Women Phasing out compulsories?

[raenndrops]

As an observer I don't understand why you can't go the compulsory route with lower hours? My DD is currently planning on level 5 next year and will probably be at around 10 hours. Bronze was 5, level 3 was 8.5, level 4 was 9. She isn't an all star by any means but playing another sport is important for now only being 9 and has at least medaled at every competition she's participated in.

You can go the compulsory route with lower hours, but there are a lot of gyms that go crazy with the hours.
With effective practices, there is no reason that Level 3 gymnasts need 12+ hours a week ... and I have heard of up to 16 hours a week in Level 3.

But there are also Xcel to Optionals gyms that treat their Xcel gymnasts like DP gymnasts, both in hours and requirements. They want their gymnasts competing maximum level routines to make the transition to optionals easier.

 

[raenndrops]

I just want to add that I think Xcel’s lower hours, flexible routine construction, and less stringent requirements are a great thing for the majority of gymnasts and I would never want that to change! A gym could run Xcel like DP with higher hours and more stringent gym-imposed requirements and that would adequately prepare gymnasts for optionals but it would ruin Xcel! I very much do not want to see the spirit of the Xcel program compromised.

I agree, but unfortunately, some gyms have been going against the "spirit of the Xcel program" since it was nationalized. It seems like more and more gyms (especially in region 8) do it.
Luckily, I only see some of those gyms once a year ... funny enough, I will probably see a few later this week.

 

[ORgymmom]

As an observer I don't understand why you can't go the compulsory route with lower hours? My DD is currently planning on level 5 next year and will probably be at around 10 hours. Bronze was 5, level 3 was 8.5, level 4 was 9. She isn't an all star by any means but playing another sport is important for now only being 9 and has at least medaled at every competition she's participated in.

I think lower hours are great if your gym has sufficient coaches, small groups, and organized workouts. When our athlete was in compulsories, she was in groups of 10-16 with one coach, lots of waiting around, and rotations that always got interrupted by optionals or elites needing equipment or coaches subbing while other coaches were at meets with different groups. We didn’t realize how inefficient it was until an out-of-state gym switch to one that happened to do lower hours. She was sore the first few weeks because they got way more done and were never waiting around.

 

[Sebastian12]

I just want to add that I think Xcel’s lower hours, flexible routine construction, and less stringent requirements are a great thing for the majority of gymnasts and I would never want that to change! A gym could run Xcel like DP with higher hours and more stringent gym-imposed requirements and that would adequately prepare gymnasts for optionals but it would ruin Xcel! I very much do not want to see the spirit of the Xcel program compromised.

I feel a lot of mixed assumptions are made in this thread. What xcel does is to give a chance for more girls to progress on their own paths.

our region has a large and strong xcel presence…here is some myth debunking:

1. Many xcel programs are smaller than DP, although with fewer hours on paper, the actual practice may be more effective;

2. Xcel doesn’t not focus on forms is a fallacy. The same goes to the opposite argument - being strict is ruining the xcel spirit. Gymnasts are coached to perform a skill correctly and safely, and that does not fluctuate with the code of points. Yes a 150 split jump will get the same score at one point but gymnasts don’t stop striving for 180. All our xcel then optional gymnasts have done well- including winning states and regionals, and none of them trained over 12 hours before level 6/7.

3. Just because you dont compete a skill, doesnt mean you dont practice or learn a skill. The final routine is the one that may give you the highest scores, but as an example, I haven’t heard of any xcel girls who don’t practice BER even though it is rarely competed.

The “skipping skills” thing is to not hold girls back just because they can’t get one skill - allowing them to work on that skill while progressing them to the next level and maintaining their interest. And yes, xcel has a whole set of required skills for each level too, you can’t just cruise along without learning the key skills.

4. Xcel kids can have college dreams, and DP kids don’t necessarily have to have college dreams. Most lower level young kids don’t even know what college actually is…with the difficulty to get into college gymnastics, I believe most families just want to take one step at a time and see where the journey takes them. Triaging the kids so young based on “college dream”, “having other interests” is completely arbitrary.
Example, my daughter has no interest in college gymnastics, but it won’t stop her from wanting to progress to level 10, and most of her gym friends are like that.

5. Xcel sapphire is level 10 equivalent. I have no doubt xcel will be college bound in the coming years.

I am a firm believer that no matter which path works for the kids, as long as it makes them happy and progress, it is a good path.

 

[RTT2]

Given how difficult it is for even multi year level 10s to get a spot on a team, I’ll be surprised if many Sapphires are recruited.

 

[NutterButter]

I don't think many sapphires will be recruited either. D3, perhaps. Maybe even an Ivy. But not Top 25.

 

[Dahlialover]

@Sebastian12

It’s an interesting question how many hours are truly necessary and at what ages to prepare gymnasts the reach level 10 by 8th or 9th grade in order to optimize college recruiting opportunities. I do not know the answer. I’d be curious if there are any programs out there that produce D1 recruits training Xcel hours. If someone is doing it, I’d love to hear about it.

