Women Up-to-level versus atypical skills

[Texasmomof3]

My dd will be competing level 8 this year after two years of injuries. Due to the injuries, her skills are not the typical ones you see at level 8 from her gym. But I’m wondering if atypical always means not up to level.

On beam, she cannot do a back handspring. She doesn’t have the shoulder flexibility. So her series is a front walkover-backtuck, while all the others on her team do a bhs-bhs.

On floor, she has a twisting issue. So while her whole team has fulls, she has a front and a back half, but no full. She does some cool stuff on floor the others don’t, on the leaps and dance, but she simply can’t get the twisting. She gets lost, especially going backwards.

Her whole team does yurchenkos. She does a tsuk. It gets lots of height — the first time she tried to flip it she laid it out. But the coach is not happy that she never could get the yurchenko down and she feels like her vault is lesser.

On bars, she’s the only one not doing a double back dismount.

Are these all up to level deductions or just optional differences that everyone sees?

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

No, atypical can be as hard or even harder than the normal skills. Now for up to level deductions we should know all her skills, otherwise I can't be sure. Vault does not get up to level deductions and is the same value as the yurchenko

 

[LJL07]

My dd will be competing level 8 this year after two years of injuries. Due to the injuries, her skills are not the typical ones you see at level 8 from her gym. But I’m wondering if atypical always means not up to level.

On beam, she cannot do a back handspring. She doesn’t have the shoulder flexibility. So her series is a front walkover-backtuck, while all the others on her team do a bhs-bhs.

On floor, she has a twisting issue. So while her whole team has fulls, she has a front and a back half, but no full. She does some cool stuff on floor the others don’t, on the leaps and dance, but she simply can’t get the twisting. She gets lost, especially going backwards.

Her whole team does yurchenkos. She does a tsuk. It gets lots of height — the first time she tried to flip it she laid it out. But the coach is not happy that she never could get the yurchenko down and she feels like her vault is lesser.

On bars, she’s the only one not doing a double back dismount.

Are these all up to level deductions or just optional differences that everyone sees?

I am so glad you asked this. We have a similar issue with my level 8 daughter. She was out due to health issues/injury type situation. She has an unusual series too. Walkover back tuck. She also has to do a gainer dismount again due to some issues with her foot while everyone else it doing round off to layout. I’m worried she won’t be up to level too. And same with vault. She has a really nice tsuk but is trying to get the yurchenko back. We just don’t think she can safely compete it in time. Mine is also doing the layout flyaway for now too off bars. Good luck to your daughter, and I’m going to be following this to see what feedback you get.

 

[Texasmomof3]

On beam, she does a basic A mount, full turn, switch quarter, the fwo-bt series, a ro-lo dismount and another A jump.

On floor, she does a 1.5 turn, a fhs-fhalf, a flo-fpike and a ro-bhs-bhalf. She does a switch leap that she lands in full split on the ground and a straddle quarter turn in series with another 180 jump of some kind.

 

[LJL07]

On beam, she does a basic A mount, full turn, switch quarter, the fwo-bt series, a ro-lo dismount and another A jump.

On floor, she does a 1.5 turn, a fhs-fhalf, a flo-fpike and a ro-bhs-bhalf. She does a switch leap that she lands in full split on the ground and a straddle quarter turn in series with another 180 jump of some kind.

Ok, I *think* that is definitely up to level. It is hard to connect the fwo to the back tuck on beam so that is actually pretty difficult if I’m not mistaken. My daughter has the same front passes. She does have a back full, but I’m pretty sure a half does fulfill the requirement. I hope others chime in.

 

[Texasmomof3]

She says the bt is so much easier than the bhs that it feels like cheating to do it instead. She also does a switch leap-bt connection, but she can’t do that at 8, since she can’t do two back tucks.

She’s really freaked out about the twisting. Two years ago and had front and back fulls and was training 1.5. Now she can barely land a half.

 

[LJL07]

She says the bt is so much easier than the bhs that it feels like cheating to do it instead. She also does a switch leap-bt connection, but she can’t do that at 8, since she can’t do two back tucks.

She’s really freaked out about the twisting. Two years ago and had front and back fulls and was training 1.5. Now she can barely land a half.

That’s funny because my daughter also says the back tuck feels much easier than doing a bhs. Is it due to the injuries that she has trouble with twisting?

