Women shoulder and upper back flexibility versus strength

[gracyomalley]

DD 12 (training L8) told me last week that she is really frustrated because she has lost a lot of flexibility in her shoulders and upper back this year and now feels its not only interfering with her front walk over/front layout, but also with her Yurchenko drills, and her bars.

In review, she did 2 years L7 (age 10/11), placing well at state both years in multiple events and all around, then this summer moved gyms because her old coach was closing hers, and discovered a bunch of things she was "behind on", went through puberty (and got really strong), took 2-3 months off to see if she wanted to stay with gym at the new gym, decided she did and came back too late to compete L8. She has also had vestibular issues off and on for a couple of years - competed through them previously but now trying to work around and through for good.

Due to the above, she is not competing at all this year, and has been essentially training drills with the L7 team, then sent off to "work on her list" of up-training goals while everyone runs routines - some coaches literally make her do her old L7 routines (she actually has L8 routines...) rather than working on the stuff her HC gave her. Many of the drills HC wants her trying she simply can't set up by herself or doesn't have room/know how to do herself...I think she's spending a lot of gym time doing strength and conditioning - lots of cast handstands, strap bar giants (front and back) and free hip handstands, (we don't have our new pit bar yet and there's no one to spot her much of the time). She's been trying to do release move drills on her own but struggling....When the other girls do floor routines she's doing "endurance routines" - running during music and a total of 45 backhandsprings for tumbling passes....

I'm not sure if its the imbalance of conditioning skills that is worsening her shoulder and upper back flexibility or just her build/puberty - but her HC said "get a partner to stretch you" - she doesn't know what that should include, and the other girls are running routines. She also doesn't speak up much - so, for instance, the new bars coach doesn't even know that she can giant and was working pirouettes and overshoots before she took time off - and he's noticed her poor shoulder flexibility so has her drilling repeated freehips, etc (NOT to handstand - she's not even sure he realizes she can cast handstand like nobody's business.....much less working anything new...)

Are there any videos anyone is aware of that I could show her of drills/stretches she can work on on her own? She's a very hard worker and now that she's back in the gym really wants to progress - Its sad that there is only one gym within 100 miles that can properly train optional kids - and limited coaches willing to work in such a gym - so its very hard for the kids to get individual attention - plus DD feels like she doesn't deserve it since she opted not to "go for it" this summer and move up/compete L8....I know that in other circumstances a coach would be able to help her much more - and I know her HC would if she had the time. The new coach also, if DD would speak up - but again, with 75ish kids to coach on bars, the odd one who's not competing for ? why? is unlikely to be high on the radar.

She blossoms as soon as she gets any attention - a coach who knew her coached bars last week - and had her back to her freehip to handstands in one practice.....the next practice, back to repeated kips.....

If she's right and the flexibility is becoming a bigger issue (her leg flexibility is fine -got all three splits back after coming back to gym pretty easily, her form is good, other than the upper back on back walkovers, and ? on bars with giants??? not sure - her giants looked good this summer on pit bar - were good on regular bars last year off and on - and her form on strap is excellent - she can go for 10+ times around there with good form front and back) then she really needs this addressed rather than keep working against herself.

 

[sce]

I don't really know much about regaining shoulder flexibility. Sounds like only a small piece of a much bigger puzzle too.

I'm concerned about the lack of communication and overall training plan at her gym. If HC has a plan for her, all coaches should be informed and those training her should follow through properly. Also, if there are drills she should be working, then a coach should be setting them up and spotting her appropriately.

Would a meeting with the head coach be possible?

 

[gymdog]

I don't understand. We have over 150 kids on team, granted some are boys and I don't really know what they do on some of their events past compulsories, but any of the girls I could tell you if they have giants or not or basically what their skills are. Like a million of these kids I don't even work with on a daily basis but could tell you those basic facts. I don't understand at all remotely how a coach can not know the skills of a kid they coach...

 

[gymjunkie]

Once season is over, is the plan for her to be included in the regular workout of the kids in her level? In other words, is the chaos you described above temporary? If so, I would get her some private time with an athletic trainer to work on the flexibility issue (if that's truly the problem).

