Parents Thinking of switching gyms - advice please :)

[Deleted member 18037]

There are also states that do 2 seasons a year and the Fall season is COMPULSORIES only… Spring is OPTIONALS. Some gyms have their girls compete Compulsories in the Fall and if they aren't up to JO L6 yet, they can compete Xcel in the spring FOR FUN… and at the same time, they can work on training their new skills for their next JO Level. .

This what our gym does. We do JO in Fall, an optional program in Spring, in the past it was Xcel, now it is IGC.

Our coaches like the compulsories they feel it is a great foundation for learning skills, form, shapes. And they like optionals because the girls have fun, get their own routines even as 7 yr olds. So they start to find what they like and are good at, who does cute, who does drama, who does elegant. And they coaches feel this then prepares them for optionals as they are already used to optionals and custom routines.

This summer our girls will learn the L5 routines. Score out head to L6 and they already have most of their routines done from their IGC season, so they will mostly be tweaking/adding skills. They have been working their optional routines since Jan. So it won't be score out and boom learn all new individual routines. Much lower stress as the kids start optionals because they are already used to it.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I can't speak for all gyms that don't compete compulsories but our gym doesn't train JO hours for Xcel bronze, silver and gold. Our bronze and silver train 6-6.5 hours and our gold trains 9 hrs plus one hour of dance. That's probably even on the lower end of what some train for Xcel only programs around here. They do learn the JO routines for score outs, during the summer only and only if optionals is a path they are interested in. It's one of the reasons I like it so much, no committing to the higher more intense training hours until later on. Even then we are on the low side, our L6's train 13 hours total, one of those hours being dance only. I think our Platinums train about 11 hours. I'm sure there are gyms out there who are training 15-20 hours for Xcel, but they aren't all like that.

But again the assumption is JO does more and they don't always. Your gold trains about that same as our 3/4 group and platinum trains one hour less then our L5-L9.
We are a low hour gym so no our JO kids don't have an advantage over a high hour XCel gym.

And the amount of hours are always going to vary, again no matter the level/division. All that takes is in a search here on hours to see how wide the ranges are.

 

[gymgal]

Which programs tend to score better in international meets?

well, certainly the US does well on the international scene but I don't think that is because the girls went through compulsory levels. Many of them fast track through the compulsory program. The US has such a large base of gymnasts to pull from, which helps. Having the girls start going to the ranch and getting specialized training/monitoring is what appears to have brought the US team to the next level.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

But again the assumption is JO does more and they don't always. Your gold trains about that same as our 3/4 group and platinum trains one hour less then our L5-L9.
We are a low hour gym so no our JO kids don't have an advantage over a high hour XCel gym.

And the amount of hours are always going to vary, again no matter the level/division. All that takes is in a search here on hours to see how wide the ranges are.

That's for sure! I remember being blown away at how wide the ranges are on practice hours. I should have said I think our hours are on the lower end for our immediate area. At our old gym dd was in the L3 training group doing 12plus hours for a while. Now she won't see those kind of hours again until platinum or optionals.

But it's so much based on quality vs quantity too. There are gyms who can get great results with less hours just bc they utilize every last second. Your gym sounds like that. Ours is like that too. You could train many more hours and see less results if there is a lot of standing around and doing nothing.

 

[gymgal]

There are no compositional deductions/errors in compulsories. The last couple cycles of compulsories had a specified number of steps into stumbling passes, but those were removed in the current cycle, so no more deductions for extras steps.

Let me preface this by saying I am not being snarky. I really want to know because it is not making sense to me. They are being judged only on the major skill elements? the splits, tumbling, balance,and jumps? And none (except the up to .3) on the all the hands up/down, the half turns, all in the order they are meant to be? So a gymnast could make up her own arm/hand movements or keep her arms down for all the dance movements throughout the routine and only be deducted up to .3 for that, as long as her form was good throughout the elements? I just watched some level 4 routines. On the floor routine, before the bhs pass, there is a dance sequence. So, the gymnast could just back into the corner, salute and do the pass or even make up her own little dance sequence without deduction? And for the split, the gymnast could just go into the split without all the arm movements and not get deducted? If this is the case then why have the reset routines in the first place? Is this a sign that they are moving closer to just having a set of requirements but individual routines?

