Parents When to scratch an event?

[SurpriseGymMom]

I'm sorry your DS is having a block right now!

Our gym follows the "you must consistently show safe, complete routines(at practice) in order to compete" philosophy. I can absolutely understand how terribly frustrating it would be, trust me, I breathe a sigh of relief when my DD "clears" her events in the week leading up to a meet. It's never a given for her on her "problem event". I would love to be able to say "hey coach, I don't really care if she gets a 5 because she skips the BHS on beam" or whatever skill it may be but the truth is that it's not up to me. The gym sets the standards and rules for a reason, usually it's years and years of experience. My gym will NOT send kids out to embarrass themselves (=not having the necessary skills for the level) and we will NOT spot in competition. We also don't "sandbag", our gymnasts compete where they are (sometimes barely!) proficient. As long as they can perform the routines with all the intended skills, they can compete.
I get that you're disappointed, and part of me understands how you feel about paying for the training etc, but you simply have to try to see the bigger picture. It sounds as if this may not be handled the best way possible at your gym, but hopefully the coach has your sons best interest and development as a gymnast at heart.
Let it go, take the pressure off your son and let him work through his block with his coach. I hope he is able to make progress soon!!!

 

[Deleted member 10727]

Honestly, it wasn't the money, but I hoped to use that as leverage. My son loves to perform, and that has always been what motivates him.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Well here comes harsh Coachp, so delete this if you want everything sugar coated, but you asked,,,,,, first off this is the internet so I am going to assume that the child has a baulking issue and the coach scratched him, period. GOOD COACHING.... The simple fact that you are upset at this is only adding to the anxiety that your son is going through. In other words you are making it worse... yep, you.... And doing it in warm up so you can compete it is a no brainer.... And please don't tell me that your son has no idea that you are upset at this..... Stay out of it and hope your coach doesn't read this....

 

[Deleted member 10727]

That is very harsh.

 

[z2akids]

Honestly, it wasn't the money, but I hoped to use that as leverage. My son loves to perform, and that has always been what motivates him.

I don't understand. Who is thst you are using the $$ as leverage with?

If it is your son, I cannot imagine that threatening to pull the $$ if he can't compete all 6 events will have the desired effect.

If it is the coach, I imagine it would come across as you prefer monetary value over the safety of your son.

In any event, in cannot see any way that bringing up the money you spend as leverage will make your son get past his difficulties. I could see it having a horrible opposite effect.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

No, no, no I didn't threaten to pull or anything. I just meant maybe he could change the routine. Pull out the back tumbling, take the hit on the score. One of my joys of this is watching him, and he has beautiful skills on floor, despite the back tumbling. We are also still learning about this sport.
You have to realize that the coach never communicated with us and this came as a shock when he said it WASN'T a safety issue, but a motivational leverage point (see, everyone does it). If he'd sat down and explained, maybe we would have understood better, but we have no idea what's going on until we see our kid at the meet looking so upset and hurt.

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

Did he tell your DS that he would probably/might scratch? I know that our coaches may or may not discuss this with parents. I *think* they would at least let them know, but at the same time it's not up for discussion. I work with DDs coaches and I'm there for most of her practices (on the floor, coaching as well) so I have a different access to information. I do know that the girls most certainly know if they are in the danger zone of scratching though (DD has been, plenty of times!) but I have never been notified in any way. I ask DD if she has "cleared" her events and she lets me know.
I'm just asking because you seem upset at the "shock" of it, but it may be possible that the gymnasts are very well aware that this could happen..?

 

[Deleted member 10727]

He told him at the first meet just before floor. Pressure? We were not aware, but it helps to make the parents aware to help prepare the kid, and so they know what is going on when they see your kid looking upset and sitting out. I have told my kid I don't care about floor, but I love watching it. Honestly, I don't care about scores either. I just want strong foundations for him, because he wants this.

I asked at this last meet, and no, he was not told, and he had exactly 30 seconds to warm up. I had parents calling me, and that was also upsetting. I wasn't at the last meet.

 

[Sasha]

To the OP's original question (as there are some layers to the question), I think what people are mostly saying is...

Is scratching an event commonplace / acceptable coaching practice for a missing skill?
YES

What about if the missing skill is due to a block? Still common/acceptable?
YES - though there is more variability here, as there is debate on whether omitting a missing skill in a routine is acceptable (varies by gym).

