Men optionals

[sce]

Hi all,

I know the nest quad the info is still very new. But can someone tell me the main differences in requirements (other than age) between level 9 and level 10? As well, what is difference between JD and JO for those levels?

 

[skschlag]

So I know that one difference between JO 9/10 is the number of skills required. Level 9 requires 8, level 10 requires 10. Both in the last quad required all element groups, which I think will be easier with just 4 element groups. Scoring values are different as well. At level 9, a B is .5 and an A is .3, at 10, an A is 0, a B is .3, and a C is .5. You also need a B dismount at 9 for credit, at 10 it is a c/d dismount.

At JD 9 you need 6 skills, at 10 you need 8. Both are A dismounts.

That is what I understand so far..

 

[sce]

So I know that one difference between JO 9/10 is the number of skills required. Level 9 requires 8, level 10 requires 10. Both in the last quad required all element groups, which I think will be easier with just 4 element groups. Scoring values are different as well. At level 9, a B is .5 and an A is .3, at 10, an A is 0, a B is .3, and a C is .5. You also need a B dismount at 9 for credit, at 10 it is a c/d dismount.

At JD 9 you need 6 skills, at 10 you need 8. Both are A dismounts.

That is what I understand so far..

Thanks, that is quite helpful.

 

[krc]

Scoring values are different as well. At level 9, a B is .5 and an A is .3, at 10, an A is 0, a B is .3, and a C is .5. You also need a B dismount at 9 for credit, at 10 it is a c/d dismount.

Skschlag,
At all JO/E optional levels skill values are the same as FIG - A=.1, B=.2, C=.3, D=.4 etc. I think what you are referring to is the dismount value. L9 requires a B element for full value, and L10 requires a C, and that is the value for fulfilling the element group - not for the skill itself.

Also the it is the number of skills counted in a routine, not required. A subtle but important distinction. L9 routines have a minimum of 6 parts and a max of 8. For L10 it is 6 and 10.

Happy solstice!
KRC

 

[skschlag]

Skschlag,
At all JO/E optional levels skill values are the same as FIG - A=.1, B=.2, C=.3, D=.4 etc. I think what you are referring to is the dismount value. L9 requires a B element for full value, and L10 requires a C, and that is the value for fulfilling the element group - not for the skill itself.

Also the it is the number of skills counted in a routine, not required. A subtle but important distinction. L9 routines have a minimum of 6 parts and a max of 8. For L10 it is 6 and 10.

Happy solstice!
KRC

thanks for that! I think our coach just went straight to the max, Probably for the start value not that it helped that much last year And thanks for the clarification on that...I meant to type dismounts but it apparently didn't happen. D was dictating lots of stuff to me, so I was not keeping up.

So, technically JD and minimal L10 are not that different?

I think this year is going to be very confusing

 

[sce]

I think this year is going to be very confusing

This is the only thing I am certain of.

 

[krc]

Hi Everyone,

JD is actually a step below JO. The main difference between JD and JO/E is that at JD there are no element group requirements. A JD score is basically 10.0 plus Difficulty. JO/E is 10.0 plus Element Groups (4 @ .5) plus difficulty. JD is aimed at the late-starter, HS age beginner, older L6/7 moving to optionals, etc.

100% agree with skschlag and sce. It's going to be an interesting year!

KRC
looking fwd to the first addendum/interpretation doc.

 

[profmom]

Hahahaha, KRC, I am guessing the first addendum/interpretation will be EPIC!

Our coach is really excited about JD. He believes it is a great development for the sport.

 

[skschlag]

Not sure our team is large enough to support JD/JO/JE and unfortunately I think I know which one will get left out. But...I suppose we need a coach before I stress about it too much lol

 

[sce]

Hi Everyone,

JD is actually a step below JO. The main difference between JD and JO/E is that at JD there are no element group requirements. A JD score is basically 10.0 plus Difficulty. JO/E is 10.0 plus Element Groups (4 @ .5) plus difficulty. JD is aimed at the late-starter, HS age beginner, older L6/7 moving to optionals, etc.

100% agree with skschlag and sce. It's going to be an interesting year!

KRC
looking fwd to the first addendum/interpretation doc.

Thanks, I think my kid falls in one of those categories it is aimed at, but he dislikes the idea of doing something that is a step below. Are there any requirements for JD? Is the only difference in level the age? But then why the age groups for JD 8 and JD 9 are the same?