 

[Jenny]

If she is working by herself then bridges with her feet raised on something like a block or mat about a foot high will help to stretch her shoulders (if she pushes over them) and take the pressure off her back. If she does them on the floor with stiff shoulders she is likely to use her back which is not helpful.

Stiff shoulders limits backwards movements quite a lot so if she doesn't like the feeling of going backwards then having stiff shoulders will only make it worse.

 

[gracyomalley]

Thank you all - and yes, I think its part of a much bigger problem - but part I can help her with.

Interesting that the shoulder issue may be contributing to her issues going backwards - she had beautiful BHS-BHS on beam, BT on beam, and fulls until her time off - but didn't like to do them - hasn't done more than BWO-BHS on high beam, some RO-BT on low beam and a rare ROBHSBT on floor in months. Probably does feel even worse now. Maybe I'll have her see PT - we do have one (compulsory) coach who is a PT also - maybe she can help.

I agree it should be obvious that she has more skills than she's doing - even in warm up drills she's one of only 2 optionals (up to L9) who can do some of the stuff (back-extension roll pops, pirouette drills, stalder presses, etc) consistently. I'm not sure if its because she is working in the L7 group (and most are weak/new level 7s) and the other girl not competing (injury) is very weak on bars - maybe DD just gets clumped in with her?

Since she won't giant on regular bar without a spot yet after her time off - maybe the new coach just assumed she hadn't learned them before/can't do the rest of L7/L8 skills? (She was just getting her giants without spot on regular bar after gym move consistently, after competing without them because her scores were higher without (9s) than with when she competed L7 - but she could do them....and the form was good). And of course, 3 months of no/light workouts did take some time to come back from strength wise...but she's pretty much there.

She is polite to the extreme - in fact she was moved out of the L8/L9 work out group this summer (even before deciding not to compete) because of a couple of mean girls in that group who were pushing her off high beam, calling her names, etc - they say for "fun", but DD would never treat a kid that way, and at her old gym said behavior would have led to the kid who pushed her being sent home immediately, so she had to learn to fight for herself some....when a coach tells her to do something she generally does it without questioning...unless she's scared - then she may still do it but with tears. She herself lost huge amounts of confidence this year - hard to go from being a very strong, winning L7 ready for L8 (at her old gym - which doesn't exist anymore and did have significant holes in training practices - she would have been successful as a L8 this year there (I'd have expected 35s +) but didn't have the depth of training to move on to L9/L10 stuff...) to being stuck with kids who can't cast handstand, doing BWO-BWO on beam, working FHS vaults again, etc....bigger team, less experienced coaches (until this new one) other than the HC who really took a step back to more administrative work to keep the gym going during all these transitions, and its comp season...

How much as a parent of a 12 year old/7th grader do I intervene?

We pay full price for her training, including all team fees (not meet fees as she didn't go, but all the others). She has shown up to literally every single practice since coming back to full time in January - other than the ones when her brothers were competing out of town, and we have done make ups in those situations. She doesn't leave early and she works hard on conditioning, etc - only time she's not working hard is when she's on her own and doesn't know what to do, or when she's with one young beam coach who insists she do L7 routines even after DD expressed to that coach that HC said she's not supposed to do so. The other high schoolish aged coaches are trying to help her and have taken the time to look at the list she and HC worked out - occ. help her set up drills for flipping vaults, etc.

We have met with the HC once in January (that's when DD got her "book of skills to try"), then again DD met with her alone in February to check in, got a few more drills to work and was told to "ask the bars coach to spot her on giants on low bar (DD is 4'9") for now as pit bar is still weeks out". New bars coach is very experienced and presently going back and forth between the girls and boys as HC figures our how to best use him - very intimidating and sees kids weaknesses quickly (he's nice to them, though) so may only be seeing those in DD...she's afraid to just ask. HC is too busy for privates right now and can't spot DD on much - but could be teaching her how to set up drills, etc...

