Was this skill invented just to torture parents?

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NGL780309

I am referring to the mill circle. I've read so much on here about mill circles and the various problems, but couldn't really find much to address DD's problem. DD works well with "magic words" as she calls them with some of her skills. Sometimes if she can have one word that she says to herself when she does a skill it helps her. Is that weird?

So DD's problem is that she sometimes has trouble stopping at the top of the bar. Somedays she'll make all of them and then the next practice it's hit or miss. I think she might actually have gotten worse at them as of late. She never doesn't make it all the way or hooks her leg or any of the other problems I've read about. Her legs are straight and look pretty. It's always an issue of going over twice. Her coach said the problem was that she's pushing up so high and stepping so far that she has too much momentum to stop. She actually did two in a row the other day and stopped on the 2nd one. DD's coached told her there was no bonus in Level 4:D.

DD said she tries saying the word "slow" to herself before going but it wasn't very magic because it only works sometimes.

Her dad was lending a word of advice and he says she just needs to press down harder on the bar at the end and have strong arms. He says she's just forgetting to use her arms at the end. He said basically when she goes over twice she's tired and just not trying.

I'm sure this is not an unusual problem, but none of DD's teammates have this issue. They either do is right all the time or they still struggle with getting it around.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is there some magic words that have helped your gymnasts?

She makes it most of the time and seems to be able to make it when she really wants to (like when she must show a routine to rotate), so maybe it is more of a focus/not really trying issue.
 
Your dd is completely normal, lol. I think that it's great that your dd is already using a type of 'mental training' by saying key words to herself while doing skills. It's a great technique used by many - Dr Ali calls it mental choreography I believe. It's a great habit to have.

At least if she does this at a meet, she will get credit for completing the skill (if she was not making it around, and instead falling backwards = no credit for skill) and just taking the deduction for going around again. She'll learn to control it eventually.

Just my humble opinion, but I really don't GET why they even train a mill circle? Try as I may, I just can't find any value in training it (no progression to other skills gained) until Maybe the front giant (hand placement while doing mill circle - wrist shift is the word I was looking for [thanks GT] ), which can't be a serious training technique since those 2 skills are SO far apart Level-wise. Maybe someone else on here has a clue why Level 4 bothers with this skill? Is there nothing else that would be worthwhile to train/compete at this level?

Level 7 vault gets my goat as well (why not a training vault for tsuk or yurchenko here instead of ANOTHER year of fhs) but that is for a whole different thread, lol
 
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I don't really see the purpose of the mill circle. The only reasoning I've heard for it is that it supposedly allows gymnasts to practice the wrist shift for front giants -- but why put in a level 4 routine a drill for a skill that won't be used until level 9 at the earliest?

I think the mill circle is completely pointless.
 
I much prefer the Australian level 4 routine

National Code is

2 glide swings + Pullover or Kip as bonus, cast back hip circle, tuck on jump to high bar, swing pullover toe shoot/sole circle dismount
 
It's just an early alternate grip skill. Obviously it's not going to teach front giants. It's not a bad idea to get strong in that grip. Kids as early as level 5 can start doing baby swing jumping over the bar in undergrip.

Anyway, I'd have her do two things. 1. Grip the bar tighter on top as she comes up - make it harder to shift the hands around again. 2. Don't kick the second leg back coming on top of the bar. Point the "bad leg" toe down to the floor and just lift the good leg/leading leg off the bar.
 
Your dd is completely normal, lol. I think that it's great that your dd is already using a type of 'mental training' by saying key words to herself while doing skills. It's a great technique used by many - Dr Ali calls it mental choreography I believe. It's a great habit to have.

At least if she does this at a meet, she will get credit for completing the skill (if she was not making it around, and instead falling backwards = no credit for skill) and just taking the deduction for going around again. She'll learn to control it eventually.

Just my humble opinion, but I really don't GET why they even train a mill circle? Try as I may, I just can't find any value in training it (no progression to other skills gained) until Maybe the front giant (hand placement while doing mill circle), which can't be a serious training technique since those 2 skills are SO far apart Level-wise. Maybe someone else on here has a clue why Level 4 bothers with this skill? Is there nothing else that would be worthwhile to train/compete at this level?

Level 7 vault gets my goat as well (why not a training vault for tsuk or yurchenko here instead of ANOTHER year of fhs) but that is for a whole different thread, lol

I know she'll get it consistent eventually or maybe she won't and it's just going to be a skill she'll be hit or miss on. I guess I'm just worried about it because bars is probably her strongest event and probably her biggest scoring potential. I guess it's good news that she'll get credit for it even if she falls over. I was just hoping somebody might have a key word or thought for their gymnasts that really helped them. Her coach said jokingly that at least she isn't tenative. She really goes for it and you often can't teach that.

I had never really heard that gymnasts use mental choreography, but it makes sense. I just knew it helped her to really focus on what she's doing. It's good to know that she's doing something helpful. I'm not really sure where she got it from. Maybe one of her coaches or maybe it's just the way her mind works.