 

[3rd_time_around]

My dd will be competing level 8 this year after two years of injuries. Due to the injuries, her skills are not the typical ones you see at level 8 from her gym. But I’m wondering if atypical always means not up to level.

On beam, she cannot do a back handspring. She doesn’t have the shoulder flexibility. So her series is a front walkover-backtuck, while all the others on her team do a bhs-bhs.

On floor, she has a twisting issue. So while her whole team has fulls, she has a front and a back half, but no full. She does some cool stuff on floor the others don’t, on the leaps and dance, but she simply can’t get the twisting. She gets lost, especially going backwards.

Her whole team does yurchenkos. She does a tsuk. It gets lots of height — the first time she tried to flip it she laid it out. But the coach is not happy that she never could get the yurchenko down and she feels like her vault is lesser.

On bars, she’s the only one not doing a double back dismount.

Are these all up to level deductions or just optional differences that everyone sees?

Just a quick note: Tsuks are awesome. They are more difficult to do well, and they are not what everyone else is doing. They are not lesser vaults. Her coach needs to understand that a 10.0 vault is a 10.0 vault. And believe me, when someone does a vault other than a Yurchenko, it is refreshing and does not get penalized. That's just silly to think it would get penalized. My dd could never do a Yurchenko. She tried for a year and got a stress fracture in her arm. She switched back to the Tsuk and was getting good scores. So GO TSUK!! Tell your dd, that the Tsuk LO used to be worth 10.1 until people complained about it, then it was downgraded to a 10.0.

 

[Texasmomof3]

Thanks for saying that. She likes the tsuk and is pretty good at it. But both gyms she has been at as an optional want to switch her to the yurchenko. But she just can’t get it. And she’s so exhausted with not getting things.

 

[Texasmomof3]

The twisting issues started after the injuries, but i don’t know if it is directly related. She developed multiple stress fractures in both legs, above and below the knees, and ended up missing almost two full competition seasons. She did one meet each at level 7 and 8 the last two years, but missed months at a time and was never near 100%. When the legs were finally healed, she sprained her ankle really badly and then peeled off the high bar, landed on her head and sprained her neck.

She is finally training again normally and has so many old skills she simply can’t do anymore. Sometimes the list of what was lost feels longer than the list of what she does.

She wants it all back, but she really just wants a safe and clean competition season this year.

 

[CoachAlex]

Tsuks and Yurchenkos are worth the same - usually girls who cannot create enough power from a tsuk entry will yurchenko.

Assuming she is clean, atypical is NOT always a bad thing - her beam series for example is on paper more difficult than a BHS BHS and most gymnasts find front tumbling on beam to be harder.

Someone else mentioned their 8 doing a BWO+back tuck on beam - one of our 8s did this last year - the judges LOVED it because it was different.

On floor a layout 1/2 and a layout 1/1 are both a ‘B’ value. Front tumbling is often valued higher (a front 1/1 is a ‘C’), so if your daughter can front tumble well then no, she wont get up to the level deductions. Those deductions also include dance - the level of dance and acro have to match, so if you are doing all B/C tumbling but only A dance skills then that would be a deduction.

I would imagine that if performed well, the judges probably enjoy seeing atypical skills - its optional gymnastics, but sometimes coaches get stuck in a very boring optional-compulsory skill set.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Tusks are harder than yurchenkos. In the FIG (international Elite) code of points al, tsukahara vaults are 2 more in start value than their yurchenko equivalent. USAG have downgraded it to be the same value as yurchenkocsmin level 8-10 to encourage more urchenkos because most female gymnasts can't develop enough power to. The Tsuk to develop really high scoring vaults.

 

[LJL07]

Tusks are harder than yurchenkos. In the FIG (international Elite) code of points al, tsukahara vaults are 2 more in start value than their yurchenko equivalent. USAG have downgraded it to be the same value as yurchenkocsmin level 8-10 to encourage more urchenkos because most female gymnasts can't develop enough power to. The Tsuk to develop really high scoring vaults.

This is so interesting. Why is it that the yurchenko is considered the “harder” or “better” vault? I would imagine doing a layout tsuk or twisting from a tsuk would be super hard. Is it just easier to build off the yurchenko so it’s now assumed it’s the “better” vault to do?

 

[LJL07]

The twisting issues started after the injuries, but i don’t know if it is directly related. She developed multiple stress fractures in both legs, above and below the knees, and ended up missing almost two full competition seasons. She did one meet each at level 7 and 8 the last two years, but missed months at a time and was never near 100%. When the legs were finally healed, she sprained her ankle really badly and then peeled off the high bar, landed on her head and sprained her neck.

