Parents Who has responsibility?

[ProudDad]

But there is a diffeence between sloppy or missing skills and ones that are dangerous. I have thought "that kid shouldn't be doing that skill today" when I see something dangerous looking happen repeatedly in warmup and in competition. And I do think someone should stop them before they get hurt. And I do wonder why their coach let's them continue

THIS!

 

[rjb123]

Ok. Here is my honest take. I have seen scary stuff at meets before. Bars that made me want to throw up because it was SCARY. (this was optionals). Floor tumbling that included headsprings. (compulsory). There is a great big difference between a child freezing, bombing an event, having a bad day (or a REALLY bad day) and unsafe. After having a child sustain an injury that was fairly significant and required surgery and rehab it is harder to see this stuff. And scarier because you KNOW what could happen. My DD had a bad injury in practice at a gym that is VERY focused on safety. Truly the coaches are flat out outstanding and they have the resumes to prove it. And yet it still happened. One slip and bam. So I guess as a parent I can understand where gym dad is coming from. As a parent you want to believe that someone, anyone would step in and stop a disaster in the making. At least I would! Look, we are told on here all the time to "trust the coaches" etc, but at the same time, you read on here all the time about the really bad coaching that goes on out there too. And lots of times, parents don't have any idea that things are unsafe or not kosher. How would they? They take their kid to mom and me gym and the next thing they know they are promised the Olympics and little Sally is doing 30 hours in a "fast track program". They maybe are told "oh scores don't really matter- we just want to move her along". Meanwhile Sally is doing things that she is not ready for and not safe to do. Then, at a meet, you toss in some nerves and pressure- yikes! So it sure would make me feel better to know that there is *some* sort of check and balance system out there at meets. Should it be Petunia Parent in the stands? No way! But surely there is SOME check in place to prevent disaster! I would hate to think that everyone just turned the other way when they see unsafe things. Because in the end, these are little kids. And they NEED someone to step in for them to keep them safe at times, right?
I could just be off the wall sappy (I am that mom who will cheer *loudly* for any kid up there struggling- when I see any child fall off beam, or miss a vault or anything at a meet. I almost broke down in tears once this year when I saw a girl (mind you I have no clue what team she was from!) miss both vaults and break down in tears.)I just want them ALL to be great! And I want them all to be SAFE.

 

[MILgymFAM]

My YDD does t&t. She had her states this past weekend and there was a girl on her team who scared the crap out of me. This girl isn't a bad gymnast at all. She has her skills solid. In warm up, though, she fell OFF the trampoline twice in a row. There are always many spotters around the trampolines, but she still managed to land on the floor once. She also had a nasty fall on double mini warm ups. The coaches didn't pull her or change her routines. She ended up state champion on one event and I think 3rd on another. Had it been my kid I would have asked them to scratch her- but I can tell you that's not really a thing in t&t. I see at least one person at every single meet that makes me gasp. I don't know what I'm gonna do when my DD is a higher level, because there is definitely more of a chuck it mentality in this sport (in my experience). Just wanted to say that I feel where you are coming from. Sloppy and unsafe are totally different and unsafe is downright scary.

 

[duyetanh]

But there certainly is a difference between not having great form and actually not being able to safely complete skills in a level. Unless a child is in danger leave them alone. This is pearl clutching from the OP and this reads to me as his idea of a "kinder, gentler" version of the original post that was deleted the other day. I think it's obvious to everyone that the adults in charge of the athlete are responsible for the safety of their athlete, I'd love to see a random parent pop up out of the crowd and try to tell someone that they should scratch a kid from an event because they didn't think they were doing it well enough.

Yes. THIS.
No offense to anyone here, but really? Wasn't this thread already deleted once, and now is being masked in an attempt at being generic? Can we let the horse die now? Anyone seen the movie Frozen? "Let it go....let it go......" Nice you care, but probably better to worry about your own. There will always be things like this we will see if our children continue this sport.
And again....I am out.

