WAG The Future of Elite

[JBS]

Double post here... but also consider the main funnel system... TOPS. TOPS was growing and pumping in around 3,000 testing athletes per year. This year that was cut down to below 50% of that.

Our state had ZERO testing athletes this year... ZERO.

Not only are the kids finding the path high risk... low reward... so are coaches and club owners in general. There were always several very driven coaches that would have 1 or 2 kids ready to put the hammer down in TOPS. Well... not this year... and there are definitely athletes out there that can do it.

Upper level gymnastics coaches are at an all time low. Coaches are leaving the industry like no other time in history.

TOPS / DIC / DC were turning average coaches into superstars. A super talented gymnast will never go elite without extremely knowledgeable coaches. With 50% of the TOPS athletes... you're basically going to have 50% of the coaches involved and getting trained by the process.

 

[gym_dad32608]

Very simple concept... the best teams typically compete well below their actual ability. You see this all the time at Level 4. There are always tons of Level 4 athletes that already have their Level 7 skills. These athletes are typically very confident and have no issues hitting the podium on a regular basis.

If you are an elite and you are competing a Yurchenko double full on vault that lands fairly short most of the time... then you are competing at 100% of your ability. Not only are you competing at 100% of your ability as you can barely pull the vault around... others are competing at only 90% of their ability and doing harder vaults.

There will always be people pushing to 100% of their abilities in gymnastics. This is a terrible place to be in competition and on live surfaces. It causes injuries. 100% of abilities is like "maxing out" in weight training... lot's of failure occurs in this realm. In gymnastics... 100% abilities should only be done in training environments (loose foam... resi pits... while spotted... etc.).

Gotcha. But isnt that the whole point? Not everyone can do elite, and I guess that has been the issue. In a healthy and robust program, those folks that competing a DYF at 100% should be weeded out and not allowed to compete at that level, while the one doing it at 90% should remain. The adults in the room historically have not done their job and have continued to push these girls that probably should not, hence the injuries, mental anguish, etc all while investing their youth and parents $.

 

[GYM0M]

@JBS The crumbling of the developmental programs is a problem. The system under Liukin was phenomenal for training elite coaches. I don’t like elite gymnastics today so I probably shouldn’t say too much else, lol.

 

[LemonLime]

Gymnastics is in transition, but it's too early to know what form of gymnastics - let alone elite gymnastics - will emerge.

The Pandemic and dramatic loss (75%?) of Olympic-level programs can explain the dip in qualified juniors. Verbals among current sophomores and freshmen are a-typical because of the rule changes and collision with the Paris Olympics. Compare those facts with the high number of seniors competitive enough to compete at 2021 Olympic Trials and all-time high number of 2021 hopes qualification attempts. Simone continues to be a major draw bringing new athletes to the sport just like the Magnificent 7.

Developmental camps are new and also provide inconsistent numbers. Modern-day developmental camps started in 2006/2007, but were limited to around 20 athletes per year until 2016. Around 99% of those 20 athletes attended national team camps. When Valeri took over the developmental program, he and Marta had a different approach but they agreed he should run that program in his discretion. Under Valeri's tenure, the number of Dev campers increased significantly and DIC was added. The number of Hopes-qualified athletes, however, decreased.

There are some key indicators, however, to the depth of elite gymnastics. We will have to see how they play out in 2022 and 2023?

First, national elite team has never drawn significantly from Tops A team, although certainly there is crossover. The number of participating Tops athletes and Level 2-6 athletes in a given year, however, is very important to having enough athletes in the pool to fill Olympic Teams ten years later. The geographic distribution of teams is also important.

Second, top-10 NCAA coaches want high-performing Level 10s, but generally pick athletes with an elite background at a 3:1 ratio. This selection criteria will continue to influence choices. Until signing days in 2022 and 2023, it's hard to know how the new rules (delayed verbals and NIL) will impact the selection of athletes.

Third, just like elite, Level 10 and NCAA keep getting harder. Athletes need Es and upgraded vaults to be competitive - especially starting around Jr. E. A group may leave elite if they cannot satisfy a 5.5 SV, but another, larger group may leave JO if they cannot successfully compete Es.