 

[wandrewsjr]

Let me preface this by saying I am not being snarky. I really want to know because it is not making sense to me. They are being judged only on the major skill elements? the splits, tumbling, balance,and jumps? And none (except the up to .3) on the all the hands up/down, the half turns, all in the order they are meant to be? So a gymnast could make up her own arm/hand movements or keep her arms down for all the dance movements throughout the routine and only be deducted up to .3 for that, as long as her form was good throughout the elements? I just watched some level 4 routines. On the floor routine, before the bhs pass, there is a dance sequence. So, the gymnast could just back into the corner, salute and do the pass or even make up her own little dance sequence without deduction? And for the split, the gymnast could just go into the split without all the arm movements and not get deducted? If this is the case then why have the reset routines in the first place? Is this a sign that they are moving closer to just having a set of requirements but individual routines?

For the arm positions throughout the routine, yes only the up to 0.4(just double checked this, never seen more than 0.3 taken, so wasn't citing the correct number!) would apply. There is also the artistry deduction of up to 0.3, and if a gymnast where just walking through all the dance positions with her arms down by her side like a robot, most judges would take some off there. There is also a flat 0.1 deduction for changing or omitting a small part, but to get that a gymnast would have to change something fairly substantially, like do a coupe half turn when the text says pivot turn. Most of what you described all falls under the up to 0.4. Truly the vast majority of deductions are taken on the execution of major elements. No gymnast ever got a 7 just because she wasn't performing the routine exactly according to the text.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Interesting the focus is whether or not a program is turning out college gymnasts. Is that really our goal here? Or is it that sport is to be used as a vehicle to create kids who are good citizens, resilient, and learn some fitness and life lessons along the way.

That said, we seem to keep saying the problem is with how Xcel is or isn't being used, but maybe Xcel isn't the problem. Maybe the problem is what the JO compulsory levels have turned in to. I watched a kid on our team do a very solid floor routine at a meet (L4), with NO major errors, pull a 7.85 score. Blew everyone away. Now, were there little details that needed addressing? Of course, but how beneficial is it when a kid cannot even tell you where their errors were because they were so slight ends up last behind kids who fell on back handsprings or whatever. While I understand JO is designed to be tough, it seems that in some areas, it's designed to beat these kids down to see if they can handle it, forgetting that they are 7,8 years old. In no other sport is such absolute perfection the only acceptable option. Xcel gives kids who are talented a fighting chance at success, while still learning the resilience that comes with getting back up when you fall, literally and figuratively.

Rather than attacking Xcel and how gyms are using it to bypass compulsories, maybe we need to focus more on WHY gyms would rather bypass compulsories, and I don't believe the answer is just that the scoring is easier. I think USAG may need to look at compulsories and make some changes as well.

*Edited to add that the coach discussed the routine with the judges who told her that all the "errors" were text errors/details that added up, no major issues. Things like, oh her foot was slightly turned in instead of turned out.

Ok, I think you're finally understanding it better. Compulsories in JO have so many deductions that the untrained eye just can't see or know. Yes, a girl can fall on her butt and score higher than one who appeared better and didn't fall. Because I've seen perfect routines executed before and after a fall, so the only deduction is the fall (.5); while another routine will be loose, or have foot position problems, slightly bent knees on every skill, splits that don't meet the required angle; height, dynamics, artistry, etc. Many of those things are not allowed to be judged in Xcel. Compulsories in JO are harder, and are judged harder. Those little details you mentioned add up quickly. The JO program is tailored to focus on every little hand movement, everything, while Xcel is not. The JO program produces athletes that can continue on to elite and be globally competitive, that's why they focus on perfection. It's not designed to beat kids down to see if they can handle it. Xcel is designed to be less stringent in its requirements. There's so much more to both programs (that's why the compulsory book is 194 pages long) than anyone could ever explain here in a few posts.

 

[raenndrops]

while another routine will be loose, or have foot position problems, slightly bent knees on every skill, splits that don't meet the required angle; height, dynamics, artistry, etc. Many of those things are not allowed to be judged in Xcel. Compulsories in JO are harder, and are judged harder. The JO program is tailored to focus on every little hand movement, everything, while Xcel is not. The JO program produces athletes that can continue on to elite and be globally competitive, that's why they focus on perfection.

