TO COMPETE OR NOT COMPETE... missing skills

[Pineapple_Lump]

At my previous gym, girls were expected to have all the core skills for the level they wanted to compete to even consider moving up. We also expected them to have several bonus skills and to add more bonus skills through the season.

This sounds a little like sandbagging, but when that philosophy runs through the gym, your athletes are well prepared for each new level because of the work done in the previous level. The expectation was very clear, as coaches we knew where they needed to in order to advance and made sure it happened. Kids did have to repeat sometimes, but they still worked the skills, and because a leader instead of a middle of the pack gymnast.

My current gym, everyone seems to move up with the exception of those who are extremely far behind (the ones who in my opinion had no business in their current level). I try to keep my gymnasts working 1-2 levels ahead so that when the move they will be prepared with the skills needed.

Bars would be a deal breaker for me, if you don't have good bar skills you can't move up. I look at some of the girls struggling with bars at their level, they are going to struggle more next year as they have not mastered the basic skills of the current level, which comes from the fact that they did not have the skills when they started the level.

 

[mariposa]

Bookworm, I whole heartedly disagree.

Yesterday J competed L5. Placed 2nd on vault, 2nd on beam and 3rd floor. Yup, no kip in sight. She would be bored to tears by L4. I think it has to be a kid by kid basis. Half her L5 team is not competing/scratching certain events. She knows her bars are bad and until that comes, no AA.

EmacMommy: Off topic but something I wanted to add. As far as keeping kids engaged with more meets, I think its a fine balance. Right now in NV her L5 team has 14 (14!) meets scheduled. The new HC posed this question? With a fall and spring season with states after the spring season, when do I focus on skills with these kids. Something to think about when extending the season.

My daughter had all her level 5 skills (though some weren't pretty) last year when she was 7, she even had really pretty kips. She repeated level 4 and wasn't bored at all. Her gym kept her very challenged learning level 5/6/7 skills and drills for advanced skills. She got to compete at a level she was proficient in everything at and still train other skills. She is the kind of kid that gets bored easily, but gymnastics is sometimes boring and it was a good thing for her to learn to really focus on form and the little details. Her reward at gym was always getting to do bigger skills and that was plenty of motivation. And I think it taught her that the little things count BIG in gymnastics. Her form improved and I know that her routines this year will looks much prettier overall than they would have if she had done level 5 last year. Presentation is something that must be learned, too, much better to learn it at the lower levels when judging isn't as tough, then try to learn it when they take off for everything!

 

[Aussie_coach]

I also disagree that a child should be bored if they repeat a level. It would not be the fact that they have to repeat a level that would make them bored it would be the coach.

Repeating a level should not mean doing the same thing again they did the previous year. The only thing that would be the same would be the competition routines. A lot less time would need to be spent on competition routines the second time around and a lot more time could be spent on the more advanced stuff.

In many cases this would actually cause the gymnasts to progress twice as fast if they repeat a level.

For example take a level 4 who repeats level 4, they spend a minimal amount of time on routines as they have competed them for so long and the rest of their time on skill development. But if the same child moved to level 5, the routines and skills would take up 90% of their training time with very little left for skill development.

In Australia most gyms expect a very high standard before competing that level.

A level 4 here would be expected to have fully mastered all their level 4 skills and routines and be competing those, but also expected to have mastered all the level 5 skills and be busy perfecting them for the next comp[ season and would be working on level 6 skills. It's not sandbagging here, its the way it is expected to be done.

 

[nevertooold]

The issue with moving kids who are not ready or with moving kids mid-year is that you then have the pleasure of having the SAME conversation with the SAME family next year. If you don't have your kip until mid season this year, chances are you won't have your kip cast to 3/4, free hip to 3/4 by the beginning of the following season.

If an athlete needs to repeat, do it early on so the child can get on top of the curve and not spend their entire gymnastics "career" playing catch up.

I really disagree with allowing the child to train and not compete. Team is team, and competing for YOUR TEAM is part of the process. There are ways to do gymnastics without competing, it's called classes. Certainly exceptions exist in upper levels or individual children, but for the most part I feel like you signed up to be part of a team and should participate wherever the coach assigns you.

All of this though is assuming the program itself isn't broken, that other children ARE getting all their skills and moving up. I'm assuming the child is being provided reasonable opportunities to learn the skills needed to advance.

