Saw punishment used in coaching for the first time yesterday .....

[Bajanswife]

It was just 10 push-ups -nothing too painful. But it really worked - I was surprised! DD's L4 group was doing bars with a coach that they don't often have, and they were all pretty sloppy. They have a meet on Saturday, so it's crunch time this week. He decided to motivate them with the threat of push-ups.

First, they had a "stick the dismount" contest, and only 2 out of 7 girls had to do push-ups - the others did perfect landings! In the routines they were doing a few minutes before, they were all sloppy and none had stuck a landing.

Then he moved on to each aspect of the routine (FHC, shoot-through & mill circle) and gave each girl a grade, and only grades under 5 had to do push-ups - the girls cleaned up their act pretty quickly! It was a fairly lenient punishment, and you had to do really badly to earn it, but it still acted as a motivator. It's also amazing when you turn anything into a contest how much harder the girls work! These girls are 7 - 9 mostly, and still have issues with hard work and following corrections.

I used to feel funny about using punishment to motivate, but if the punishment isn't harsh or humiliating, I think it be effective. I've always known that contests are great motivators, as was demonstrated yesterday.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

sounds like incentive to me.

 

[Bajanswife]

sounds like incentive to me.

It certainly had that effect. I always think of incentive as being positive e.g. something good happens if you achieve your goal, but I guess it is broader than that and includes avoiding the negative as well.

I guess true punishment would be a lot harder than what I described.

 

[cher062]

Our gym uses various conditioning elements (push ups, Vups sit ups etc) but usually they go with the skill they are working on in some way. Like if they are trying to stick something then they do I think its called jump up. they rock on their back and as they come forward they jump up and land on their feet. usually 10 of them before they continue. The girls know what skill they need to do 10 times already and when they miss they just do them. I don't see it as a punishment but more of a conditioning just like going back to some basics if some skill just isn't getting fixed.

 

[gymjoy]

Incentives and punishments will work when used sparingly, but with integrity. ( Meaning that when the need for a punishment arises it fits the 'crime,' is applied to all, and is seen through to the end.)

 

[coachmolly]

I've used some kinds of incentives to trick a group into conditioning or working on certain skills without complaining, I'm not sure I would call it punishment though. Oftentimes we will play a conditioning "game" and if they are out early on (in something like relay races, simon says, etc.) I will ask them to do some sort of conditioning as they wait for the rest of the group to finish and find a winner. I guess having them conditioning when they get out could be seen as punishment, but the rest of the group is conditioning anyway, they just don't know it . When the winner is determined I'll usually give everyone else one last assignment that the winner gets to skip as their prize.
I think incentives, games, or skill related conditioning assignments are all fine within reason, it's just when there is a humiliation, excessive or unrelated work, or cruel intent involved that I view it as unfair punishment and question its effectiveness.

 

[gymdog]

Don't know if I'd call that punishment. The 7-10 year old level 4 group I was working with earlier this year found this game (pretty similar system) HILARIOUS. Seriously. I don't believe in punitive conditioning but I'm fine with that if they enjoy making a game of it. And I temper my expectations based on ability, so by trying they have the chance to earn no "demerits", if you will. So, I don't really see it as unfair or punitive...just a little game that everyone is playing. What I don't believe in is singling a child out in an obvious way to do conditioning because they can't do a skill (actually not in their ability) or whatnot, combined with yelling and generally punitive feel.

 

[NGL780309]

At DD's gym they have to climb the rope if they don't make any of their attempts at a kip. Funny thing is, DD loves to climb the rope so I don't think it really makes her try any harder.

They also do little contests like on beam they go one at a time on cartwheels. If the person going falls they all get down and do push-ups or something. They love it and try really hard to not fall. DD makes more cartwheels that way than left to her own devices. To me, this is positive and fun. In contrast at DD's old gym the coach would say to the group, "If XXXX lands her BHS on her knees one more time the whole group will run the stairs. So XXX, you'd better do it right unless you want to punish all your teammates." That was not fun and not motivating for anyone.

 

[lilgymmie7]

Don't know if I'd call that punishment. The 7-10 year old level 4 group I was working with earlier this year found this game (pretty similar system) HILARIOUS. Seriously. I don't believe in punitive conditioning but I'm fine with that if they enjoy making a game of it. And I temper my expectations based on ability, so by trying they have the chance to earn no "demerits", if you will. So, I don't really see it as unfair or punitive...just a little game that everyone is playing. What I don't believe in is singling a child out in an obvious way to do conditioning because they can't do a skill (actually not in their ability) or whatnot, combined with yelling and generally punitive feel.

