WAG Why the Continual Push to make the Upper Levels Harder?

[duyetanh]

Doesn't this continue into college? Don't girls just maintain their skills rather than picking up new ones?

Depends on the college.

 

[Aussie_coach]

It can, but we don’t really want kids hitting the ceiling at 12 or 13.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

As a coach that used to be on the men’s side, the “up to level” and composition deductions still drive me nuts. I don’t get the point of saying it’s a 10.0 start (but not really). If something is needed to fulfill those requirements, then say it’s a 9.9.
As a competitor in the era of the end of the 10.0, they did a 9.0 start for boys. That required a “D”, 2 “C”s, 3 “B”s and 4 “A”s. Every extra “D” was .1, a “C+C” was .1, “D+C” was the .1 for the “D” and .2 connection. I’m sure there was more that I’m forgetting. They also had a stick bonus (which still pops up from time to time) and the “Mr. Clean” bonus for having less than .5 in execution.
It was a great way of separating athletes and encouraging good execution as well as difficulty.
The problem is that people have have to get used to getting lower scores. 36s would probably win. I’m not sure that a terrible thing.

 

[my4buffaloes]

As a coach that used to be on the men’s side, the “up to level” and composition deductions still drive me nuts. I don’t get the point of saying it’s a 10.0 start (but not really). If something is needed to fulfill those requirements, then say it’s a 9.9.
As a competitor in the era of the end of the 10.0, they did a 9.0 start for boys. That required a “D”, 2 “C”s, 3 “B”s and 4 “A”s. Every extra “D” was .1, a “C+C” was .1, “D+C” was the .1 for the “D” and .2 connection. I’m sure there was more that I’m forgetting. They also had a stick bonus (which still pops up from time to time) and the “Mr. Clean” bonus for having less than .5 in execution.
It was a great way of separating athletes and encouraging good execution as well as difficulty.
The problem is that people have have to get used to getting lower scores. 36s would probably win. I’m not sure that a terrible thing.

I agree, the up to level deduction drives me crazy too. Last year at level 9 my dd had more bonus than she needed to reach a 10 SV and the coaches still felt like she was getting up to level deductions. When looking at her possible level 10 routines she would have a 10 SV on her events (if everything was connected like planned) yet she and the coaches both say she will get "killed in up to level deductions". I just don't understand that - if she has the skills and bonuses to get from a 9.5 to a 10 SV how is it not up to level? So confusing!

 

[3rd_time_around]

I agree, the up to level deduction drives me crazy too. Last year at level 9 my dd had more bonus than she needed to reach a 10 SV and the coaches still felt like she was getting up to level deductions. When looking at her possible level 10 routines she would have a 10 SV on her events (if everything was connected like planned) yet she and the coaches both say she will get "killed in up to level deductions". I just don't understand that - if she has the skills and bonuses to get from a 9.5 to a 10 SV how is it not up to level? So confusing!

Up to level deductions are at the most .2. There are relatively few level 10s who will be/are so severely lacking in skills that they would get the entire .2 on each section. It will be an interesting year, though!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Up to level deductions are at the most .2. There are relatively few level 10s who will be/are so severely lacking in skills that they would get the entire .2 on each section. It will be an interesting year, though!

This is our first year in a level (8) with up to level deductions. I really think it is a coaching thing and how they stress it.

Our coach has said previously (with another coach, involved) there was much stress about getting hit with the up to level deduction. The more current philosphy of the gym is to get them in the level and performing the skills they can well. And I'm very glad about that. They would rather they do the higher level and do what they can well and take the hit for not up to level. As they get the skills that will get them up to level they will do them. So on beam not all are doing BHS BHS. We have some doing BWO BHS. The coach knows they will take the not up level hit, but everything else is in place. So they all have the potential to score well. No reason they should stay L7 over this. As the season goes on, the plan is for them to get and do the BHS BHS.

I think a lot of the time its a gym/coaching philosphy thing.

 

[MILgymFAM]

This is our first year in a level (8) with up to level deductions. I really think it is a coaching thing and how they stress it.

Our coach has said previously (with another coach, involved) there was much stress about getting hit with the up to level deduction. The more current philosphy of the gym is to get them in the level and performing the skills they can well. And I'm very glad about that. They would rather they do the higher level and do what they can well and take the hit for not up to level. As they get the skills that will get them up to level they will do them. So on beam not all are doing BHS BHS. We have some doing BWO BHS. The coach knows they will take the not up level hit, but everything else is in place. So they all have the potential to score well. No reason they should stay L7 over this. As the season goes on, the plan is for them to get and do the BHS BHS.

I think a lot of the time its a gym/coaching philosphy thing.

I agree it’s a philosophy thing (and my DD’s gym shares one with your gym), but also that meeting all the requirements of the level is by definition up to level and it should all be handled differently. Maybe bonuses? Up to 0.2 per event is a pretty large amount when a tenth can be a huge difference in results.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I agree it’s a philosophy thing (and my DD’s gym shares one with your gym), but also that meeting all the requirements of the level is by definition up to level and it should all be handled differently. Maybe bonuses? Up to 0.2 per event is a pretty large amount when a tenth can be a huge difference in results.