 

[Jenny]

@balancedmom - I absolutely know that this kind of things happens and I am glad that things are working out well for your daughter and believe that those gymnasts are the real inspirations. In no way have I faulted the gymnast and have lauded the courage and determination displayed and applauded her performance that day - My focus has been on those who have responsibility for that gymnasts safety; however, everyone seems to miss the point of when any girl is several feet off the ground and falls down repeatedly when attempting skills that require her to be upside down - something needs to be in place for her safety - unless he was secretly the flash the coach was nowhere near close enough in the event that one of the many falls witnessed happened when her head was pointed straight down. I hace seen coaches poised and ready still not catch a gymnast because things can hapen so fast. Thankfully, no serious injury occurred - and yes it can happen to the best. This wasn't a question of form or talent - if a consist 38+ performer suddenly freezes up and starts dropping like a rock whenever they compete a skill then they are likely not safe to compete it that day- yes they need to work through it, but in a SAFE environment and work toward the goal of being able to consistently safely compete it, regarless of the score. There are tons of very talented girls who use BWO/BWO instead of BHS/BHS because they can't do the latter safely (yet) and there is nothing wrong with that.

First I would like to thank the coaches and judges who gave their qualified input based on knowledge, training, or experience to my original questions centered around "who if anyone can and should say something when they see a safety concern." I would also like to thank those that provided anecdotal experiences of when safety issues have been addressed as well as those that have provided their opinions on the overall situation.

This situation and thread has been very enlightening in a number of different ways:

• I am glad to see that there are so many that rush to protect the heart of anonymous athletes, compassion for others is something that the world needs more of - I am concerned however at how many would protect the heart from the concerns of a bystander that they will in all likelihood never even know had any concern in the first place, at the potential expense of significant injury, not to mention the potential for emotional injury when its human nature to compare yourself to others - and by design the scoring system encourages it. If this or any other athlete is able to compartmentalize and competes against themselves that is awesome and they will be much stronger and mindful people well beyond gymnastics.
• I also find it interesting that so many people accept that just because some gym puts a "staff" shirt on somebody and had them take the online U100 class, that they are infallible and that they don't have bad days either - there are plenty of threads on this forum about coaches that are less qualified to outright dangerous - including a recent one referencing drug abuse issues. I am not sayin g this coach is a horrible human being or incompetent, but I have seen plenty of coaches prepared to spot a skill that went far more smoothly in both warm up and competition - simply because they were safety minded, not because they didn't know or trust their gymnast - but so their gymnast could trust them to be there in case the worst happens. This day , with this athlete, on this event, my opinion is that the coach wasn't safety minded - a simple spot may have changed my entire feeling of the situation.

The blindness and in some cases hypocrisy of some posters who did not share my experience and were most likely not present to witness what I did to:

• With no knowledge of my complete background or history with gymnastics to assume I don't have enough knowledge or experience to tell the difference between sloppy and unsafe. Did her tuck on floor have enough amplitude for her to land on something other than her butt, no - but she had enough rotation that I was never concerned that she would tweak her neck landing on it instead... sloppy, but safe. Did her arms bend so much that her head tapped the table on all but one warm-up, but still did on both competing passes, sure did, but it wasn't hard enough that I was worried she might cause serious injury. Was her split jump on beam well under 180, you betcha, did she wobble and fall, absolutely - was I worried that she was unsafe, not at all - I've seen that kind of things so many times I can't count. What I saw for this gymnast, this day on bars was a different animal altogether. Were there other gymnasts with worse form and polish on some skills, YES, did I have a some level of fear for them, sure - did I think they were unsafe, no.
• Assume that there is no possible way that what this gymnast was doing was actually unsafe and the only reason the judges didn't say something is because they weren't there until it was time to compete - when it was too late. Side question, has anyone ever seen an optionals judge stop someone mid routine for safety concerns?
• With no knowledge of me or my history assume that just because I call out a concern about the safety of an individual performance that I look down on them or think they are undeserving or that I or DD is somehow better than them. Interestingly enough in those assumptions you actively demonstrate they very trait you imply I embody.
• Assume that just because any gymnast managed to get a 31AA on her last level that she is ready to SAFELY compete skills at the next (That is the USAG requirement for advancement as near as I can tell, not a commentary on any gymnasts score). Especially if injury or emotional distress is involved - these are the times I am MOST worried about for DD and any other gymnast - if you can't focus on something that has the potential to paralyze you then you should wait until you can focus. It isn't until the higher levels where specialization is allowed that 8.5 minimums are required. But putting a score requirement like that would thin the ranks of the sport overall way too much. This puts much more onus on parents and coaches to mindfully advance (or hold back) gymnasts to ensure safety.
• Recognize the concept of relative safety. Flinging your body around an inch and half of maple laminated fiberglass several feet off the ground is inherently unsafe even with perfect technique, plenty of training, and safety equipment. My point is that someone who is having significant struggle - regardless of the reason, is less safe - and when they actively demonstrate an inability to not only complete a skill, but to recover or exit properly, they should have some form of intervention... whether its a spot, removal of skill, or scratch. I would have the same concern if I saw this happen at a gym practice - the meet and the scoring is not the point - it was the disregard for safety regardless of venue.