I have to say also that as a teacher, I have fallen prey to "mass" punishments and it doesn't always work. If the majority of the class is talking then the entire class has to have a silent lunch. The quiet ones are minimal, and I feel so bad when they have to follow suit with their more talkative classmates. I always stress the classroom as a community of learners. I however sense 'mutiny on the bounty' may be short coming. The quiet ones are getting 'sick and tired' so to speak. I have to find a better means to quiet my charge.
Bringing this belief into the gym- Little DD told me that if at a meet a girl doesn't stick her dismount than they have certain added 'extra' conditioning that next Tuesday after the meet. At DD's second meet, six girls did not stick their dismount. That resulted in six times the added conditioning. I don't really know how I feel about that. However, it has made me focus on what I do in my class with my students collectively.
Today, I was faced with this situation. I know a lot of buzz is heard about a child's self-esteem and how their self-esteem is impacted. There really is a fine line between doing what is needed to reach a desired effect and overstepping boundaries and negatively impacting the self-esteem of the children in our charge. I think many of our young fall prey to this and their teachers and/or coaches are at the helm. My DD felt very much to blame when she didn't stick her landing at that meet. She negated to realize that five others did as well. I'm sure that DD's feelings were felt five times over by the other girls. I do believe coach could emphasize the importance of sticking a landing where no ones esteem suffers.

 

[GymnastJoy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This just doesn't sit well with me. Now I'm neither a former gymnast nor coach, so there may be reasons I'm unaware. My assumption is that of course all gymnasts want to stick their landing in a meet. That's why they are there, to do their best routine possible. To penalize them for a mistake (nobody's perfect) and to highlight it to the rest of their teammates just seems wrong. Even if names aren't used, they are all watching the routines and may remember who did not stick the landing. And as you pointed out, the girl definitely knows. It just seems a lot of unnecessary pressure to put on a kid.

 

[gymdog]

I have to say also that as a teacher, I have fallen prey to "mass" punishments and it doesn't always work. If the majority of the class is talking then the entire class has to have a silent lunch. The quiet ones are minimal, and I feel so bad when they have to follow suit with their more talkative classmates. I always stress the classroom as a community of learners. I however sense 'mutiny on the bounty' may be short coming. The quiet ones are getting 'sick and tired' so to speak. I have to find a better means to quiet my charge.
Bringing this belief into the gym- Little DD told me that if at a meet a girl doesn't stick her dismount than they have certain added 'extra' conditioning that next Tuesday after the meet. At DD's second meet, six girls did not stick their dismount. That resulted in six times the added conditioning. I don't really know how I feel about that. However, it has made me focus on what I do in my class with my students collectively.
Today, I was faced with this situation. I know a lot of buzz is heard about a child's self-esteem and how their self-esteem is impacted. There really is a fine line between doing what is needed to reach a desired effect and overstepping boundaries and negatively impacting the self-esteem of the children in our charge. I think many of our young fall prey to this and their teachers and/or coaches are at the helm. My DD felt very much to blame when she didn't stick her landing at that meet. She negated to realize that five others did as well. I'm sure that DD's feelings were felt five times over by the other girls. I do believe coach could emphasize the importance of sticking a landing where no ones esteem suffers.

My problem is, and this is what I mean by singling kids out, is that kids are very perceptive and they learn a lot from our interactions, which carries out to their interactions. When you have a problem child (or several) it is VERY difficult...but I also try to realize that the other children pick up on this and their perception of how to react is "loaded" by mine, so to speak.

Sometimes it will happen where there is one or two children who are consistently "ruining it." And this in turn causes their teammates or classmates, who should in some ways be a "safe haven" of support, to become frustrated and negative towards them. This sets them up for continual negative expectations and interactions, which becomes their role. And it's hard to get out of.

But it can be so hard. I can empathize. Sometimes you don't know what to do. I tend to isolate kids from the situation and then have them earn back privileges, and praise good behavior. I think it's always important to set it up so that they can earn their way back so to speak.

In other words here's a blog post I saw recently:
Littlest Learners / Clutter-Free Classroom Blog: Best. Thing. Ever.

I love that even if a child makes a not-so-good choice, she can rally and move back up. As a helpful hint, I usually try to "clip up" my friends who have a tendency to "clip down" early in the day so that they have a bit of wiggle room.