 

[krc]

SCE,
The best way to think about JD is to forget the level designation and just think age groups. JD comes in two flavors. 12-14 and 15-18. The former counts 6 parts and the latter 8. There are no element group requirements, with the exception of an A value dismount. If your DS can fulfill most of the L8 groups or L9 FIG groups, it would be wiser to compete in JO. If he is unable to show 50% or more of the JO EG's then JD is probably the right place.

 

[Simaril]

I think there's going to be a lot of uncertainty and shuffling around this year. I'm unsure if competitions are even going to offer JD, or if there will be any boys in it. We're going to have more of those age groups and levels with ridiculously few kids in them :/

I have a boy who will be competing as a 13 yr old this year in his 3rd year of gymnastics. His first year he was level 4, and last year we pushed to level 6 - which started rough, but he ended up able to do 100% of the skills... Going into this season his options are:

1) repeat level 6 and compete at a high level rather than just getting through (too little progress, good back up plan)
2) keep him on the 'normal' progression and try to get him ready for the daunting level 7, which many gyms have always skipped... (traditional route... even USAG seems to be recognizing this isn't for everyone)
3) move him to level 9 JO so he's in a age/lv that qualifies to nationals, even though there's no way he's ready and no way he'll make it (very aggressive, could go badly in many ways)
4) prepare for JD, build routines that will work for the future, and hope there are meets that have JD competitions? (sounds nice, as long as there actually are competitions with JD and it gets him on a good trajectory)

I'm preparing him for level 7 because it does provide a reasonable progression for optional levels, but I know it's not a great fit. We can always go back to 6, or make up some JD routines.

I could go through all of my 'out of prime age group kids' and come up with similar options. Levels 4, 5, and 6 flow perfectly, but once after level 6, and age 11 the picture becomes muddy.

 

[profmom]

FWIW, Simaril, if I'm understanding you right, my son's coach is planning on your #4. His team has some guys who were L5-L6 in the 2014-15 season and competed either L5 or L7 in 2015-16. For the ones who will compete as 12-13 year olds this coming year who really aren't in a position to be successful at new L8 or L9, I believe the coach's plan is to have them compete JD this year but continue training with the goal of transferring over to L9 or L10 over the course of the next 2-3 years.

I am also very curious to see how many meets will run a JD division. Anyone out there got any idea what this will look like? I guess I've been assuming that meets with JD will just run the JD levels at the same time that they run the corresponding JO levels.

The kid you mention must be pretty impressive! That's a long way to go in just three years.

 

[gracyomalley]

DS did L4 at 10, then stuck at L5 for 3 seasons, then one of L7 and last year L8. He did meet basic L8 requirements in all events (except dismount from HB due to ankle injury), and did well in 4 of 6. He would have been well past the 70% for L9 this year but must go L10 due to the date cut off. JD is unlikely to thrive in our state/region due to small number of kids overall, and very few older kids were "kept back" in the past. I can imagine it would have been a good path for him back when he was 13 and just starting to get stronger but repeated L5 again...coaching was inconsistent at best and he has qualified for regionals every single year, so although that's not a super high bar, perhaps he could have moved faster?

What is most likely at this point is this change will lead him to quit this year instead of sticking with it a few more, which had been his hope, and making it to L10 when he was ready. Same for his older friend (state champion L8 last year) and at least one of the 13 year olds on the team. They may just be caught up in too many changes and none of them were planning on college gym anyway

He did L7 straight from L5 and was sometimes the only kid in his age group, but it was a much better transition for him to L8 than L6 would have been - and again, in our region it didn't matter that he only got a full HB routine at regionals ! (again, he did go to regionals and placed reasonably). The "in age" group here is relatively small in all levels after L5, so the new age limits and JD track could move most of our kids out of JO and JE over the years unless coaching skill changes significantly across the state.

My concern would be that with JD being practically "forced" on older but reasonably progressing athletes, and with the already significant difficulty finding adequate coaching especially in smaller, more rural areas, that the gyms without top notch and MULTIPLE coaches will end up being compulsory then JD gyms and the ones in larger areas will be the only ones able to use JD as intended.
This is already partially true with Future Stars and JE in our region. Perhaps this will be safer for the kids in the gyms with less than top notch coaching in the long run, but I still am not sure how this is a postive move overall - especially in the context of what seem ridiculous age cut offs.