But hey this is the internet, so it happens - I choose to believe that everyone here is a good person, that saw a topic that struck a nerve and they responded with open and honest feedback, I am not the kind of person who would dismiss the feelings others have about a situation - I'm not in anyone's head and won't make snap judgements. I also don't begrudge anyone their opinions and respect the ideas and possible explanations everyone has made. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same way. It is my opinion that there is never a good reason to place someone in a potentially dangerous situation without any extra safety precautions just so they can prove something to themselves or others (unless of course its 1996 Kerri Strugg and Olympic victory is at hand ).

Have you ever met a guy called Stretchsportsguy? Just wondered....

 

[Deleted member 18037]

With no knowledge of my complete background or history with gymnastics to assume I don't have enough knowledge or experience to tell the difference between sloppy and unsafe. Did her tuck on floor have enough amplitude for her to land on something other than her butt, no - but she had enough rotation that I was never concerned that she would tweak her neck landing on it instead... sloppy, but safe. Did her arms bend so much that her head tapped the table on all but one warm-up, but still did on both competing passes, sure did, but it wasn't hard enough that I was worried she might cause serious injury. Was her split jump on beam well under 180, you betcha, did she wobble and fall, absolutely - was I worried that she was unsafe, not at all - I've seen that kind of things so many times I can't count. What I saw for this gymnast, this day on bars was a different animal altogether. Were there other gymnasts with worse form and polish on some skills, YES, did I have a some level of fear for them, sure - did I think they were unsafe, no.

• Assume that there is no possible way that what this gymnast was doing was actually unsafe and the only reason the judges didn't say something is because they weren't there until it was time to compete - when it was too late. Side question, has anyone ever seen an optionals judge stop someone mid routine for safety concerns?
• With no knowledge of me or my history assume that just because I call out a concern about the safety of an individual performance that I look down on them or think they are undeserving or that I or DD is somehow better than them. Interestingly enough in those assumptions you actively demonstrate they very trait you imply I embody.
• Assume that just because any gymnast managed to get a 31AA on her last level that she is ready to SAFELY compete skills at the next (That is the USAG requirement for advancement as near as I can tell, not a commentary on any gymnasts score). Especially if injury or emotional distress is involved - these are the times I am MOST worried about for DD and any other gymnast - if you can't focus on something that has the potential to paralyze you then you should wait until you can focus. It isn't until the higher levels where specialization is allowed that 8.5 minimums are required. But putting a score requirement like that would thin the ranks of the sport overall way too much. This puts much more onus on parents and coaches to mindfully advance (or hold back) gymnasts to ensure safety.
• Recognize the concept of relative safety. Flinging your body around an inch and half of maple laminated fiberglass several feet off the ground is inherently unsafe even with perfect technique, plenty of training, and safety equipment. My point is that someone who is having significant struggle - regardless of the reason, is less safe - and when they actively demonstrate an inability to not only complete a skill, but to recover or exit properly, they should have some form of intervention... whether its a spot, removal of skill, or scratch. I would have the same concern if I saw this happen at a gym practice - the meet and the scoring is not the point - it was the disregard for safety regardless of venue.

Everyone here gets how dangerous this sport can be. Nor did anyone say the child was safe for sure. We weren't there. And the view from the stands is different from the floor. Where other coaches were as well. The view is different. And its just hard to keep it just to safety concerns when you spend so much time dwelling on scores and low performers (in your eyes) across multiple threads.