But, no one is perfect. I had a situation in a preschool class where I had a child who continually failed to meet appropriate expectations. I knew her behavior needed to be modified in order to participate positively in the class. So, I resorted to my ultimate at that age - you need to sit down over here until you can participate properly. This kind of failed due (partly due to inconsistencies from a parent), so I didn't know how to feel, but I didn't regret it. I was dreading the next class. But I decided I need to try and be more positive at the beginning and vowed to find some way she could have success early one. So she did pretty well in the warm up. I praise effusively. I make sure to emphasize that this is the expectation and by making this choice, she is meeting it. She ended up doing really well the rest of class. So it might have been combined with the previous class but both tacks are important.

But, not all of that is relevant to say, not sticking a beam dismount, which isn't exactly poor behavior.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

At our gym the contests are the best way to get the girls motivated to work on form! On bars they get to do whatever they want on bars at the end of the rotation if they do all the requirements during bar rotation with good form! Like 10 strait arm kips and 10 casts to horizontal as so on. It really makes them work hard so that they can "play" for a couple of minutes!!

 

[CreateMagic]

I'm going to agree that the OP's example wasn't so much punishment as motivation-- although if used regularly, could become punishment and work against them. It works in that case, I think, because it was a skill that the coach KNEW the kids could perform confidently, consistently, and safely, and it seemed to be presented in a "fun" way, with reasonable "consequences." Also, it was a change, and kids tend to respond well when you can take something that may have become boring and mix-it-up a bit.

I have to say also that as a teacher, I have fallen prey to "mass" punishments and it doesn't always work. If the majority of the class is talking then the entire class has to have a silent lunch. The quiet ones are minimal, and I feel so bad when they have to follow suit with their more talkative classmates. I always stress the classroom as a community of learners. I however sense 'mutiny on the bounty' may be short coming. The quiet ones are getting 'sick and tired' so to speak. I have to find a better means to quiet my charge.
Bringing this belief into the gym- Little DD told me that if at a meet a girl doesn't stick her dismount than they have certain added 'extra' conditioning that next Tuesday after the meet. At DD's second meet, six girls did not stick their dismount. That resulted in six times the added conditioning. I don't really know how I feel about that. However, it has made me focus on what I do in my class with my students collectively.
Today, I was faced with this situation. I know a lot of buzz is heard about a child's self-esteem and how their self-esteem is impacted. There really is a fine line between doing what is needed to reach a desired effect and overstepping boundaries and negatively impacting the self-esteem of the children in our charge. I think many of our young fall prey to this and their teachers and/or coaches are at the helm. My DD felt very much to blame when she didn't stick her landing at that meet. She negated to realize that five others did as well. I'm sure that DD's feelings were felt five times over by the other girls. I do believe coach could emphasize the importance of sticking a landing where no ones esteem suffers.

Like GymnastJoys, I don't like the idea of punishing either a group or the individual for something like the last part of your post. First off, the kids didn't intentionally not stick their dismounts. I'm sure they were giving the best that they could. If it was the situation where, I think it was at bog's gym, where the child thought it was funny to crawl off the floor and then salute from her knees, well, that child should have a punishment. That was intentional, rude, and disrespectful. But to punish children for mistakes, which should be expected as part of the learning process, and occur when children are trying their very hardest, is wrong.

I also wanted to quote you, lilgymmie7, for the first part of your post. I have also found that I feel bad for the kids in my classroom who are constantly punished for the misbehavior of the masses. What I have found helps, at least for me, is to silently take note of the ones doing what is expected, whether it is classwork, behavior, or homework (this is def an issue with seventh-graders!). Then, when I must discipline the class, I quietly excuse those who do not need to be disciplined. If I am holding them back a few minutes for lunch, I walk over to those kids and send them right away. I have one class in which 80% refuse to do homework at times. Because I want the work done for learning purposes, I have that 80% do the work in class for half-credit, and I take the 20% to the back and do a quick, fun, lab with them (I teach science). That also works for some behavior issues too--those not following directions or fooling around must stop the lab/activity immediately, take out their texts and silently read the chapter and answer the questions that follow, while the others may continue with the activity. Letters are sent home to their parents, explaining what happened--I have a basic form letter that I can adjust as necessary--and those students must stay after school to make up the lab in order to get credit. I thing you work with a lower age group, right? Maybe you could recruit the help of another teacher that could take the kids who are behaving to lunch/recess/etc. IDK, just an idea. Good luck!