And finally... I feel like it's a real insult to the sport when a parent says their child is bored or will be bored if they repeat. Assuming the other children in the group are NOT bored, it really makes it sound like the bored child just doesn't really like gymnastics as much as they thought they would, it's a real red flag to me. I would advise parents to use that word cautiously. Gymnastics IS boring. Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, conditioning, more boring stuff, and then BAM EUREKA I did a KIP!! The kids who don't like the boring part, well.....

 

[ek2]

The issue with moving kids who are not ready or with moving kids mid-year is that you then have the pleasure of having the SAME conversation with the SAME family next year. If you don't have your kip until mid season this year, chances are you won't have your kip cast to 3/4, free hip to 3/4 by the beginning of the following season.

If an athlete needs to repeat, do it early on so the child can get on top of the curve and not spend their entire gymnastics "career" playing catch up.

I really disagree with allowing the child to train and not compete. Team is team, and competing for YOUR TEAM is part of the process. There are ways to do gymnastics without competing, it's called classes. Certainly exceptions exist in upper levels or individual children, but for the most part I feel like you signed up to be part of a team and should participate wherever the coach assigns you.

All of this though is assuming the program itself isn't broken, that other children ARE getting all their skills and moving up. I'm assuming the child is being provided reasonable opportunities to learn the skills needed to advance.

And finally... I feel like it's a real insult to the sport when a parent says their child is bored or will be bored if they repeat. Assuming the other children in the group are NOT bored, it really makes it sound like the bored child just doesn't really like gymnastics as much as they thought they would, it's a real red flag to me. I would advise parents to use that word cautiously. Gymnastics IS boring. Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, conditioning, more boring stuff, and then BAM EUREKA I did a KIP!! The kids who don't like the boring part, well.....

I could not agree with you more!
My dd has a friend at another gym who had fabulous level 4 and 5 skills, but was not yet proficient doing her kips. So, she repeated level 4 (her parents were fine with that). She ended up scoring 37-38 AA for the season. Her coaches continued working with her on her kip (she got it mid-season). So after the level 4 season she did a few invitationals at level 5 scored pretty well and is now competing level 6 and doing great winning or placing top 3 every meet. All this in the space of one year. However, had her coaches pushed her to compete without having all her skills, she may not have had time to learn them correctly, and without good form it is hard to advance to the next level and do well.

 

[LizzieLac]

The issue with moving kids who are not ready or with moving kids mid-year is that you then have the pleasure of having the SAME conversation with the SAME family next year. If you don't have your kip until mid season this year, chances are you won't have your kip cast to 3/4, free hip to 3/4 by the beginning of the following season.

If an athlete needs to repeat, do it early on so the child can get on top of the curve and not spend their entire gymnastics "career" playing catch up.

I really disagree with allowing the child to train and not compete. Team is team, and competing for YOUR TEAM is part of the process. There are ways to do gymnastics without competing, it's called classes. Certainly exceptions exist in upper levels or individual children, but for the most part I feel like you signed up to be part of a team and should participate wherever the coach assigns you.

All of this though is assuming the program itself isn't broken, that other children ARE getting all their skills and moving up. I'm assuming the child is being provided reasonable opportunities to learn the skills needed to advance.

And finally... I feel like it's a real insult to the sport when a parent says their child is bored or will be bored if they repeat. Assuming the other children in the group are NOT bored, it really makes it sound like the bored child just doesn't really like gymnastics as much as they thought they would, it's a real red flag to me. I would advise parents to use that word cautiously. Gymnastics IS boring. Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, conditioning, more boring stuff, and then BAM EUREKA I did a KIP!! The kids who don't like the boring part, well.....

Well said!

 

[gymjourneymom]

The issue with moving kids who are not ready or with moving kids mid-year is that you then have the pleasure of having the SAME conversation with the SAME family next year. If you don't have your kip until mid season this year, chances are you won't have your kip cast to 3/4, free hip to 3/4 by the beginning of the following season.

If an athlete needs to repeat, do it early on so the child can get on top of the curve and not spend their entire gymnastics "career" playing catch up.

I really disagree with allowing the child to train and not compete. Team is team, and competing for YOUR TEAM is part of the process. There are ways to do gymnastics without competing, it's called classes. Certainly exceptions exist in upper levels or individual children, but for the most part I feel like you signed up to be part of a team and should participate wherever the coach assigns you.

All of this though is assuming the program itself isn't broken, that other children ARE getting all their skills and moving up. I'm assuming the child is being provided reasonable opportunities to learn the skills needed to advance.