Is balking on a skill a potential safety issue?
YES, even though this boy reportedly hasn't fallen at any point, it is still considered a risk, generally, and a common reason for scratching.

It is common and OK for a coach to make the final decision on scratching after warming up at a meet? Even if they planned all week to compete a kid?
YES

Is using threat of scratching as "punishment" in order to "motivate" a gymnast with a block a good idea?
NO. Scratching is fine if that is the policy, but framing it as punishment is not helpful.

Should a Coach communicate with a Parent about the scratching policy and what they expect for the athlete given his limitations?
Ideally, YES. Communication is always helpful to set expectations. But it is the Coach's decision, ultimately.

When a Coach verbally commits to one thing, then does another, without proper explanation or preparing the athlete, is that OK?
MAYBE. Definitely frustrating. Though there may be a good reason for a Coach to switch a game plan at the last minute, this particular situation seems more punitive.

Would bringing up that we are "paying for 6 events" be useful to convince the coach to let him compete?
NO.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

Very good summary, Sasha. Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

BTW, it took the time of one coach, who is not my son's coach and doesn't even know him personally, to explain why he should be scratched, for me to understand. This coach spent more time communicating to me than our son's coach did. That said, this coach also understands the issue, and wouldn't use the scratch as a motivator or punishment.

 

[profmom]

I guess my question is not whether the coach communicated what was going on to you. It's what communication went on to your son. At this point, I leave all the details about what's going on at meets to the kids to work out with the coaches. They then tell me if they are skipping any events or doing any routines without full start values and I explain it to their dad. I think it is much more important that the coach communicate with the athlete than the parents, though ideally there will be some communication with the parents as well as the athlete.

I know it's a very tangled ball of string now among you, your son, and the coach, but if there is anything at all you can do to ensure that your son is comfortable telling you about his interactions with his coach without worrying that you will be upset or angered by what he reports, it really helps.

 

[skschlag]

profmom, I agree, now that D is a teenager, that the coach should be communicating with him. I don't think I would have been ok with that when he was younger.

If the coach has sad it is NOT a safety issue, then let's take that off the table. This coach is trying to "motivate through fear" and that just does not work with all kiddos. And when it doesn't work, he gives up on the kid. Over the time this has been going on, OP has posted several times. From what I can tell, OP has stayed out of the gymnastics side of things, only getting involved when it seemed to cross a line.

So, @coachp, I agree wtih you that if those things are going on, it does add to the anxiety. However, let's assume for a moment that the parent has tried to stay out of it. Let's also say that the kiddo can do the skill with a different coach without problem. Then, add this coach in, telling the kid before the floor warmup that if he balks even once he is scratching floor. Who is adding the anxiety now? There is no encouragement...no coaching. Just a threat. Very few young children respond well to that. Our coach would be out there, with the team, cheering the kiddo on as they go fro the skill.

 

[profmom]

I think where we agree, Skschlag, is that whatever the coach is or isn't communicating to the parents, what's most important is what the coach is communicating to the child. And what should be communicated here is that yes, balking is dangerous and warrants scratching, but blocks can be conquered with enough time and patience, and there's nothing wrong with holding off on competing while one is continuing to work through progressions back in the gym until the skill is solid and safe. And above all that scratching should not be framed as a punitive thing to the athlete in these kinds of situations!

The more I think about this, the more I think that the coach's original idea -- IF PROPERLY FRAMED -- of telling him no floor this season may be the right way to go. But only if it's framed as a way of helping him work through a frustrating block that is not his fault and not in any way as a punishment or form of motivation. Either that or he should be permitted to compete floor but not attempt the back tumbling that's giving him so much trouble right now. This middle ground is unsustainable for everyone.

 

[skschlag]

agreed. I thikn with a younger gymnast though, this info should be communicated to the parent as well. And framed as, "at this time, it isn't really safe for you to do this in a meet. But we will keep working on it together" and not as "if you balk even one time you are scratching floor!"

Sheesh..D balks on a skill before every meet, and nails it in competition. Sometimes, it just doesn't feel right the first time. I think it would be worse if the kid forced through it with a bad bounce or not enough power the first time during warm up due to fear!