 

[fishchimes]

I hate games where if someone falls everyone has to do conditioning. They just stress me out. It's okay if the reps are small and ONLY the ones who fall have to do reps. I also think these games should also only be played with skills that the gymnasts have had for a while and not with skills some are just learning.

 

[lilgymmie7]

"I also wanted to quote you, lilgymmie7, for the first part of your post. I have also found that I feel bad for the kids in my classroom who are constantly punished for the misbehavior of the masses. What I have found helps, at least for me, is to silently take note of the ones doing what is expected, whether it is classwork, behavior, or homework (this is def an issue with seventh-graders!). Then, when I must discipline the class, I quietly excuse those who do not need to be disciplined. If I am holding them back a few minutes for lunch, I walk over to those kids and send them right away. I have one class in which 80% refuse to do homework at times. Because I want the work done for learning purposes, I have that 80% do the work in class for half-credit, and I take the 20% to the back and do a quick, fun, lab with them (I teach science). That also works for some behavior issues too--those not following directions or fooling around must stop the lab/activity immediately, take out their texts and silently read the chapter and answer the questions that follow, while the others may continue with the activity. Letters are sent home to their parents, explaining what happened--I have a basic form letter that I can adjust as necessary--and those students must stay after school to make up the lab in order to get credit. I thing you work with a lower age group, right? Maybe you could recruit the help of another teacher that could take the kids who are behaving to lunch/recess/etc. IDK, just an idea. Good luck! " by Createmagic

Unfortunately! JK No, I also teach seventh and eighth grade. I don't have so much problem with missed HW. However the talking needs to be contained. I can certainly use your advice! Thank you!!

 

[CreateMagic]

Unfortunately! JK No, I also teach seventh and eighth grade. I don't have so much problem with missed HW. However the talking needs to be contained. I can certainly use your advice! Thank you!!

For some reason I thought you taught little ones! I hope its of some help then, I can definitely relate to the frustration of groups of chatty teens! And please tell me your secret for getting the kids to do homework. Detentions and calling home doesn't seem to make a difference with many of them.

 

[gymnut1]

I really really dislike any form of punishment that is connected to a performance at a meet. Frankly that stinks. Personally I wouldn't have my child at a gym that did that. Is that common in the US? Why would any child not do their best at a meet. With all those people, friends, family and strangers watching. Why would they embarrass themselves/ fail throught choice. Kids are under enough pressure at meets. IMHO Meets are a time for the coaches to brush off any mishaps, smile, support and encourage the child forwards to the next piece. Whatever has happened. Children are well aware of 'letting the team down' they don't need a punishment as reinforcement. I am not surprised Lilgymmie feels upset. I feel upset for her. Yes it may make her want to stick her dismount next time but not for positive reasons and I would suspect it might up her anxiety level about that dismount.
Sorry Grrrrr.


Incentive etc, extra cond maybe during practice is ok if handled well and used to motivate, correct a skill, condition to improve a skill. There are lots of ways that can work well.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

For some reason I thought you taught little ones! I hope its of some help then, I can definitely relate to the frustration of groups of chatty teens! And please tell me your secret for getting the kids to do homework. Detentions and calling home doesn't seem to make a difference with many of them.

duct tape works really well...oh, never mind...i thought this thread was about fixing things in the gym.

 

[CreateMagic]

duct tape works really well...oh, never mind...i thought this thread was about fixing things in the gym.

Sorry! I get excited when I can talk teaching--particularly with someone who doesn't look at me like I'm nuts for choosing to spend my days with 13-year-olds! Moving along... although duct tape.......

On topic: I'd be curious as to how coaches justify the group punishment tactic. Has it ever actually worked for them? Long term? What's the drop-out or gym-change rate for kids whose coaches use that consistently? How long does it take for it that coach to realize its not helpful? And at 5-7 years old, do the kids really get it, or do they just get that the coach is angry? It CANNOT be good for group morale and team building. Ugh.

 

[lilgymmie7]

Sorry! I get excited when I can talk teaching--particularly with someone who doesn't look at me like I'm nuts for choosing to spend my days with 13-year-olds! Moving along... although duct tape.......

On topic: I'd be curious as to how coaches justify the group punishment tactic. Has it ever actually worked for them? Long term? What's the drop-out or gym-change rate for kids whose coaches use that consistently? How long does it take for it that coach to realize its not helpful? And at 5-7 years old, do the kids really get it, or do they just get that the coach is angry? It CANNOT be good for group morale and team building. Ugh.

Dunno.... Got ya!! Same here. Just passionate about what I do! I am sure you are as well.