And finally... I feel like it's a real insult to the sport when a parent says their child is bored or will be bored if they repeat. Assuming the other children in the group are NOT bored, it really makes it sound like the bored child just doesn't really like gymnastics as much as they thought they would, it's a real red flag to me. I would advise parents to use that word cautiously. Gymnastics IS boring. Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, conditioning, more boring stuff, and then BAM EUREKA I did a KIP!! The kids who don't like the boring part, well.....

I LOVE this post!!! So much wisdom here!!!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts so clearly & well stated for all to understand. I also don't get the whole "she'll be bored" statements??? If a child loves the sport they will love everthing about it. The ups & the downs. And will want to do their best to do skills WELL. Until a skill is executed with excellent form & polish there is ALWAYS something work on with it. To say "she'll get it eventually" or "she has it good enough" & just keep moving her along is doing the child a disservous. That line of thinking just isn't going to cut it in the upper levels. These young ones need to learn the gymnastics training is boring to a certain extent. Better for them to pace themselves young & learn the basics with PROPER form & polish or they will be playing "catch up" later. It will be hard to undo things that have been let go for so long & they may just never get it. I think they are being set up for frustration & failure by being pushed along before they are ready. I think it's all very sad to watch. Can't we just let these little ones ENJOY the sport at a normal pace? Let them develop confidence in themselves. And let them feel what having confidence is like for a while, without constantly pushing them to the point of frustration? JMHO.

I do think there is the RARE child that is really ready to move along at an accelerated rate. Picking up skills seemly effortlessly, ALONG with form & polish. But this type of chilld is FEW & far between. Those young ones are a pleasure to behold. But I think there many that don't really fit into that category that are "wanna be's". Not necessarily by their own doing but by their parents or coaches doing. Parents and or coaches PUSHING young ones ahead who clearly are not ready to move on. Why??? Who are the parents/coaches trying to impress??? What IS the rush??? I just feel bad for the kids...they are being set up for disappointment down the line. Why move them up to level where there will feel pressure & frustration by missing an event? Let them compete at a level they can do with CONFIDENCE. Then you will see them REALLY blossom & learn to LOVE the sport! JMHO.

 

[bookworm]

I really disagree with allowing the child to train and not compete. Team is team, and competing for YOUR TEAM is part of the process. There are ways to do gymnastics without competing, it's called classes. Certainly exceptions exist in upper levels or individual children, but for the most part I feel like you signed up to be part of a team and should participate wherever the coach assigns you.

All of this though is assuming the program itself isn't broken, that other children ARE getting all their skills and moving up. I'm assuming the child is being provided reasonable opportunities to learn the skills needed to advance.

.....

Totally agree with this...if the parent doesn't want them to compete as part of the team for whatever reason, then enroll them in the classes. If the parent knew that they couldn't BE on the team if they did not compete as directed, then maybe the push to move kids up without the requirements would cease.

In our gym, the parent of kid without the requirements would never even ASK to be moved up because they know it will not happen. We have to try out to even be considered for team. And our girls also have a move up meet where you have to get a certain AA score to move up..doing only 3 events as some have suggested would keep you at the level because you have to have an AA score to move up.

 

[gymcoach34]

That sounds so stressful!! Kids should not move up if they dont have their skills. I also agree with nevertooold.... if you are moving these kids up without essentail skills like a kip-they will never catch up. I would rather keep the kids at the level thay can compete successfully- but work on other skills., form, basics, etc. EVENTUALLY, they will have to slow down and catch up on bars- so why not when they are young?-even if they are a little bored? (Practicing math facts is boring, but its important and the kids deal with it.)

I do little meets or verifications throughout the summer- the kids know the dates ahead of time. They need to show progress of their skills, or they know they are not even close to moving up. We have a final verification at the end of the summer- and the kids KNOW if they are prepared or not. I meet w families of the kids that take lots of vacation and explain to them that most likely their child will not move up BEFORE the summer if I can. I also have meetings w parents in May (which takes so much time but so worth it!) to talk about summer training and what next year looks like for their DD. It takes a lot of work, but I have found trying to be a proactive as possible make sthings a little easier????

Also, do you have to give them the choice of not competing?? That to me is not a choice-if you are on a competitive team, you compete!! I think I would have some parent meetings asap, tell the parents the plan (they will be competing L5) and give them the L5 meet form to sign up on-they must do a certain # of meets to stay on the team. If they are on the team, they compete, anf HOPEFULLY you have some support from the owner. I fear if things continue on the same path, your team will be in shambles soon. You might lose a few, which will stink, but the whole atmosphere of your team is at stake with the parents/kids being allowed to make decisions they are making. Good luck & keep us posted.