I guess whether it's a useful skill or not she'll be learning to deal with frustration. Maybe that's the purpose for it! My DD thinks that the shoot-thru helps her with her squat-on. She thinks they feel similar. I'm not sure that's true because I've never done either skill. She has a great squat on and she never struggled with the shoot-thru either.
 
I guess whether it's a useful skill or not she'll be learning to deal with frustration. Maybe that's the purpose for it!

LOL NGL!!! Maybe that is the purpose for it! DD1 never did her mill circle well-but she skipped straight to L5 so she never had to compete it anyway. DD2 did 2 years of L4 (= LOTS of mill circles!) 1st year they were hit or miss. 2nd year they were beautiful with much more control. In the 2nd year she was taught to squeeze with the back leg during the fall and squeeze with the front leg during the rise (if that makes sense???) At the top of the circle she was told to lift her front leg high while squeezing with her back leg, and point her toe to stop from over rotating. I have no idea if that helps or not, but it worked for DD2. DD3 is working them now and is not quite making them yet...Good luck to your daughter :)
 
A skill like a mill circle just adds to the notion that success/failure at L4 is no indication of the levels to come.
 
It's just an early alternate grip skill. Obviously it's not going to teach front giants. It's not a bad idea to get strong in that grip. Kids as early as level 5 can start doing baby swing jumping over the bar in undergrip.

Anyway, I'd have her do two things. 1. Grip the bar tighter on top as she comes up - make it harder to shift the hands around again. 2. Don't kick the second leg back coming on top of the bar. Point the "bad leg" toe down to the floor and just lift the good leg/leading leg off the bar.

I think 1) is exactly what dad was telling her to do. I haven't heard anyone suggest 2) and I think that just might do the trick for her. I love CB! I'm picturing how she does the skill and she's really open in a split with the back leg coming up. Is that back leg supposed/okay to touch the bar at the end? I'm asking because her new gym has really wanted her to show clear support at the end of the mill circle by not letting that front leg touch the bar. Perhaps in trying to do that she has gotten confused and is trying to split really big at the end. I'm not sure that makes sense the way I'm saying it, but it makes sense in my mind.
 
mill circles..what a waste of time. but in the interim tell her to use her thumbs when she shifts on top of the bar. that's the fix.:)
 
Have her think about doing her "split" at the top of the bar when she comes around. This works for my 5 year old and it looks beautuful. She is scoring in the very high nines on her level 3 routine.
 
I think 1) is exactly what dad was telling her to do. I haven't heard anyone suggest 2) and I think that just might do the trick for her. I love CB! I'm picturing how she does the skill and she's really open in a split with the back leg coming up. Is that back leg supposed/okay to touch the bar at the end? I'm asking because her new gym has really wanted her to show clear support at the end of the mill circle by not letting that front leg touch the bar. Perhaps in trying to do that she has gotten confused and is trying to split really big at the end. I'm not sure that makes sense the way I'm saying it, but it makes sense in my mind.

Yes they need to show a clear support at the end with the front leg off the bar. The way this is written in the compulsory text is "failure to show a clear stride support" which I interpret to mean an extended body position without the front thigh touching (i.e. push through the shoulders). There is no specific deduction listed for touching the back thigh to bar in this position. For the initiation of the circle the text states "lift and extend the Right leg forward to initiate the circle with the thigh of the Left leg touching the bar." The part about finish simply states "finish in a clear stride support". I don't take this to imply the back leg needs to be off the bar, merely that the support needs to be on the hands.

So the main reasons kids go around again is that they kick their back leg and let their front leg drop, which causes their upper body to dump over. I also tell the kids to imagine that there is a table in front of the bar, slightly about the bar height, and they have to keep their leg on or over the table when they finish. The other toe goes straight down to the floor. Clear stride support is actually difficult to do this way that is why so many kids have trouble. It is easier to keep the front thigh off the bar by splitting the legs more but this causes the back heel to essentially be doing a heel drive motion that is harder to balance. Some kids can do it but there is usually a sort of arm buckle so I focus solely on the lift of the front leg which I think is better for strength anyway. Alternatively you can tell them to finish pointing the front toe up toward the high bar and the back toe down to the floor. I do a lot of static spotted holds in this position to get strong.

What you can do is get some sort of rod or dowel, just something to hold, preferably something that'll keep it's shape, but I guess in a pinch just a towel or anything to hold for awareness. She can hold it under the front leg while standing on the floor and practice keeping straight arms tall body with the front leg off it. Then go to releve and try to lift the leg even higher a few times (like 5). The standing position will make it easier to show a tall body with the leg underneath. Also you can do this facing in front of a wall placing the front toe on the wall for balance (or with someone helping to lift the leg and balance).
 
Well I just wanted to report back that DD used her thumbs today on her mill circle and it reallp helped her. She made every mill circle without falling over. On one of them she had to really fight to save it and bent her arms a little, but she didn't fall. So thank you very, very much for the advice.