I don't watch practices - only 30 minutes a week waiting for the boys to start...but I do see DD occ at those times and I know what she's gone through to get back to this place, and that she is still a good gymnast...if she wants it, which right now she does...

So, do I put on my pushy mommy hat - ask for another meeting with HC and perhaps for private with new bars coach with my specific input to have her work on the L8 stuff she's supposed to be training (per HC - not per me....). DD is both looking for my help and not wanting me to interfere too much - but she's still only 12 (same age as the kid who doesn't know its wrong to push kids off high beam and whose parents get exactly what the want). Comp. season will be over for the L7s end of March, and for the L8s mid April - so I feel we need a good plan - most of the L7s (if not all) will need to repeat - there are 2 others who were in between L7/L8 last summer - but both of them are doing other sports, made no progress this year, and scoring lower than they did last year - only coming to practice a couple days a week, etc. I don't know what will happen with them - but they aren't ready to work on the stuff DD is ready for...she doesn't have a natural "place" to do - the L8s other than the mean girl are almost all repeat L8s...

I just want the next month to be a time for DD to get the attention she needs to be ready to dive straight into her L8 + stuff once comp season is over - and attitude wise she is ready -

 

[rosettasmom]

I'm certainly no expert, but do you think things will improve once season is over? Perhaps the coaches will be able to focus more on skills and training vs getting the team ready to compete? I would imagine at most gyms, a kid not competing will likely not get as much attention as those who are.

 

[sce]

So, do I put on my pushy mommy hat - ask for another meeting with HC and perhaps for private with new bars coach with my specific input to have her work on the L8 stuff she's supposed to be training (per HC - not per me....). DD is both looking for my help and not wanting me to interfere too much - but she's still only 12 (same age as the kid who doesn't know its wrong to push kids off high beam and whose parents get exactly what the want). Comp. season will be over for the L7s end of March, and for the L8s mid April - so I feel we need a good plan - most of the L7s (if not all) will need to repeat - there are 2 others who were in between L7/L8 last summer - but both of them are doing other sports, made no progress this year, and scoring lower than they did last year - only coming to practice a couple days a week, etc. I don't know what will happen with them - but they aren't ready to work on the stuff DD is ready for...she doesn't have a natural "place" to do - the L8s other than the mean girl are almost all repeat L8s...

I just want the next month to be a time for DD to get the attention she needs to be ready to dive straight into her L8 + stuff once comp season is over - and attitude wise she is ready -

I think you should meet with HC without your dd. Explain her personality, so HC knows she won't be pushy about getting what she needs, as she's too polite. Ask about the possibility of privates with the bar coach, or at least for HC to talk with the bar coach about the plan or your dd. Also, sounds like the beam coach needs to be informed too. Maybe overall, ask how communication works with all these coaches. How do they know the plan for the different gymnasts?

 

[coachmolly]

I would talk to HC again. You don't strike me as the CGM type, and if the coaches see your daughter the same way you do as a hard worker who takes direction well, I don't think they would have a problem with hearing some of your concerns. The HC might be so overwhelmed with other kids that she doesn't have the slightest clue certain other coaches are not giving your daughter the coaching attention she deserves. Just making sure HC knows your daughter is feeling some discrepancy in coaching plans and her desire for all coaches to be on the same page, working towards the same goal.
Maybe HC assumes your daughter is the one relaying all the details of her training plan to the coaches? (Silly for a HC to assume that of a 12 year old)

 

[vagymmomma]

I see several similarities between your DD and mine. First, mine has absolutely horrid shoulder flexibility. Second, she's not one to advocate for herself. Mine's as strong as all get out, but the muscles combined with a lack of shoulder flexibility are becoming more of a challenge with higher level skills (she's competed L9 this season). We just started with a PT who specializes in athletes to see if they can get any improvement. My motivation was not so much to improve her gymnastics as to ensure no long term damage was done performing skills that really are designed for flexible shoulders. One of her coaches does a good job stretching her shoulders at practice -- I would ask if one of her coaches could do the same for yours. It definitely helps on things like BHS-BHS on beam.