But yes, this uncertainty and negativity is not helping anyone

 

[gracyomalley]

I do believe baulking is a safety issue and each year when my DD was younger her coach had a parent meeting where it was explained that this was a big one - that the girls were taught in each practice that
"2 baulks and you are done with that skill/pass/event for the day". This was something that was held up in most meets, although frankly that was a smaller team with a very hands on head coach and generally baulks had been worked out by meet time, or different skills substituted where able - in the lower levels (old 5) there were a few kids who needed a spot on a skill their first meet - but that was not continued as they moved up. When an athlete was struggling there was open communication with parents - not in the sense of parents having decision making power, but in knowing why the coach did what was done and how it was part of a long term plan to preserve the kids self esteem (not competing where they would feel "failure"), love of the sport and benefit them in their long term progression.

DSs previous coach held boys at levels sometimes 3 years - believed in all bonuses, and that kids would be happier if winning. For most of the boys this worked well and since it was clearly communicated parents did not feel a need to question. New coach is training for high level optionals - clearly states to boys and parents that it is not important how they do now at meets (although they are improving) but that he is "building gymnasts"...again, checks in with parents as he leaves the gym EACH practice and speaks personally to us after each meet with a positive comment and constructive criticism after each meet.

I mention these 3 examples because each was a different approach to training/competing and possibly each coach would have dealt with the OPs sons situation differently - however, each coach knew what they were doing and why, had experience and a track record and communicated clearly to the kids and parents what was expected. In none of these instances were kids who struggled made to feel bad about it - its just the way it is....kind words for each kiddo, but safety first. De-emphasizing competition and performance in the short term to allow for long term participation in the sport.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Well,, lets take a look at all the posts from the op first. And hopefully this helps others.... (cut and pasted some of it, and bolded some areas that were relevant to the point). Just read the bolded parts.

START "I brought it up to the coach before meet season and said that I would like it if my kid could do the floor. I asked if it was a safety issue, and he said no, but the motivation! I asked that he please be allowed to do floor if he wants to do floor at competitions. I don;t care if he gets a 5. The back tumbling is not all there is to the routine. I pay for 6 events and I want to see 6 events.


The first meet he scratched my son. My son balked (I have come to hate that word) during warm up and the coach scratched him in front of everyone. My son was crushed. And he didn't magically gain the back tumbling from being motivated. I admit to sending a very strongly worded msg to the coach, and I was upset because he told me he would not scratch him.

The next meet was a home meet, and my son competed floor. It was gorgeous. Beautiful lines. He couldn't do his back tumbling but he would try and move on to the next part. I loved it. And he was calm. He got a 5.5.


The next meet was last weekend, and the coach scratched him. This was not a home meet. He told my husband afterwards that my son balked (ugh) all last week, and he scratched him. He said it was a safety issue. I asked my son if he'd fallen or landed on his head or anything, and he looked taken aback and said no. The coach also told my husband that he may be scratched all season. Can I get some advice on if this is appropriate? I would be happy to briefly share his floor video here if it helps.


I am trying to understand why I am paying for meets with 6 events, training all year for 6 events, if my son can't compete them all. Nothing about a spot was mentioned, so I don't think that is an issue. It could be he does it with a spot at gym, but I doubt it. Obviously it has not made a difference either way. This is affecting all of his other events, and his confidence. He is starting to give up and I really feel this is a case of not meeting expectations and embarrassment for the coach. But instead of assuming that, I thought I would ask here first.


Honestly, it wasn't the money, but I hoped to use that as leverage. My son loves to perform, and that has always been what motivates him.


No, no, no I didn't threaten to pull or anything. I just meant maybe he could change the routine. Pull out the back tumbling, take the hit on the score. One of my joys of this is watching him, and he has beautiful skills on floor, despite the back tumbling. We are also still learning about this sport.

You have to realize that the coach never communicated with us and this came as a shock when he said it WASN'T a safety issue, but a motivational leverage point (see, everyone does it). If he'd sat down and explained, maybe we would have understood better, but we have no idea what's going on until we see our kid at the meet looking so upset and hurt.


He told him at the first meet just before floor. Pressure? We were not aware, but it helps to make the parents aware to help prepare the kid, and so they know what is going on when they see your kid looking upset and sitting out. I have told my kid I don't care about floor, but I love watching it. Honestly, I don't care about scores either. I just want strong foundations for him, because he wants this.


