymnastics because it’s one of the highest injury-yielding sports around.

I've retired from coaching, and one of the reasons (though certainly not the only one) is that I don't think upper-level gymnastics is worth the risk that comes with it.

However, as a coach, I was (and will continue to be in retirement) a strong proponent of building strong basics before building advanced skills, specifically for safety reasons. For the back half of my coaching career, I never coached anything higher than level 6, despite being given the opportunity, because I didn't see upper-level gymnastics as being worth the risk. I refused to coach in cheer gyms, because of the high incidence of injury and what I viewed as a lack of safe training progressions in most cheer gyms. Etc.


Here's a question for you: do you believe you have a right to drive while drunk? Why or why not?