She is finally training again normally and has so many old skills she simply can’t do anymore. Sometimes the list of what was lost feels longer than the list of what she does.

She wants it all back, but she really just wants a safe and clean competition season this year.

Ugh. That sounds very rough. Good for her for not giving up. My daughter was out a long time too and has had to reset some of her expectations.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

In the scheme of all things. She is doing level 8. Let it be. Up to level, aclower start value. It doesn’t matter. She just meed# to do the best she can

 

[gymgal]

From the hateful and ugly things I've read today about her and to her on social media, I reiterate my opinion that I expressed with the last appointment, that there are some people out there who will never be happy until they destroy USAG. Mary Bono is allowed to express her opinions just like everyone else can and has. There is some really, really nasty stuff being said about her and to her. They are allowed to use "freedom of speech" to do that, but won't let her exercise hers. I understand that Nike is a sponsor, but maybe they are too controversial and shouldn't be sponsors? Maybe it's time for them to go. They pololarized a lot of people when they released this ill-thought-out campaign. So how about people just let her get past 24 hours of being appointed and see how she does before totally annihilating her and her character?

I'm a little disappointed in Simone's tweet. I personally find it a little disrespectful. She should have addressed the issue personally instead of on Twitter. She is the reigning queen of gymnastics, so I'm sure she could have had a one-on-one conversation with her. And if you want to blast me about her freedom of speech, or Nike's freedom to use whomever they want in their ads, etc., the same freedoms apply to everyone. Just because people don't agree with her opinion doesn't make it wrong. I'm just really tired of this circus. Let the woman do the job, then judge her.

Just alerting you that I think you may have meant to put this in another thread.

 

[sewgood]

This is so interesting. Why is it that the yurchenko is considered the “harder” or “better” vault? I would imagine doing a layout tsuk or twisting from a tsuk would be super hard. Is it just easier to build off the yurchenko so it’s now assumed it’s the “better” vault to do?

I think most coaches feel more comfortable coaching yuri's because that's what they did. And it is easier to build on a yuri vs building onto a tsuk, i.e. adding half twists. Especially since the goal for most coaches who are coaching L10/college hopefuls is to get them to do Y1.5s by the time they are recruited.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Just alerting you that I think you may have meant to put this in another thread.

Wow, I did! and now I can't delete it. Sorry every one, please carry on with the proper discussion.

 

[Aussie_coach]

This is so interesting. Why is it that the yurchenko is considered the “harder” or “better” vault? I would imagine doing a layout tsuk or twisting from a tsuk would be super hard. Is it just easier to build off the yurchenko so it’s now assumed it’s the “better” vault to do?

The hope is to encourage more kids to do the Yurchenkos so they can push it to higher levels. Instead of thinking in the short term and doing the tsukahara to get the extra 0.2. Most girls will be able to get more twists out of a Yurchenko.

Up until now, in Australia, the Tusk has been worth more than the Yurchenko and we see very few Yurchenkos at competitions, most of the kids are flipping tusks instead. But from next year that will change and they will both have the same value, so hopefully more people will take the Yurchenko route.

 

[chalkbowl]

On beam, she does a basic A mount, full turn, switch quarter, the fwo-bt series, a ro-lo dismount and another A jump.

On floor, she does a 1.5 turn, a fhs-fhalf, a flo-fpike and a ro-bhs-bhalf. She does a switch leap that she lands in full split on the ground and a straddle quarter turn in series with another 180 jump of some kind.

Here would be her "up to level" deductions if she did the following routines in level 8:

Beam: Full Turn (A), Switch Leap 1/4 (C), FWO + Back Tuck (B+C), RO (B) + Layout (A)

Beam Composition: Up To Level Acro: .05 (Needs one more B for no deduction), Up to Level Dance: .15 (Needs another B for no deduction), Up to level dismount: No deduction

Floor: 1.5 Turn (B), FHS +Front 1/2? (A+B), Front Layout + Front Pike (B+B), RO + BHS + Back Layout 1/2 (A+A+B), Switch Leap (B?), Straddle Jump (B) + ?
(I'm assuming somewhere in there she has a dance passage for a special requirement...)

Floor Composition: Up to Level Acro: No Deduction, Up to level dance: No deduction, Up to level last pass: No deduction