Foot position problems are JO Compulsory only. Pointed toes and straight legs and meeting required split angles and dynamics apply to JO compulsories and Optionals AND Xcel. Xcel does not have COMPOSITIONAL deductions - like for uncharacteristic skills (that specific one goes into effect in August).

 

[gymdog]

Let me preface this by saying I am not being snarky. I really want to know because it is not making sense to me. They are being judged only on the major skill elements? the splits, tumbling, balance,and jumps? And none (except the up to .3) on the all the hands up/down, the half turns, all in the order they are meant to be? So a gymnast could make up her own arm/hand movements or keep her arms down for all the dance movements throughout the routine and only be deducted up to .3 for that, as long as her form was good throughout the elements? I just watched some level 4 routines. On the floor routine, before the bhs pass, there is a dance sequence. So, the gymnast could just back into the corner, salute and do the pass or even make up her own little dance sequence without deduction? And for the split, the gymnast could just go into the split without all the arm movements and not get deducted? If this is the case then why have the reset routines in the first place? Is this a sign that they are moving closer to just having a set of requirements but individual routines?

Pretty much. The major deductions come off the major elements. Im going to be harsh here and say that a lot of people complain on here that their child was "tenthed to death" when in reality there are major errors in the routine, they just naively assume because their child didn't fall down or omit something, that's a small error. If your child is getting deducted 2 tenths on every element, they are doing skills that are essential to progress in gymnastics wrong. If you do the major elements cleanly but dance is not really correct, then you will still score very well. The dance has to be pretty off to pull a significant text error. It's not the difference of a hand being up or down at all. That's what some people want to believe but it isn't reality.

Still, teach the text correctly. It's just easier that way. Most of the times the errors that pull a text deduction are pretty blatant. One that comes to mind is turning the wrong way into the double stag after prone position. They should continue the turn in the same direction so it's pretty obvious when they don't. Still happens. Even so that accounts for maybe a tenth or two of the score.

Kids who score low in compulsories are messy. They usually have posture deductions on every major element, bent arms and legs, feet, amplitude. All of these things have to be fixed eventually, that's just the way it is. I've never seen a clean routine score a 7.8. Not since the early 90s anyway. Will you score higher in Xcel? Sure, you don't have to do as many skills in the routine or can choose easier ones (example: using a tuck jump in the leap pass rather than a sissone and single leg hop).

 

[gymbeam]

What gym dog said.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

What gym dog said.

Yep

 

[3rd_time_around]

Foot position problems are JO Compulsory only. Pointed toes and straight legs and meeting required split angles and dynamics apply to JO compulsories and Optionals AND Xcel. Xcel does not have COMPOSITIONAL deductions - like for uncharacteristic skills (that specific one goes into effect in August).

Re-read it again. There are A LOT of things that cannot be deducted in Xcel that MUST be deducted in JO. I was giving examples of all kinds of deductions, then emphasized that many of those things that are deducted in JO are not allowed to be deducted in Xcel. It's what it is. I can't deduct for angle of repulsion in Xcel on vault, but I must for JO in the prescribed levels (and AAU). That's just 1 of many examples. Too many to write about, you can read the books online if you want to compare everything. It really is a much less rigorous division of gymnastics when it comes to requirements and deductions. The training may be amazing and comparable to JO, but the requirements and deductions are where it's so different. That's not debatable, that's fact.

 

[duyetanh]

Dang...has this thread been hijacked ot what....

 

[LindyHopper]

Dang...has this thread been hijacked ot what....

Multiple times

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Quite a hike, you never know how the path will end up.

 

[ePink]

I had no idea my first post would be so popular!!

I have read through everything and I know so much more about gymnastics. I'm sure my DD and I still have so much to learn.

 

[gymgal]

Dang...has this thread been hijacked ot what....

Not really. The OP's question was answered and the thread evolved from there but it is still talking about the main premise of the OP's question - different competition streams. I view a hijacked post as when the thread goes a in complete unrelated path, like if the thread was about JO/xcel and someone posted about hijacking and others began a discussion around that... oops... It has now been officially hijacked.

