WAG Question About Excel

[Deleted member 18037]

Actually, USAG has said that you CANNOT compete both States in JO and Xcel in the same season… you can compete them both in the same YEAR… for example, Because New York has "Early" States and States, a gymnast could compete Early States as a JO and States as Xcel (similar to Fall Season and Spring season), but they are in violation of USAG R&P if they compete in States for both JO and Xcel in the spring.

Early States is in the same season and calendar year as it is in Feb, not Dec (or before).

I can only speak to Region 6.

From their newletter,

Xcel Regional Championship Eligibility
In the spirit of good sportsmanship, fairness to all athletes and competitive balance an athlete is not eligible to participate in the Regional Championships they have competed in the JO state or Regional Championships in the same competitive year.

A gymnast could do both states (JO and Xcel), but they would not qualify for Regionals even if they scored a 40, if they did a JO State.

Again its a rule. So be it.

However I still wouldn't say that keeps a "competitive balance" given how differently Xcel is used.

But it will never be fair as in all athletes trained equal. But that is true for pretty all sports.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

IGC has the 38 rule. 2-38s or higher in the same season and you must move to the next level.

I think it helps the situation where a gymmie is doing minimum skills for scores. No point in doing that because if you score big you need to move up a level. Better to do higher skills within the level.

I think it is easier to do in Xcel, IGC and JO optionals because there is a broader skill range. So the gymmies can do more without necessarily moving up a level.

In compulsories it is harder, because there is no skill flexibility within the levels.

So as an example you can do a gorgeous mill circle in L3 but without the kip and squat on L4 will be a disaster.

 

[raenndrops]

Oh! Raendrops I wasn't even thinking mandatory move ups - I meant more like requiring people to compete levels 1,2 and 3 so using xcel before compulsory wouldn't be as practical.

But L4 is the first required level per USAG. We don't compete L1 or L2 in my area. We start with L3.
And Bronze is designed for gymnasts with skills comparable to L1-L3, so it makes sense to allow gymnasts to compete that instead.
My YG never did get that df Mill Circle after 3 years of Old L4/ New L3. She was also not ready for L4, so she went to Xcel Gold.

I think that instead of requiring L1-L3, it might be better to adjust the minimum ages for Xcel.
L1 @ 4
L2 @ 5
L3 @ 6
L4-L7 @ 7
Xcel Bronze @ 7 (currently, it is 5)
L8 @ 8
Xcel Silver @ 8 (currently, it is 6)
L9 @ 9
Xcel Gold @ 9 (currently, it is 7)
L10 @ 10
Xcel Platinum @ 10 (currently, it is 8)
Xcel Diamond @11 (currently, it is 9)

Adjusting the Xcel minimum ages upward would give gyms the option of having them compete lower level compulsories or training for the higher levels without competing… By the time they were old enough to compete Bronze, they could compete L4 instead (or score out and train or compete L5). The beauty of this is that with previous JO experience, the Xcel divisions are limited
Bronze … from L1 or L2
Silver … from L2 or L3
Gold … from L3, L4, L5, or L6 (I'm sorry, once you are in JO Optionals, you shouldn't compete Xcel unless you are "backing off" on training … and from L6, Platinum would be a more appropriate lateral move)
Platinum … from L4, L5, L6, L7, or L8 (Again, if you competed L8, then the lateral move would be Diamond … L7 "A's and B's" but with flipping vaults allowed)
Diamond … from L7, L8 or L9

 

[cadybearsmommy]

We are in Region 8 as well but don't see this a lot in our state, b/c Xcel and regular season pretty much run concurrently. However it is very common for gyms to compete Xcel instead of compulsories all together around here (with score out meets of course). So Xcel is very competitive in our state. Our gym is one that doesn't do compulsories, usually girls go from gold to Level 6. They are one of many that are taking this route. Is it fair? Well it's hard to say. My dd is silver and only trains 6.5 hours a week, that's pretty standard for Xcel. Could she have done compulsories? Sure, she's a hard worker, and has some natural ability. But I worry her progress would have slowed or stalled all together and she might have got frustrated and wanted to give up. For instance, she has most L4 skills and some L5/L6 skills right now, but still no kip. (she's very close.) The rest of her L4 skills were solid enough last summer that she was able to score out of L4 without a kip. But ff she were competing a season of compulsories she might very well be having to do 3 years at L3 b/c of this. Instead she will likely compete gold next year, and if that kip takes another year to come? No big deal. The flexibility keeps her in the sport and she loves getting to add her own flair to her routines. After gold she will have the chance to go to L6 if she chooses.