Fourth, there are no elites without elite coaches. The Pandemic depleted the cash reserves of many programs. If current and future elite coaches cannot financially or emotionally commit to a hopes or elite program, the number of elite athletes will drop. Interested coaches need to be supported by NT coaches or their potential will be limited.

Fifth, it's hard to stay in elite from age 14-16. The first year in senior is HARD. Friends quit. Teams become smaller. School gets harder. Gymnastics becomes specialized. Bodies change. Stress increases. I presume those pressures are even harder because of the Pandemic and seismic shifts in the sport.

Sixth, Tom and Dan need to do a great job. They must funnel a strong number of athletes (40 hopes, 30 juniors, 20 seniors) into international experiences. They need to emphasize the correct skills and improve areas with the highest scoring potential (vault) while gaining points in areas with the biggest gap (bars). They need to constantly give new coaches a chance so the pool of coaches and athletes remains static. I don't know if they can afford to do what they need and want to do.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

You’ve also got a bunch of coaches with elite and national team experience who are just flat out getting old now. Our gym has HOPES, had elites, had national team members and individuals go to Olympic trials - but the coach is aging, he had a heart attack over the summer, how much longer is he gonna keep spotting those hard skills? It’s physically taxing

Same with our previous gym. The owners shoulder is shot but the girls learning new releases need him there, and they’re not 50, 60 lbs anymore (and even that starts to wear you down).

If no one younger is training to be an elite coach and many of the elite coaches are grandparents now, it doesn’t matter if kids want to train elite - there’s no one gonna be around to train them

 

[jamieintexas]

You’ve also got a bunch of coaches with elite and national team experience who are just flat out getting old now. Our gym has HOPES, had elites, had national team members and individuals go to Olympic trials - but the coach is aging, he had a heart attack over the summer, how much longer is he gonna keep spotting those hard skills? It’s physically taxing

Same with our previous gym. The owners shoulder is shot but the girls learning new releases need him there, and they’re not 50, 60 lbs anymore (and even that starts to wear you down).

If no one younger is training to be an elite coach and many of the elite coaches are grandparents now, it doesn’t matter if kids want to train elite - there’s no one gonna be around to train them

Add to the fact that coaching is an extremely hard job with bad hours and low pay. My son is following in my footsteps but I hope that he stops. I have never made enough to support a family, if it weren’t for my husband paying the bills, I would have had to stop years ago.

 

[rlm's mom]

Our gym used has had elites in the past but has come under new ownership who don't believe in gymnasts doing extreme hours. They are happy for our coaches to coach gymnasts for the elite path but believe any extremely talented athlete will reach hopes/elite whilst training less hours. No gymnasts at our gym do more than 24hrs a week yet we have/had multiple hopes and elites. Any gymnasts who want to train longer hours find themselves somewhere else to train. I think this is quite revolutionary in this sport and full support it. However we have had less elites than previously.

 

[Jenny]

There will always be people pushing to 100% of their abilities in gymnastics. This is a terrible place to be in competition and on live surfaces. It causes injuries. 100% of abilities is like "maxing out" in weight training... lot's of failure occurs in this realm. In gymnastics... 100% abilities should only be done in training environments (loose foam... resi pits... while spotted... etc.).

How do you explain the horrendous number of ACL etc injuries in college gymnastics then if they are working within their comfort zone? Are they less fit? Because we see more and more all the time.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

How do you explain the horrendous number of ACL etc injuries in college gymnastics then if they are working within their comfort zone? Are they less fit? Because we see more and more all the time.

They’re coming in busted from JO. Auburn has a commit for next year who just tore her ACL in December, needs surgery, she also tore her ACL the previous year. These kids are coming in broken, they worked outside of their comfort zones for years to make sure they got noticed.

 

[lovofu]

Speaking from experience...our family took alot of heat when Sophia decided to stay level 10 and not pursue elite after winning hopes BUT for her that last ankle injury showed her how it could all change in a second and to sacrifice it all and have it gone was daunting. I can say with 100 percent confidence that I have never seen her happier than she is right now doing College gymnastics. She is not the headliner by any means but is playing her part on a team that is doing better than they have in awhile! GO TIGERS!