There really is no assumption about your looking down on low scores. You repeatedly bring it up. You repeatedly try to correlate low scores with safety. And that is simply not always the case. It could be but not necessarily. But when you say things like yeah her score took a .4 dip after and injury, it is rather clear you have a talented kid. And a ton of kids fight back for whole points after a injury/block. Your idea of a bad day is an 8.8 for your kid. My kid doesn't get many 8s either (but I know they are going to come). The difference between us though you really think an 8.8 is bad. I realize we are fortunate that my kid has not yet faced an injury or block and has some talent. And I know scores are relative. But I know a ton of kids would be thrilled to score 8.8s and know it is a good score, especially as those level numbers go up. Because 8,9 and 10 are a whole different beast. And when I see kids in her gym fight like heck for a sloppy kip, and we all root for her to hold her squat on, one who spent much of her season with less then 7s on bars. I never wondered if she was qualified for states. She did and she was. You think that kid shouldn't be at states and is perhaps unsafe and her coaches are putting her safety at risk. She is safe and her coaches would not allow her do something unsafe.

And you drill down to is the regional cut off done properly, in multitple states. Dipping into the scores to a statistical level that I use to set up my quality control testing in the laboratory. Busy looking up individuals scores to see if they are really up to snuff.

Can't speak for everyone but no there was no assumption about how you feel up what you deem are low performers. So it really is hard to separate your safety concern point from your general feeling that those low scoring kids just shouldn't be there. .

And again, just me, but its a little bit obsessive how much detail you can recall and how much time you spent on this one kid (who was not yours) at what must have been a huge meet. I just have this vision of you looking up her scores at the meet. And as a parent it makes me uncomfortable.

 

[wandrewsjr]

This thread seems to have devolved to attacking someone personally, to the point of comparing him/her negatively to others and digging through all this posters previous threads. THAT makes me uncomfortable, and is one of the things that has driven me away from chalk bucket from time to time over the past 7 years.

 

[skschlag]

I agree ^^^^

Can't we assume good intentions and not attack people? Seriously. I don't mind a good debate, discussion, disagreement even, but this isn't that. Let it go.

 

[NutterButter]

This thread seems to have devolved to attacking someone personally, to the point of comparing him/her negatively to others and digging through all this posters previous threads. THAT makes me uncomfortable, and is one of the things that has driven me away from chalk bucket from time to time over the past 7 years.

I agree. In some discussion boards you can't bring together and reference unrelated topic threads. It's getting old.

 

[GymDad9.9]

This thread seems to have devolved to attacking someone personally, to the point of comparing him/her negatively to others and digging through all this posters previous threads. THAT makes me uncomfortable, and is one of the things that has driven me away from chalk bucket from time to time over the past 7 years.

Seems a bit obsessive in its own right.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I watched a girl hit her head 3 times in warm ups on her vault (tsuk) . She would hit it on the vault as she flipped around. The coach kept sending her back to do it again. FInally, the judge stepped in and stopped it. It was bad. the one time she did not hit her head she nearly landed on it.

Those are the kid of "scary skills" I worry about.

This is the exact reason why judges have the authority to pull skills from a routine or vaults if they feel they are unsafe.

Just having this proviso also puts pressure on coaches not to bring scary stuff.

 

[trampolinemom]

This is the exact reason why judges have the authority to pull skills from a routine or vaults if they feel they are unsafe.

Just having this proviso also puts pressure on coaches not to bring scary stuff.

I think that is a good safety net and other people present at meets should not intervene with it although in an ultimate case parents of course should. I thought about intervening once when DS (trampolinist) was in a two day meet and at the end of the first day (about 8.30 pm already) training was scheduled before dinner and bedtime. DS (then 8 yo) just couldn't stand on his feet anymore so training (especially without food first) could be downright dangerous and definitely not productive. Fortunately the coach thought so too, so it was dinner and bedtime for the little ones instead without me having to intervene.

 

[B.Gold]

I had a moment at a meet this season where my dd's FX warm ups were sooo scary. One tumbling pass was worse than the next. People around me in the stands were mortified. Her body had chosen that moment to "forget" her front-full that, until that moment had been very consistent. She had gotten lost in the air and nearly landed on her head. She did not land one pass during warmups. My butt actually came up off the bleacher to ask her coaches to scratch her. It was a very conflicted moment for me. I was very afraid for her safety. The coaches changed her tumbling pass at the very last minute, but she still wasn't landing any.

But then...She went on to compete the best FX of her season, she earned first place on floor with a personal best for L9... Go figure.