 

[bookworm]

Also, do you have to give them the choice of not competing?? That to me is not a choice-if you are on a competitive team, you compete!! I think I would have some parent meetings asap, tell the parents the plan (they will be competing L5) and give them the L5 meet form to sign up on-they must do a certain # of meets to stay on the team. If they are on the team, they compete, anf HOPEFULLY you have some support from the owner. I fear if things continue on the same path, your team will be in shambles soon. You might lose a few, which will stink, but the whole atmosphere of your team is at stake with the parents/kids being allowed to make decisions they are making. Good luck & keep us posted.

totally agree with the above...I think you're right about the future of the team if it continues this way...all the progress made will be for naught..

 

[emacmommy]

Okay. I'm sold on my own decisions. I will discuss the concerns about picking/choosing meets with the rest of our staff/director/owner.

Now how do I go about selling my gymnast/parent in general. Lets look at the two individually. The L4 gymmie is a Type A personality and I know in school is a high achiever. With the school system when you master something she tackles the next thing to move on. She is coachable in the gym, not disrespectful to us at all. Thrives on input from us, but she does have a lot of fundamental, strength and posture issues to address. If anybody followed a Posture Issues post during the summer, this is the gymnast in question. While she is trying, there really hasn't been a lot of significant progress in this department. Her mom is on board with us, but her mom is who the gymmie keeps voicing her opinions to and she has been heated with her mom about it. Enough the mom shares it with our director.

The L5 gymmie is a long distance commuter. I've had individual discussions with both gymmie and parent thinking I had them on board with how the policy sits, what she's missing, how long I feel it's going to take to get there, etc. Strongly advising she compete the Level she is capable at through to when she has the needed skills to move. She was on vacation most of the summer and admittedly she knows this set her back significantly. These families know my opinion about competing and how important it is for an athlete's development.

As for making a set in stone policy to compete all meets, I'm not sure how well it will fly. Our parents know the opinion of "mandatory-optional" (that was a term my college coach used about August practices at school) to compete, however, I actually want squads to compete. In this area weather and job schedules is a huge thing. We are a mining/oil rigging community with rotating shifts up the wazzoogle. 80% of my gymmies compete in all competitions. The others usually only miss one or two throughout the season. I just feel we won't have parents commit to a season that shows no flexibility. Weather is also an issue with some families. Snow and ice that I may be comfortable enough to travel in, others don't see the same risk-reward factor and will opt out. Finances are another issue. With the exception of our home meets, which we host four per year since we have the largest facility space-wise in the state, we travel minimum of 2hrs and up to 6 hrs one way. Since weather is an issue, many families choose to go up the night before if they are morning session. This just gets expensive and some opt out of these long reaching meets.

 

[gymcoach34]

I agree there should be some flexibility- why dont you come up w a # of mandatory meets that is doable for your team and anyone that cant do it needs to discuss w you. I still think you will have a lot of dissention form the people who are committed and making the effort to attend all the meets.

Even if its an uncomfortable discussion, I have found its much better to discuss these issues w parents...if the parents/gymnasts have been able to pick/choose their meets based on what level they want to compete its going to be much harder and you will probably need to make baby steps of change over time.

 

[bookworm]

Maybe you could have a basic mandatory meet schedule without a ton of meets...

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

My daughters gym does both it is basically up to the head coach. I have seen it both ways my daughter repeated level4 and did great in level 5 (she uptrained and was fine). I have also seen girls move up and scratch bars the first couple of meets then do fine. It really seems to work out both ways but like I said the HC judges where they are skillwise. I do not think anyone in our gym would ask to be moved up before they are ready and I do not think they would do it to appease the parents. I think by giving into parental demands you would lose alot of respect and it would not be good for your program.

 

[emacmommy]

Okay. We haven't had any meeting with parents yet... I'm irked right now. My L5, L6 wanna be, turned in to us over the weekend a sign up sheet to compete L6 in a meet Oct 23.

"breathe-relax-calm", "Remember my people skills..."

SHE'S NOT READY!!!! No safe RO BHS Back Tuck in sight!!!! Never done it by herself, refuses to compete L5 this season.