I can see JD being great in areas where there are older kids wanting to start gym in middle school/high school, and with great coaches it could be a great transition in areas where there really are no older (11-13) compulsory level boys, or they would have to train with younger kids, etc. I suppose in a larger setting DS would love the opportunity to compete L10 ready rings, vault and floor but L9 ready pbars and high bar and (cough cough) L7 pommel....I am very curious how this will all work out in the future and if it brings more kids to mens gym that's great.

I still can't for the life of me explain to any friends (esp all my friends from when my DD competed) why on earth the men's program has maximum age for levels...

 

[rosiekat]

This may be a naive question, but would JD necessarily require a whole separate coaching? Obviously it requires coaches to have knowledge of the requirements, which is an extra burden. But our L6-L10 guys all train together, so (at least in this case) wouldn't it be a matter of each kid working on the skill he needs to work on? Johnny Superstar is going to be training a tougher skill than Bob Averageguy, but they can still train at the same time. The coach(es) will continue to need to know exactly where each boy is in each routine, which is a tracking issue, but one I assume they already deal with. We currently have around 40 on team (but that includes about 11-13 who are levels 4 or 5 with separate training time) and 2 coaches.

 

[sce]

What is most likely at this point is this change will lead him to quit this year instead of sticking with it a few more, which had been his hope, and making it to L10 when he was ready. Same for his older friend (state champion L8 last year) and at least one of the 13 year olds on the team. They may just be caught up in too many changes and none of them were planning on college gym anyway


I can see JD being great in areas where there are older kids wanting to start gym in middle school/high school, and with great coaches it could be a great transition in areas where there really are no older (11-13) compulsory level boys, or they would have to train with younger kids, etc. I suppose in a larger setting DS would love the opportunity to compete L10 ready rings, vault and floor but L9 ready pbars and high bar and (cough cough) L7 pommel....I am very curious how this will all work out in the future and if it brings more kids to mens gym that's great.

I still can't for the life of me explain to any friends (esp all my friends from when my DD competed) why on earth the men's program has maximum age for levels...

I hope your boy does not feel forced out of the sport. Truly sad if he does as the intent of JD is to keep kids like him in the sport. Though I understand how it might not work in practice.

I agree, the max ages are confusing. As well, I also question why it makes sense to add JD, are there really enough boys anywhere to have so many divisions? Even in my populated region there were not that many older boys (age 15+) in level 8 or level 9. Presumably, these boys would all be the ones who should now be JD level 10 instead?

 

[profmom]

Rosiekat, I don't think it would require separate coaching. The skill progressions are pretty much what they are, regardless of what level a kid is competing. For instance, all JD guys will start with a base hi bar routine that incorporates giants (ideally front and back) and a turning skill to make the transition. You then just build up from there by adding the most difficult skills that can be done cleanly and consistently. I think it will be especially good on rings, where a JD guy with a lot of strength but not much swinging ability or shoulder flexibility could put together a routine that could show that off without worrying about hitting all the group requirements. Or, uh, vice versa (not that I know anyone who's much better at swinging than strength, haha!).

Have any of you heard any rumblings about older boys doing rec or parkour possibly moving over to JD? I think that may be a thing.

 

[skschlag]

I can see where the fear is in doing JD level 10, because it says.. level 10! But really, I am not so sure the routine would be that different that level 6/7. YOu could do kip, freehip, back giants, blind change, front giants, endo, pirouette, back giants, flyaway. I would imagine that could be a routine...but I could be wrong. Then you build on it from there to add skills that would get you to JO level 10.

You could say the same on all the events....I can see the benefit....but see the concern with kids not wanting to do a "lesser" track. I would think your DS could compete JO L 9.

 

[sce]

Rosiekat, I don't think it would require separate coaching. The skill progressions are pretty much what they are, regardless of what level a kid is competing.

This is my ds' coach's thought. He's not evne worrying about what level eh will compete, they are just focusing on the skills for now.

 

[sce]

One more question for those in the know: For junior Development is it level 8, level 9 and level 10, ie 3 levels? Or level 8/9 and level 10, ie 2 levels?

I will say that based on the ages and the number of older boys who usually do these levels having only 2 levels makes more sense, but that complicates the pommel horse situation. Is it with or without pommels?

Thanks!!!