 

[Mish]

Speaking from experience...our family took alot of heat when Sophia decided to stay level 10 and not pursue elite after winning hopes BUT for her that last ankle injury showed her how it could all change in a second and to sacrifice it all and have it gone was daunting. I can say with 100 percent confidence that I have never seen her happier than she is right now doing College gymnastics. She is not the headliner by any means but is playing her part on a team that is doing better than they have in awhile! GO TIGERS!

She is definitely one of the headliners if you ask me! So consistent and beautiful to watch!

 

[Jenny]

Speaking from experience...our family took alot of heat when Sophia decided to stay level 10 and not pursue elite after winning hopes BUT for her that last ankle injury showed her how it could all change in a second and to sacrifice it all and have it gone was daunting. I can say with 100 percent confidence that I have never seen her happier than she is right now doing College gymnastics. She is not the headliner by any means but is playing her part on a team that is doing better than they have in awhile! GO TIGERS!

she is such a lovely gymnast it's brilliant to see her doing so well.

 

[Jenny]

They’re coming in busted from JO. Auburn has a commit for next year who just tore her ACL in December, needs surgery, she also tore her ACL the previous year. These kids are coming in broken, they worked outside of their comfort zones for years to make sure they got noticed.

That is an interesting theory. So you think that JO rather than elite is to blame. I never thought that JO would push them outside their comfort zone as the skills requirements are much lower than elite fig. Do you think it is poor training, poor peaking of skills, poor technique , poor fitness and conditioning?

 

[JBS]

How do you explain the horrendous number of ACL etc injuries in college gymnastics then if they are working within their comfort zone? Are they less fit? Because we see more and more all the time.

I really can't explain the injuries in college... here is the only list I know of...

Link Removed

Really just throwing out some ideas in my head here now.

I don't know the actual training style of most of the colleges... so it's hard to say.

Are they less fit?... I would say the average college athlete is "more powerful". I would say the average college athlete has "more momentum" than they did in the club world. Also... the average club gymnast does not lift weights... many college programs do... which ones... not sure.

College athletes are also competing more... which means more live landings. Most clubs do not compete every weekend.

Some colleges are also equipped with a full medical staff / recovery modalities (not saying this is a bad thing)... but does the access to this give the athletes the illusion that they can push through more? After all... how's that working for the NFL?

I never thought that JO would push them outside their comfort zone as the skills requirements are much lower than elite fig.

It really just depends on the athletes ability in the first place. An athlete that barely has the potential to run elite will most likely be able to comfortably run Level 10. An average Level 10 will have to try to keep up with them. There are many Level 10's that are truly only Level 9's on 1 or more events. Now with the 10.1 start values... your top Level 10's are all trying to run "E" skills on every event as well as a 10.1 vault (Yurchenko layout 1.5). And now that colleges are Yurchenko layout 1.5 for the 10.0 start... Level 10 gymnasts are really pushing to that more and more.

 

[Gigi]

I think the public's interest on Olympics in general is waning and it trickles down to the athletes. We are a gymnastics family and only followed the last Olympics loosely on social media. I can't see as a parent how the sacrifice of time, money and social life is worth the small chance of making a five person team once every four years.

 

[gym_dad32608]

So I might have said this earlier, but I have a slightly different, maybe unpopular take on elite.

First, not everyone who does elite wants to go to the olympics and while elite does require a slightly higher level of commitment only a few are training at the olympic hopeful level, meaning national team camps, this is my life, etc.

Second, as long as there is competition, there are going to be plenty of gymnasts that are going to want to push themselves to do more and bigger skills. Its human nature, its healthy and in the right environment (ie not feeling forced) there is nothing wrong with that.

Third, and somewhat alluding to @JBS said, the interest in college gymnastics is increasing, and colleges are looking for gymnasts that are comfortable doing E passes, Y1.5 and just solid L10 skills. Doing the elite path provides gymnasts the opportunities to have a solid gymnastics foundation to build these skills, so even if a gymnast doesn't "do elite" they still benefit from the exposure and training of these skills. I honestly believe you can tell the difference between a gymnast who went through a TOPS program and nothing else to one who hasn't. Its not absolute and it doesn't guarantee anything but all things being equal, its a great benefit. While I don't have the effort or desire to look up all college rosters I am willing to wager most rosters (in D1 Top 25) have gymnasts that at least qualified elite or trained in the elite path at some point. And using the powerful N=1 of my experience, the elites that I have been around view it more as a path to college than olympics.