 

[OzZee]

To answer the question in the national program Australia has compulsory floor routines 1-6, though 6 there is a choice of optional or compulsory.
Used to be optional from 4 (but kids compete from 1 here).
Elite program it's compulsory right through (not sure about latest changes though).

My opinion is xcel is meant like our old state stream - for kids wanting lower hours , less intense programs. But clubs always abused it and the kids winning were often national level gymnasts using it as an extra competiton/something they could win/practice comp.
Not fair on the kids who have no chance of placing who are training half the hours.

 

[auswi]

To answer the question in the national program Australia has compulsory floor routines 1-6, though 6 there is a choice of optional or compulsory.
Used to be optional from 4 (but kids compete from 1 here).
Elite program it's compulsory right through (not sure about latest changes though).

Elite program in Aussie has just been tweeked, the draft is out now.
So compulsory until IL 9 with higher difficulty required at the lower compulsory levels, then juniors optional. The aim seems to be to achieve more multiple year sub- seniors ( juniors.)

The effect won't be seen until a few years down the track.

 

[GymAuntie]

You do know that gyms are businesses correct? Absent some sort of toxic influence either on the part of the kid or the parents, a talented kid who left and realized that the gym they left is where they want to be would not be turned away. Everyone knows everyone in this small gymnastics community and it's common for kids to switch and switch back and 99% of the time it's no big deal. Even coaches and owners realize a kid may not know at 6 what they want and if at 8 they've changed their mind and are still solid in their skills, it's not in their best interest as a business or as a member of the gymnastics community locally to turn him or her away.

It seems like you like to come here, make big statements, then get mad when people point to flaws in your arguments. That isn't really the spirit of things here. We all might have different opinions, but we tend to allow others opinions to exist without taking them as attacks. I've spent a lot of time around multiple sports as well, and gymnastics is it's own animal. A few months/years with a young child in this sport does not give you the full picture of how things work.

Everything I posted here is strictly SUBJECTIVE AND A POSSIBILITY! I don't know why people don't get that. I said xyz COULD happen not that it WILL.

The perspective from which I posted is completely my opinion on one possible outcome of moving the child of the OP. It is by no means gospel. Any my assumption that gyms don't like to take back kids who quit on them has come from THIS FORUM! How many threads are there on here saying that gym is a small community and gym hopping is bad and by moving you're potentially burning a bridge? I've seen plenty.

I don't mind being challenged, but it's how I'm challenged. To say my scenarios or opinions have no merit is condescending and dismissive, and I have no time for that. What that person basically said to me is that my opinions were out of bounds and unfounded and I should never have posted them so yes I'm going to go on the attack. My opinions and scenarios about could be's are just as valid as her's. Just because mine aren't all sunshine and roses does not make them any less substantial, and perhaps the OP needs to hear the thorns and burned brush possibilities as well as the sunshine and lollipops ones. No one bothered to do that so I put it out there. And again I didn't say it would happen. I said it COULD. Big difference there.

You all talk about dealing in facts, but there's no way to go with facts here. Everything is situational and something that may or may not happen. She may be welcomed back to the big time gym later if she decides to or she may not. None of us know, and the OP may never even try. So what does it matter if we all tell her different things? One of us is going to be right, but there's no way of knowing who. However based upon intensive reading here my opinion that the coach could say "no way" is not beyond the realm of possibility.

As for opinions about Xcel, it very much depends on what region you're in as to how it's treated. Region 1 (California) is not very fond of it, and it's looked upon as a step sister to JO. However in Region 8 it's very competitive. The main thing is that Xcel in most places does not train as many hours and may not focus on technique as much as JO. And college coaches do not look at it as an equal to JO. Perhaps it's because it's still in its infancy or perhaps it's because
not every state treats it the same. We moved from an Xcel only gym that practiced 9 hours per week max (in Region 8 no less) to a gym where L3 practices that same 9 hours. So you tell me there's not a difference between the two. The Xcel gym is very competitive at state even at the Platinum level, but could those girls have the same success in JO? Not with 9 hours a week no!

Bottom line is everything is situational and everyone's situations are different. There is no way any of us can no what repricussions might come from moving a child. The OP asked for opinions about why it might be good or bad. She made her decision so why on God's earth is this still being discussed (i.e. argued about) months later?