As far as move up scores, I would be in favor of them only if they were really high. (like 37.5-38.) I say that b/c we have competed with a team that held back the majority of their girls that were scoring high 37's and 38's, and they are doing L6 skills perfectly in their silver routines. so it wasn't that they didn't have the skills. They've been pretty much unbeatable all year long of course, but at the expense of a lot of negativity everywhere they go parents are talking about them in the stands (not me personally but I've heard it at every meet we've been to with them), etc. I feel bad for the girls b/c they could probably be very successful optionals if they weren't being held back. I would even be ok with the rule that some states have that if they are scoring above a certain score, that they MAY repeat but their scores don't count for the team score. That seems reasonable to me. A girl that really needed to repeat could, but it wouldn't benefit the team, so I think it would cut down on the sandbagging behavior. But it is what it is, nothing anyone can do until they decide to change the rules.

 

[twinmomma]

I like the 38 idea… like I said, ours were way too low. But there are still areas in which a 38 is rare to unheard of… but the girls STILL dominate with lower scores. Their coaches could then use the "well, you didn't MANDATE" argument to keep the gymnast down (those gyms that sandbag are the ones i am referring to).

We are in an area where 38's are VERY hard to come by, if not next to impossible unless you're competing girls a full level or two behind their skill set. Xcel is not generally used around here to avoid compulsories, which is really what all this talk gets at. "We don't want to deal with the ticky tack scoring in compulsories so we'll do Xcel until optionals." I see some huge issues here. One is that kids who are truly "Xcel track" get left behind by kids who SHOULD be in the JO track. The second is, instead of gaming the system, why not look at making changes to the compulsory system of scoring? USAG needs to get on it and mandate maximum hours for both Xcel and JO. I'm not sure why we think 10 year olds in the gym for 20 hours a week is good for their growing systems anyway. I love the idea of choose Xcel or JO at the beginning of the year and commit, but that only solves the sandbagging it doesn't equalize the playing field, which really is what's warranted.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Early States is in the same season and calendar year as it is in Feb, not Dec (or before).

I can only speak to Region 6.

From their newletter,

Xcel Regional Championship Eligibility
In the spirit of good sportsmanship, fairness to all athletes and competitive balance an athlete is not eligible to participate in the Regional Championships they have competed in the JO state or Regional Championships in the same competitive year.

A gymnast could do both states (JO and Xcel), but they would not qualify for Regionals even if they scored a 40, if they did a JO State.

Again its a rule. So be it.

However I still wouldn't say that keeps a "competitive balance" given how differently Xcel is used.

But it will never be fair as in all athletes trained equal. But that is true for pretty all sports.

I believe Raenndrops is talking about this, from USAG Rules and Policies:

A gymnast may compete in a maximum of two (2) State meets per competitive year (one per season), either at the
same or higher division.

An COMPETITIVE YEAR is defined as the period from August 1 through July 31.

A COMPETITIVE SEASON is defined as that period from the first designated qualifying competition through the
culminating Championships at each division.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

I'm sure the scoring may be part of it, but I don't think that's the main reason gyms use Xcel instead of compulsories. There are gymnasts out there who have the capacity to do well in optionals but struggle in compulsories or even get frustrated with compulsories and quit. Some of them may want to stay Xcel only but some might have the capacity to do well and thrive in optionals. I don't think there is necessarily just the super talented JO track gymnast that does great in compulsories and then great in optionals and then the Xcel track gymnast who does gymnastics for fun. There are also gymnasts in the middle. I think if they made compulsories a bit less stringent that you might see less of using Xcel to bypass compulsories. Although, are they really bypassing them since they do have to score out of them?? For instance if they kept the routines the same, as far as the dance and all but allowed some substitutions on the skills, which they already do with some skills (like in L5 you can do the BWO or BHS), they might see more girls choose to stay on the compulsory track. But some gymnasts just need a little more flexibility, it's not all about scoring.

 

[gymgal]

FL is region 8. Most of Region 8 uses Excel very differently than the stated purpose of lower hours/keep girls in. Most girls doing Xcel in Region 8 are doing comparable hours to JO or even more hours as they are being fast tracked. It is what it is. As someone else said, there are a lot of posts about it.