I was talking to another parent and told them DD was going to try that today and the mom told me that all of the girls do that and that's how they were taught in Level 3. Well DD never did level 3 and was at another gym so I guessed she missed out. I guess her coaches just didn't notice she wasn't doing that. Their bar coach actually had her last day 2 weeks ago and they have had different coaches while they wait for a replacement.
 
Hmm, well it's not just in L3, generally whenever they learn it I would think they would do it that way. I just assume that's kind of a given. It's easier to balance at the beginning also by using the thumbs I think. I would never do a front giant without my thumbs over the bar so I wouldn't teach this skill without it either.

For everything else I think it is imperative the thumb stay with the other fingers. I will sometimes make an exception on cast handstand if it helps them to balance at the top (and shift the thumbs back for the downswing) however I prefer not to in general. Well and some turning skills but for basic L4-7 skills. I know for most people who swing men's high bar this is blasphemy though ;)
 
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Well DD learned her mill circle at her old gym where frankly they did just about everything wrong. You should have seen the team at the first Level 4 meet. Some of the girls scored 4's and 5's on bars. Seriously. Her old coach had no coaching experience, nor gymnastics experience. Basically the level 4 coach had quit and they pulled a coach from preschool who was a dancer, but never a gymnast. In some ways you can't fault her because isn't it the gym"s job or head coaches job to teach her or hire someone who knows? I'm so glad we left.

I was talking about this with her dad and he has never coached a mill circle either. He never coached Level 4 in the US and it was not a skill that was taught in his country. He doesn't coach JO at all.

But regardless of how long it took her to figure out, I'm happy she knows now. Thank you! I'm so glad I asked. I wasn't really expecting some magic answer, but it turns out there was one. I'm really happy with the new gym, but wish they had noticed. I know now that they teach it that way so I guess they just didn't notice with her.
 
Yes, I am glad you have found a better program, when a gym doesn't pay attention to their developmental program or have quality coaching at the early levels I think it doesn't reflect well on the program overall. Even if they say they will do better in the other levels or move the kids to different groups, etc. Why not put effort into a quality program at all levels? It just makes you wonder which groups will be shoved aside in the future and would your daughter constantly be experiencing that.

It sounds like she's figured it out. I'm sure she'll really improve as the season progresses.
 
Well DD learned her mill circle at her old gym where frankly they did just about everything wrong. You should have seen the team at the first Level 4 meet. Some of the girls scored 4's and 5's on bars. Seriously. Her old coach had no coaching experience, nor gymnastics experience. Basically the level 4 coach had quit and they pulled a coach from preschool who was a dancer, but never a gymnast. In some ways you can't fault her because isn't it the gym"s job or head coaches job to teach her or hire someone who knows? I'm so glad we left.

I was talking about this with her dad and he has never coached a mill circle either. He never coached Level 4 in the US and it was not a skill that was taught in his country. He doesn't coach JO at all.

But regardless of how long it took her to figure out, I'm happy she knows now. Thank you! I'm so glad I asked. I wasn't really expecting some magic answer, but it turns out there was one. I'm really happy with the new gym, but wish they had noticed. I know now that they teach it that way so I guess they just didn't notice with her.

;).............................
 
Yes, I am glad you have found a better program, when a gym doesn't pay attention to their developmental program or have quality coaching at the early levels I think it doesn't reflect well on the program overall. Even if they say they will do better in the other levels or move the kids to different groups, etc. Why not put effort into a quality program at all levels? It just makes you wonder which groups will be shoved aside in the future and would your daughter constantly be experiencing that.

It sounds like she's figured it out. I'm sure she'll really improve as the season progresses.

I think it was a situation where the owner just didn't care. The head coach told me when we were leaving that she had told the owner there was a problem, but owner wouldn't listen. A few weeks after we left the gym was sold. They must have known they were planning on selling and just didn't care. I've actually heard the new owner is trying to fix things, but I'm still glad we left. I would rather have my child where I know the coaching is good than wait around to see what might happen.

I'm also happy because I really don't like the head coach very much. I've had over a decade watching her coach and while she's a good coach to an extent she's not someone I'd want my child dealing with. She can be really mean and hasn't really adapted to the US system. There's also been issues in the past where the girls are competing with low start values on floor because she thinks something counts, but the judges tell her the girl isn't getting credit for it. She'll refuse to change it and just say they are wrong. Instead of fixing the problem she'll let the poor kids compete with less than a 10 SV (I'm talking about Level 10). I think it's pretty poor coaching when you have a gymnast competing a DLO, Front lay front lay and double pike and they have a 9.8 SV on floor because they are missing something. I could go on, but I'm glad to be gone from there.
 
My dd is having trouble with the mill circle right now...I can't really tell what her problem is but I hope the coaches figure it out with her soon!
 
Actually, the mill circle came a bit easier to DD than the darn FHC although she was hit or miss at the earlier meet. I noticed that once the FHC clicked, her mill circle became much more consistent. Maybe it was hand placement issues?
 

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