12 years is still quite young so I think you should continue to be her advocate. Some of the behavior you described by some of the older girls sounds like borderline bullying to me. That would bother me as much as some of the other challenges you mentioned. If you're discussing training plans with the coaches, I would make sure your daughter is involved. Self advocacy is as important a skill to learn as any in the sport.

 

[gymdog]

So, she doesn't have giants on bars then? She would need to have it on regular bars to be considered having it by any coach. So he is on the right track. It sounds like he wants her to make some specific changes on things and overall progress. That is a different story.

As far as the shoulder flexibility it is hard to say from a message board. I would see a PT if you have concerns.

 

[gracyomalley]

She's had giants on regular bars on and off for 3 years - but didn't compete them as a L7 because her scores were higher without (usually placed in top 5 in bars). She hasn't tried them since taking 3 months off - no pit bar to work back up on and no one to spot her at this time (unless things change). I'm not sure how she can get over the hump of them if she goes months without doing any....I DO understand that it is a gateway skill - and believe me, so does she! I'm fine with her working on fundamentals if that is what she needs to get there - bars were a weakness at her old gym - none of the drills I see on these forums are familiar to her. I think they learned their giants mostly by chucking them....which is not a learning method DD favors! While she is getting there (however the coaches think is best) I'd just like to be sure she isn't "making things worse" by training "on her own" - and I'd like her getting more practice with her freehip to handstand and pirouette - which are skills she has no issues with (I assume the giants have been specifically hard for her to perfect or she wouldn't be doing them off and on for years while progressing nicely on other skills). This confusion is really why I am tempted to talk with the new bars coach/have her do a private - so she understands why he is having her do "old stuff" and how it will help her get where she wants to be.

I will chat with the coach who is a PT today about her shoulders. I will chat with her HC about her overall training plan. The bully situation has been brought up to the HC by numerous families for years - this kid is actually the reason I kept DD at her old gym after my boys started competing at this one 4 years ago....and she hasn't changed a bit. DD knows that she's not the only target of this kid, and also knows there are mean kids out there. This year has been one of her finding her own "intrinsic motivation" - rather than trying to please a coach, win medals, etc. All good life lessons.

 

[gymdog]

If she has no base on bars then the coach is likely making deliberate choices to repeat term her basics. If he lets her do harder skills incorrectly, she'll never be able to change it because she will just compensate for the lack of correct motor patterning by bending her arms,marching, etc. In order to build the correct technique it will take just doing basics.

 

[gracyomalley]

gymdog I totally agree - but I'd love the coach to explain it to her (and I - I'm a bit gun shy with all the coaching changes she's been through). No bent arms, no marching going on....but I think she's muscling through a lot of stuff - and I'm sure there are better ways. really - the kid NEVER did a bent arm kip even - much less free hip or cast handstand, or giant - I was told her overshoot drills were the best on the team last year - and between the three kids I've sat through a lot of meets - I've seen tons of bent arms on bars, things called "giants " that look horrible and unsafe, pirouettes that are really just a fling over the bar, etc. and I don't want her pushed ahead unsafely, but she's not that kind of gymnast - maybe she's the kind that loses her heart and decides to give up, but not the kind that does things with poor form - I guess I am just frustrated because neither she nor I (nor her present HC) can understand why she struggled so much with the giants - but maybe this new (very experienced) coach can pin point it and help her fix it

Really, I get what you are saying...I just want her to get the attention she needs - and I'll be sad if after coming back and trying to work through her issues this winter she gets stuck because the team is too big...

Thank you!

 

[sce]

I guess I am just frustrated because neither she nor I (nor her present HC) can understand why she struggled so much with the giants - but maybe this new (very experienced) coach can pin point it and help her fix it

Really, I get what you are saying...I just want her to get the attention she needs - and I'll be sad if after coming back and trying to work through her issues this winter she gets stuck because the team is too big...

Thank you!

Maybe her issue with giants stems from a shoulder flexibility issue? Could it have been going on for longer than she noticed? It is also possible that she was taught something wrong at the old gym in regards to her technique for giants.