I asked at this last meet, and no, he was not told, and he had exactly 30 seconds to warm up. I had parents calling me, and that was also upsetting. I wasn't at the last meet." END

The major problem seen here is a clear pattern that this really isn't about what is best for the child this really is about what the parents wants and believes in. Honestly if I were going to post a satire about how not to engage or behave with fear issues, this post would pretty much be it.... So harsh, yes, but this is a problem and red flags are everywhere... Was her child upset? yes, either way this is unavoidable, but is mom making it better or worse? Worse. The next post will be the same post but with replies to problem areas, again I hope this helps at least one person out there..

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Okay, so replies are posted below with underline.


START

I brought it up to the coach before meet season and said that I would like it if my kid could do the floor. (So you brought it up with the coach before season knowing that your son may not do floor, you asked that he be able to do floor regardless, yet you claim that that it was never communicated with you and you were in complete shock????? Red flag) I asked if it was a safety issue, and he said no, but the motivation! (You clearly write below that, “He said it was a safety issue” Red Flag). I asked that he please be allowed to do floor if he wants to do floor at competitions. I don;t care if he gets a 5. (You have no say, regardless of any sport, it’s not about you.. And plenty of clubs let kids go out and get 5.5’s, those clubs are not very competitive and parents end up leaving them!) The back tumbling is not all there is to the routine. I pay for 6 events and I want to see 6 events. (So if you son plays football or baseball and doesn’t play for the whole game you want your money back? Might want to watch any sport and see the actual playing time of athletes, and again what you want is irrelevant and not important to the coaching community, being successful and building is!).


The first meet he scratched my son. My son balked (I have come to hate that word) during warm up and the coach scratched him in front of everyone. My son was crushed. (Really…. He was probably relieved and embarrassed and knew you would be upset, so yea I am sure he was emotional, you are the only one who wants him to get 5’s. Not to mention he’s a boy and needs to toughen up because in other sports they play on the bench a lot). And he didn't magically gain the back tumbling from being motivated. I admit to sending a very strongly worded msg to the coach, and I was upset because he told me he would not scratch him. (Do I even need to reply? What NOT TO DO AS A PARENT).

The next meet was a home meet, and my son competed floor. It was gorgeous. Beautiful lines. He couldn't do his back tumbling but he would try and move on to the next part. I loved it. And he was calm. He got a 5.5. (Wow,, you must have been happy and your son relieved that he didn’t have to deal with you sending the coach angry emails… )


The next meet was last weekend, and the coach scratched him. This was not a home meet. He told my husband afterwards that my son balked (ugh) all last week, and he scratched him. (I have said this a hundred times on this site, This is how you baulking correctly). He said it was a safety issue. (Because it is) I asked my son if he'd fallen or landed on his head or anything, and he looked taken aback and said no. (If you asked the coach this, then yea your arguing with him and being rude) The coach also told my husband that he may be scratched all season. (One more time, This is how you deal with baulking correctly ). Can I get some advice on if this is appropriate? I would be happy to briefly share his floor video here if it helps.


I am trying to understand why I am paying for meets with 6 events, training all year for 6 events, if my son can't compete them all. (yes and you are part of the problem). Nothing about a spot was mentioned, so I don't think that is an issue. It could be he does it with a spot at gym, but I doubt it. Obviously it has not made a difference either way. This is affecting all of his other events, and his confidence.(again, this is why you scratch them and possibly for the season) He is starting to give up and I really feel this is a case of not meeting expectations and embarrassment for the coach. (I am going to go out on a limb here and say it’s more embarrassing for you, since you actually have parents calling you to report such things when you are not at the meet, which means you have made a huge issue of this not only at home but in the parent area,,,,). But instead of assuming that, I thought I would ask here first.


Honestly, it wasn't the money, but I hoped to use that as leverage. (you should be happy you are still at your gym, however you may want to start looking around because many gyms will let you go at the end of the season for this). My son loves to perform, and that has always been what motivates him. (your son just wants to have fun and isn’t and you are making is sooo much worse).


No, no, no I didn't threaten to pull or anything. (well,,,, yea you did…) I just meant maybe he could change the routine. Pull out the back tumbling, take the hit on the score. One of my joys of this is watching him, and he has beautiful skills on floor, despite the back tumbling. We are also still learning about this sport.