I'm definitely not an expert on Xcel or JO, but I don't think that this is necessarily true in NC. I know there are some strong gyms that compete Xcel and then score out of 4&5 and go right to optionals in NC, but I don't think it is a majority. And looking at the recent Xcel state meet results in NC, I looked at the top scorers and I think a large majority are from gyms that do not use Xcel that way. They are from gyms that do have very high scoring JO girls also, but I don't think there is much crossover between the teams. I do think it is likely they do a lot of hours though just knowing the reputations of the gyms.

There are no gyms in R8 that I am aware of that use xcel to fast track girls to upper optionals and elite. There are many gyms in R8 that do use xcel as an alternative to compulsory and move their girls to optionals after gold or platinum, depending on whether they compete L6 at that gym. Some of these gyms "fast track" their girls through the xcel program, much like some gyms skip levels in the compulsory program. NC does have more of these gyms using this alternative due the state's original set up of the prep-op program before xcel emerged but a quick look at the state meets for the various programs shows that the majority (and certainly the best gyms in the region) still only use the compulsory track to train their girls for optionals.


In regards to the OP and related posts, none of gymnastics is fair. Top gyms often hold their girls back on pre-team until they are capable of scoring 37s at the entry level to give them an edge. During this time, they are training several levels above their current level and could compete successfully 1-2 levels above. They often train more hours, which may not be much at the beginning but over the course of 10+ years, you are talking about 1000's of hours. This compared to gyms that allow their gymnasts to compete as they get new skills and are not as concerned about scores. I used to be really bothered by the discrepancies and wanted to "fix" it. But throughout the years, you begin to realize it doesn't matter. Your dd is in the sport because she loves it. It is not about the medals. It is about the skill development and the relationships in the gym. Competition will never be fair. There will always be a gym that redshirts, trains more hours, uses questionable training techniques. There will always be judges who are more partial than others to particular gyms, body shapes, ages, etc. There will always be gymnasts who have more talent, put in more hours, get more turns in during practice, obtain skills more easily. You get my point....

 

[Deleted member 18037]

^^^^yes to all that

 

[gymgal]

Xcel is not generally used around here to avoid compulsories, which is really what all this talk gets at. "We don't want to deal with the ticky tack scoring in compulsories so we'll do Xcel until optionals." I see some huge issues here. One is that kids who are truly "Xcel track" get left behind by kids who SHOULD be in the JO track. The second is, instead of gaming the system, why not look at making changes to the compulsory system of scoring? USAG needs to get on it and mandate maximum hours for both Xcel and JO. I'm not sure why we think 10 year olds in the gym for 20 hours a week is good for their growing systems anyway. I love the idea of choose Xcel or JO at the beginning of the year and commit, but that only solves the sandbagging it doesn't equalize the playing field, which really is what's warranted.

In general, scoring in compulsory is not why gyms choose the xcel path. This was true for old L6, where some gyms competed their girls in Platinum instead because the scoring was ridiculous and because there wasn't much difference between 6/7 so Platinum gave them optional practice. But the gyms that use xcel as an alternate path and compete several levels of xcel instead of compulsory do it because they feel it is a better fit for their gymnasts. The gymnasts stay on team longer because there are more options for skills and routines. They develop their own style in routines sooner. Gymnasts who may not be perfection gymnasts do better in xcel as the routines do not need to be as precise since they are individualized and the judges do not have the script in their head of what the routines are supposed to be like. Form and foundational skills still needs to be there for them to score well. And finally - watching the same routines and listening to the same music over and over again in practice and competition just makes one go crazy! ;-)

I have said for years that the way to solve this xcel/compulsory issue is that USAG should do away with the compulsory routines. Other countries use optional routines from the start successfully. I do not see why they could not do this in JO. The compulsory routines are not why the US produces such great gymnasts. It is the stress on form and foundation, which can be done without compulsory routines. This would eliminate the main reason why gyms choose xcel in the first place. But it will never happen.

Number of hours: I know 20 hrs at 10yr olds sounds crazy but Pretty sure our elites cannot get to the point they get to without 20+ hours by 10 years old. Heck, I am not sure college bound gymnasts could do it. Most gyms have their L7s around 20 hours. From L7 to multi-year L10, you are talking 7+ years. That means 10-11 yrs old for L7. And many gyms have girls in L10 for 6+ years, meaning a lower L7 age. And being in the gym that many hours is not necessarily detrimental to their growing bodies. That depends on the type of training and the level of coaching.