 

[ORgymmom]

I don't think many sapphires will be recruited either. D3, perhaps. Maybe even an Ivy. But not Top 25.

Will there even be scholarship programs below the Top 25 in a few years?! I’m an NCAA track & field and swim & dive fan, and watching how fast changes have hit those sports points towards scary upheaval for Olympic NCAA sports like gymnastics. I think there will be a weird barbell in D1 with P4 teams and Ivy teams + service academies at either end, and no one left in the middle.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

@Sebastian12

It’s an interesting question how many hours are truly necessary and at what ages to prepare gymnasts the reach level 10 by 8th or 9th grade in order to optimize college recruiting opportunities. I do not know the answer. I’d be curious if there are any programs out there that produce D1 recruits training Xcel hours. If someone is doing it, I’d love to hear about it.

I suspect it would be possible to back off on the hours once an athlete reaches the top levels. Once perfect basics are hard-coded into muscle memory, training can become more efficient, and I suspect a sufficiently advanced athlete could train effectively with fewer hours than a mid-level athlete.

I seem to recall reading that in his later years of competition, Jordan Jovtchev was only training an hour a day.

But I think at those developmental levels, you need higher numbers of repetitions in order to really perfect those basics and program them into muscle memory. In addition, I think elite levels of strength is hard to build, but easy to maintain, meaning you have to put in a lot more hours to get up to that point than you do to stay strong once you get there.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I just want to add that I think Xcel’s lower hours, flexible routine construction, and less stringent requirements are a great thing for the majority of gymnasts and I would never want that to change! A gym could run Xcel like DP with higher hours and more stringent gym-imposed requirements and that would adequately prepare gymnasts for optionals but it would ruin Xcel! I very much do not want to see the spirit of the Xcel program compromised.

Unfortunately, this way of using Xcel is happening and has been for many years. I agree with you that making it the same cost and hours as DP is ruining it for the gyms and gymnasts that are training Xcel in the way it was meant to be--less hours, less money, more fun. It is very hard for them to compete with gyms that train Xcel like DP, who keep girls on the levels for 2-3 years (yes, I'm serious! A quick check on mymeetscores will show how many years they've been on a level. One gym I know of competes about 12-13 meets a year, keeping girls on the level for avg of 2 years. If your gym competes their Silvers at only 5-6 meets a year and then they move up, it would be like competing against Silvers that have competed 4 seasons). How discouraging for the teams that train Xcel in the way it was meant to be to go to a meet knowing they will probably have no one on the podium.

Another problem is that Xcel is still often looked down on as "levels for less talented gymnasts," so it's been an uphill struggle in some places for it to be more respected. In a gym that until recently was straight DP, but started Xcel because there were very few gyms left in the area that compete compulsory, the upper level Xcel girls are still looked down on even though they are good gymnasts--just not ready with all optional level requirements.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I feel a lot of mixed assumptions are made in this thread. What xcel does is to give a chance for more girls to progress on their own paths.

our region has a large and strong xcel presence…here is some myth debunking:

1. Many xcel programs are smaller than DP, although with fewer hours on paper, the actual practice may be more effective;

2. Xcel doesn’t not focus on forms is a fallacy. The same goes to the opposite argument - being strict is ruining the xcel spirit. Gymnasts are coached to perform a skill correctly and safely, and that does not fluctuate with the code of points. Yes a 150 split jump will get the same score at one point but gymnasts don’t stop striving for 180. All our xcel then optional gymnasts have done well- including winning states and regionals, and none of them trained over 12 hours before level 6/7.

3. Just because you dont compete a skill, doesnt mean you dont practice or learn a skill. The final routine is the one that may give you the highest scores, but as an example, I haven’t heard of any xcel girls who don’t practice BER even though it is rarely competed.

The “skipping skills” thing is to not hold girls back just because they can’t get one skill - allowing them to work on that skill while progressing them to the next level and maintaining their interest. And yes, xcel has a whole set of required skills for each level too, you can’t just cruise along without learning the key skills.

4. Xcel kids can have college dreams, and DP kids don’t necessarily have to have college dreams. Most lower level young kids don’t even know what college actually is…with the difficulty to get into college gymnastics, I believe most families just want to take one step at a time and see where the journey takes them. Triaging the kids so young based on “college dream”, “having other interests” is completely arbitrary.
Example, my daughter has no interest in college gymnastics, but it won’t stop her from wanting to progress to level 10, and most of her gym friends are like that.

5. Xcel sapphire is level 10 equivalent. I have no doubt xcel will be college bound in the coming years.

I am a firm believer that no matter which path works for the kids, as long as it makes them happy and progress, it is a good path.

Curious how long you've been around gymnastics? Not being rude, it's just that Xcel programs are outnumbering DP, so they are actually the bigger program. Many gyms are going "Xcel only" and not even going to DP ever.