So while interest in the Olympics might be waning, I guess I believe its not a direct correlation to interest in Elite, as there are other motivating factors that drive gymnasts to try elite. And with college gymnastics growing, at least in the south, it might take up the slack from lack of interest in olympics.

 

[GymAir]

That is an interesting theory. So you think that JO rather than elite is to blame. I never thought that JO would push them outside their comfort zone as the skills requirements are much lower than elite fig. Do you think it is poor training, poor peaking of skills, poor technique , poor

I think there’s a lot of pressure to get to L10 as young as possible and then camp out there for several years. The skills may not be as hard as elite, but if they’re above the level you’re at and you’re training 20+ hours a week, then yeah, it’s pretty easy to get beat up. And then if the first injury isn’t managed properly and the athlete isn’t properly paced, it sets up compensations and more problems down the road.

Anecdotally, I screwed up my knee as a D1 athlete in a sport other than gymnastics. I had to compete with my teammates for spots, and if they were adding more weight to their squats, then I was, too - whether I should have been or not. It didn’t work our well for me, which is why I was a student athlete my Freshman year only.

 

[JBS]

First, not everyone who does elite wants to go to the olympics and while elite does require a slightly higher level of commitment only a few are training at the olympic hopeful level, meaning national team camps, this is my life, etc.

I have to say... then why would someone train elite? There is literally nothing in elite gymnastics if you are not on the national team.

Second, as long as there is competition, there are going to be plenty of gymnasts that are going to want to push themselves to do more and bigger skills. Its human nature, its healthy and in the right environment (ie not feeling forced) there is nothing wrong with that.

I agree with this... except... I think it is more coach driven than gymnast.

Doing the elite path provides gymnasts the opportunities to have a solid gymnastics foundation

Pretty much agree with this too. Solid foundation.

The problem is... looking back... as a coach and parent who had a daughter that did TOPs and HOPES and DIC camps... most of it would have been easier to do without TOPs and HOPES.

The camps were super helpful to me as a coach. They also taught my daughter how to try to win every second of every workout and drove her forward hard. I just wonder if this could be done in a different way... and I really don't even think it's the same anymore. By our last camp it was a totally different experience... really not as fun.

So why not just train them properly without TOPs and HOPES? Or is this the driving force that keeps everyone going?

In my opinion... if you are not in the running for the national team... or at least believe you are... there is no reason to be running elite. Now being trained in that style... that's just good practice... but that doesn't require that you try to become an elite.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

That is an interesting theory. So you think that JO rather than elite is to blame. I never thought that JO would push them outside their comfort zone as the skills requirements are much lower than elite fig. Do you think it is poor training, poor peaking of skills, poor technique , poor fitness and conditioning?

My bad - you asked “how do you explain the horrendous injuries in college gymnastics”. I had an overal thought and condensed it; many of the top recruits that aren’t coming in from elite, did elite or hopes and dropped back to level 10. They’re coming into college busted, it’s not them getting injured from college gymnastics, they were just already barely hanging on

 

[Canadian Gym Mom]

Just curious what other peoples thoughts are on the future of elite here in the USA. I feel like the allure of being an elite gymnast is starting to fade with the current generation. So many of the up and comers for 2024 and 2028 have decided the elite route is not for them and gone back to level 10 and changed their focus from worlds/olympics to NCAA. I don't foresee the US having the huge depth that they used to. Maybe a core group of 10-15 who are continuing down the path versus the 50+ we used to see.

This conversation is really interesting! I am also curious about people's thoughts about this subject in Canada. I don't see many young gymnasts going the national route since Covid arrived. The Aspire program, comparable to TOPS in the US, is for age groups that were not able to train consistently for 2 years. I wonder if they will revise the age requirements or simply skip "that generation". Either way, because of Covid, I think the new generation of elite gymnasts will peek at a later age and I am curious to see how that pans out.