You have to realize that the coach never communicated with us and this came as a shock when he said it WASN'T a safety issue, but a motivational leverage point (see, everyone does it). If he'd sat down and explained, maybe we would have understood better, but we have no idea what's going on until we see our kid at the meet looking so upset and hurt. (again you clearly posted that you had a conversation before the season even started in which you were lobbying for your son to do floor regardless of score, Red Flag)….


He told him at the first meet just before floor. Pressure? We were not aware, but it helps to make the parents aware to help prepare the kid, and so they know what is going on when they see your kid looking upset and sitting out. I have told my kid I don't care about floor, (you are on the internet looking for justification right now about floor, so,,, Red Flag). but I love watching it. Honestly, I don't care about scores either. I just want strong foundations for him, because he wants this. (last time,,, you are making it sooo much worse for him)..


I asked at this last meet, and no, he was not told, and he had exactly 30 seconds to warm up. I had parents calling me, and that was also upsetting. I wasn't at the last meet.

END,


Hope that helps someone out there, and to the OP, my advice (and remember you did ask for advice), is to do the following.

1. Make sure that you are not in the gym during workouts.

2. Make peace with yourself and accept that time and rest need apply to baulking issues

3. Apologize to the coaches about your behavior and tell them you are OUT.

4. Do not talk to your son about any of this anymore…

Best of luck. And remember I genuinely care about all kids, hope this helps.

 

[cbifoja]

I guess my question is not whether the coach communicated what was going on to you. It's what communication went on to your son. At this point, I leave all the details about what's going on at meets to the kids to work out with the coaches. They then tell me if they are skipping any events or doing any routines without full start values and I explain it to their dad. I think it is much more important that the coach communicate with the athlete than the parents, though ideally there will be some communication with the parents as well as the athlete.

I know it's a very tangled ball of string now among you, your son, and the coach, but if there is anything at all you can do to ensure that your son is comfortable telling you about his interactions with his coach without worrying that you will be upset or angered by what he reports, it really helps.

We just started a new gym and I feel so good about the coaching staff that this is my new philosophy too! I don't want to be involved in any gymnastics related decisions that involve routines, skills, levels, start values, or even leotard choices! That is now DD's job!

 

[munchkin3]

So Im going out on a limb here to point out that the OP means no harm. I totally understand Coachp's perpective as a veteran coach too.
When I was new and an inexperienced newbie in gymnastics there was SO much i did not understand. Sports like soccer and basketball do absolutely NOTHING to prepare a parent for the complicated sport of gymnastics and how it relates to children.
From OP perspective, her son needs to preform a skill that he was performing previously and now cant....she does not understand block or vestibular issues.
The coach has scratched her son repeatedly from floor and she is taking it as punishment to her Son. OP feels since her son is having trouble but really WANTS to do the skill, its the coach isnt 'helping'. Coach's stern or strict demeanor is received as anger and punishment.
Paying for the meets and not getting what you are paying for, this trap is something a lot of parents fall into.....the coach is somehow not getting the job done and therefore the parents are not getting their moneys worth.....
The parent feels as if no one has communicated it to them and this is bad since they should know everything thats going on with their child....

to the OP- your child is suffering from a mental block which if not handled properly could end his gymnastics. The only way to solve this problem is with TIME, PATIENCE and UNDERSTANDING......the Coach has not communicated it to you because of fear that you could make it worse (which you are doing).
I assume the coach has experience and knows how to deal with blocks. He knows that he cannot 'baby' your son through it. He knows that he cant over emphasize it. He knows he must treat your son as he would all other athletes and your son needs to learn that the rules apply to everybody. I would hope that the coach is taking the correct steps to help your son through these issues...(maybe taking it all the way back to basics). I hope the coach has explained mental blocks to him and I hope they both understand that they happen all the time.

The coaches get JUST AS FRUSTRATED as does the athlete.....but this frustration must be managed through the athlete and coach WITHOUT the parents intervention. This is how trust is established.....this is how your son will be able to to gymnastics for many years.....the more you get involved, the more you hinder your child.

The only response from a parent is, 'im sorry you are struggling with this, But I believe in you! just keep working hard, and LISTEN TO YOUR COACH'
And an 'Im so proud of you' never hurt either.

Good luck!!