Most Xcel-only gyms do not even practice skills they won't be using. I know in my dd's gym, they do not work on BERs at all, unless they are going to a score-out meet., and it is true for many Xcel programs--they do not bother with skills they will not be competing because they want to focus on what will score the highest. Xcel has very few "required skills,' they have a list of skills to choose from for each level and they do the ones that will score the highest. They have 4 special requirements on each event, but very flexible choices to fulfill them.

Xcel Sapphire has lower requirements than level 10, different bonus structure, and skill restrictions. It's not level 10 equivalent, it's where level 10s can compete with less rigorous demands and less pressure. Right now, a Sapphire routine would not cut it at level 10 and definitely not at NCAA level except maybe DIII. Because Sapphire is actually for gymnasts coming from levels 8. 9. and 10, its not level 10 equivalent--its not equal. Just watching a Sapphire meet will show that. But the gymnasts are having fun, and that's good.

Again, no one is putting Xcel down, we are explaining the differences both good and bad.

 

[Sebastian12]

Curious how long you've been around gymnastics? Not being rude, it's just that Xcel programs are outnumbering DP, so they are actually the bigger program. Many gyms are going "Xcel only" and not even going to DP ever.

Most Xcel-only gyms do not even practice skills they won't be using. I know in my dd's gym, they do not work on BERs at all, unless they are going to a score-out meet., and it is true for many Xcel programs--they do not bother with skills they will not be competing because they want to focus on what will score the highest. Xcel has very few "required skills,' they have a list of skills to choose from for each level and they do the ones that will score the highest. They have 4 special requirements on each event, but very flexible choices to fulfill them.

Xcel Sapphire has lower requirements than level 10, different bonus structure, and skill restrictions. It's not level 10 equivalent, it's where level 10s can compete with less rigorous demands and less pressure. Right now, a Sapphire routine would not cut it at level 10 and definitely not at NCAA level except maybe DIII. Because Sapphire is actually for gymnasts coming from levels 8. 9. and 10, its not level 10 equivalent--its not equal. Just watching a Sapphire meet will show that. But the gymnasts are having fun, and that's good.

Again, no one is putting Xcel down, we are explaining the differences both good and bad.

I am speaking from the experiences I have from our region, which may be drastically different than yours. And it can be a testament of how strong xcel region can look like, coexisting with DP.

There is not a lot of intentional “put down” so everyone speaks, but the assumption is pretty clear on the thread that xcel is less than, and if
- 1) xcel programs do well, they ruin the spirit;
-2) xcel don’t do well, they are short cut half baked;
-3) can’t xcel be on its own in the future? No, sapphire is less than.

I am sorry I sound annoyed, but that pretty much summed up all the contradicting points here - you can do nothing right with xcel if you want to be a serious gymnast. And I find it untrue and creating negative impact on gymnasts (consciously and unconsciously).

Many parents around me feel blessed that there are now options for their kids - switching between the two tracks especially when having blocks, going through changes, etc.

Again, I feel putting kids in different buckets and creating that kind of devide is completely arbitrary —-

 

[RTT2]

I have no interest in arguing and I completely respect the Xcel program, but if they were essentially the same and had the same goals and outcomes there would be no need for two different programs.

 

[Exgymmomx3]

Here's a concrete example: a backhandspring on floor. For some kids they come easy, for some they are a source of frustration and mental blocks.

You are EXTREMELY unlikely to make level 10, or college, or elite without a strong backhandspring. But you can still have a blast learning to flip and twist and tumble without one.

you cannot make it through compulsories without a decent BHS, but you can make it to any level of xcel without one.

If you're a coach aiming to get an a group of athletes to a high level, a compulsory coach can easily tell an athlete or parent "your kid cannot move up until she has a strong BHS, because it's in the level 3, 4, and 5 routines." But as an xcel coach, you have the much harder task of explaining why they need a strong BHS even though they can score higher without it. If you're a strong communicator and a disciplined coach, you can probably convince most of the parents most of the time, but without those hard compulsory requirements, it's a much harder sell.

Xcel is GREAT for kids who are are uninterested in or unlikely to reach those upper-levels, because they don't face these skill bottlenecks; there are always workarounds. And there is nothing whatsoever wrong with doing gymnastics without the expectation of reaching those high levels. It's still provides a huge number of benefits, not the least of which is that it's a ton of fun!

But if the goal is to reach the upper-levels, the narrow path provided by compulsories is the most reliable way to get there.

THIS!!

 

[Exgymmomx3]

I was a gymnast from the 70’s at an elite training gym in the Midwest owned and coached by THE Bill Sands. FOUNDATION FOUNDATION FOUNDATION! My 3 girls who were upper level gymnasts in the 2000’s were drilled about foundation! Good old level 5-10. Prep-Op came in and was perfect for my cousin’s daughter who didn’t want to devote 20+hours a week to gymnastics. Not to mention the finances! They are both good programs but to become top level gymnasts I would choose DP each and every time! Just my opinion 50+years in the gymnastics community.