Someone help me come up with a reasonalbe analogy that they will understand, besides she doesn't have the skill (this should be the obvious reason). SAFETY! This isn't like a kip on bars that if you don't make it you fall safe. OR if you try the kip and it looks like a kip you get credit and then take a fall. This is a potentially neck breaking RO BHS Tuck at the end of a dead tired floor routine! Hello! BTW she's not a whip the flip around first timer... she's a straight up no rotation first timer. Nail biting! We are working on it, but there is no rushing to fix this habit, and quite honestly it starts with her RO BHS.

Yes, we are sticking to our guns, and the other team staff member and gym director are on board, but obviously we aren't getting through to this gymnast/parent.

What can I compare it to, other sports or life situation, in an analogy?

BTW, I do like this gymnast and family, if I sound a little peeved. She's a good person with good intentions that I think are just out of alignment with how the sport operates.

 

[Ingwe]

I have to say that I am stunned that these parents would have the nerve to just refuse to compete L5 and then "sign up" for an L6 meet. I am sitting here trying to picture the look on our Gym owners face if I even attempted to do that. LOL!!

I am sure these people are nice but at some point common sense has to prevail. I would flat out tell them that in no way shape or form is their DD ready to compete L6. She does not have the skills and therefore she will not be allowed to compete.

I am sorry that you are having to deal with this, it all seems so crazy. Good luck with your meeting and I really hope that these people finally come to understand why their DD has not been moved up.

 

[LizzieLac]

SHE'S NOT READY!!!! No safe RO BHS Back Tuck in sight!!!! Never done it by herself, refuses to compete L5 this season.

Can you have her do a mock competion at practice or something, so that if she can't perform these skills coaches are there to protect her/pervent her from getting hurt? If the parents see she can't do these skills in a presentation environment, maybe they will back off.

 

[bookworm]

Okay. We haven't had any meeting with parents yet... I'm irked right now. My L5, L6 wanna be, turned in to us over the weekend a sign up sheet to compete L6 in a meet Oct 23.

"breathe-relax-calm", "Remember my people skills..."

SHE'S NOT READY!!!! No safe RO BHS Back Tuck in sight!!!! Never done it by herself, refuses to compete L5 this season.

Someone help me come up with a reasonalbe analogy that they will understand, besides she doesn't have the skill (this should be the obvious reason). SAFETY! This isn't like a kip on bars that if you don't make it you fall safe. OR if you try the kip and it looks like a kip you get credit and then take a fall. This is a potentially neck breaking RO BHS Tuck at the end of a dead tired floor routine! Hello! BTW she's not a whip the flip around first timer... she's a straight up no rotation first timer. Nail biting! We are working on it, but there is no rushing to fix this habit, and quite honestly it starts with her RO BHS.

Yes, we are sticking to our guns, and the other team staff member and gym director are on board, but obviously we aren't getting through to this gymnast/parent.

What can I compare it to, other sports or life situation, in an analogy?

BTW, I do like this gymnast and family, if I sound a little peeved. She's a good person with good intentions that I think are just out of alignment with how the sport operates.

For starters , how did she get the Level 6 sign up sheet to begin with? I would start regulating that more closely...i.e. you will sign up for meets in your level as directed by the coach ...I wouldn't make it a free for all.

Second and most important point, there would be no debate or reasoning with her or the parents ...from a SAFETY and LIABILITY standpoint you have to stand your ground so that she doesn't get hurt and just tell them that Level 6 is not an option in this gym at this point in time for her, from a safety standpoint, you will compete 5 until you are safe to move up, period, end of discussion....if they leave ,let them because this is only the beginning of the manipulation to come.

And third, you do not need to compare it to anything except maybe to say I wouldn't let you jump off the Golden Gate Bridge because it's not safe so I'm not letting you compete as a 6 either.

Your professional integrity is on the line here because if you let this family bully you into this and she gets hurt , it's YOU who are going to have to answer to "why did you let her compete like that if you knew she was unsafe?"

 

[bogwoppit]

THere is just no way this would happen in our gym. The girls are told at the end of Sept what level they will compete, they pay the entry fees and that's it. The only option they have is to not show up for the meets they have paid for.

No way would the kid be going anywhere a L6 meet without the skills.

 

[Gymdad2]

Bookworm said it best, IMHO. You and/or owner are just going to have to tell them that she is not ready to compete L6, and it is your (and only your) decision about when she can SAFELY do the L6 skills. And if they don't like it, then so long, see you around. You cannot and must not let a parent make this decision for you. Good Luck!

By the way, did she ever get the qualifying score for L6 at a sanctioned meet?