Thinking out loud. Doesn't it all (or shouldn't it) work out the same. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

The skill considered more difficult or expected of the level gets the reward.

So (and Im using L8 because it is currently my only experience)

2 girls do the same routine equally well, with one difference. Beam score is say 9.4.

In the up to level situation its one girl does BHS BHS, so score stays 9.4. Other does BWO BHS, so score goes to 9.2 BHS BHS scores higher

In a bonus/points for degree of difficulty situation

The BHS BHS score becomes 9.6, the BWO BHS stays 9.4. The BHS BHS scores higher.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Just an FYI, up to level/choice of elements composition deductions are 0.5 on each event(at level 10). So it is almost exactly as Hollowarchkick describes when the boys used the 10.0 system(at least at girls level 10). 9.5 start value, 0.5 gained from bonus, 0.5 can be subtracted for up to level deductions. Essentially 9.0 sv if special requirements met, 0.5 gained from bonus, 0.5 gained from up to level difficulty(D/E flights and acro, C dance, D/E dismounts, etc). We are just counting down from 10 instead of up from 9.5. I agree the men's system sounds clearer, though we end up at essentially the same place.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Thinking out loud. Doesn't it all (or shouldn't it) work out the same. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

The skill considered more difficult or expected of the level gets the reward.

So (and Im using L8 because it is currently my only experience)

2 girls do the same routine equally well, with one difference. Beam score is say 9.4.

In the up to level situation its one girl does BHS BHS, so score stays 9.4. Other does BWO BHS, so score goes to 9.2 BHS BHS scores higher

In a bonus/points for degree of difficulty situation

The BHS BHS score becomes 9.6, the BWO BHS stays 9.4. The BHS BHS scores higher.

I see what your saying but I think it’s a matter of perception and tone, and it’s an important distinction. Especially with the way many gyms handle move ups, the deductions as they stand will keep girls from moving up, where perhaps a bonus would not. I’m also of the mind of it is what it is- ie if xyz and abc both meet the requirements for the level, then they *should* be scored the same. Sometimes doing harder skills doesn’t mean you’ll win, and that kinda makes sense in gymnastics where what they’re chasing is the perfection of the moves they’re doing. Harder skills? Move up.. it would be nice if there was an open above L10, though. All the differentiation that’s going on functionally takes much of the options out of optionals. My DD may compete a dive cartwheel round off- hey it’s a B/B flight combo- but most gyms will hone in on that BHS BHS like it’s the holy grail.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Here are some basics:
Level 8 - 10 sv from special requirements
Level 9 - 9.7 sv from special requirements, 0.3 gained from cv bonus
Level 10 - 9.5 sv from special requirements, 0.5 gained from dv/cv bonus

Up to level Composition deductions(these are all "up to" deductions)
UB - 0.2 choice of releases(level 10 only)/0.2 choice of elements(level 9/10 only)/0.1 dismount
BB - 0.2 acro/0.2 dance/0.1 dismount
FX - 0.2 acro/0.2 dance/0.1 dismount(last salto)

Glossary
sv - start value
dv - difficulty value, gained from individual difficult skills
cv - connection value, gained from connecting skills
bonus - individual D skills are 0.1 bonus, E skills 0.2 at level 10. Connection bonuses are either 0.1 or 0.2 based on the difficulty of the elements in the connection.
"up to" - deduction can range up to that number based on how much of it is met

There are more composition deductions on the events, like at level 10 can't do more than one squat on(0.1), or that two bar changes is a 0.5 special requirement at level 9 but a 0.2 composition deduction at level 10, etc, etc. I know it all sounds clear as mud. But I am hopeful that the new codification of up to level deductions and the clear cut examples of each deduction(what is 0.05, what is 0.15 etc) will at least make the mud more consistent across meets and throughout the season.

 

[wandrewsjr]

I see what your saying but I think it’s a matter of perception and tone, and it’s an important distinction. Especially with the way many gyms handle move ups, the deductions as they stand will keep girls from moving up, where perhaps a bonus would not. I’m also of the mind of it is what it is- ie if xyz and abc both meet the requirements for the level, then they *should* be scored the same. Sometimes doing harder skills doesn’t mean you’ll win, and that kinda makes sense in gymnastics where what they’re chasing is the perfection of the moves they’re doing. Harder skills? Move up.. it would be nice if there was an open above L10, though. All the differentiation that’s going on functionally takes much of the options out of optionals. My DD may compete a dive cartwheel round off- hey it’s a B/B flight combo- but most gyms will hone in on that BHS BHS like it’s the holy grail.

The dive cartwheel and round off are just fine, composition-ally. When done well they are beautiful and just as progressive and difficult as BHS. The issue with these skills is usually one of execution - not enough flight on the dive cartwheel, round off does not go over the top or is piked down, etc. I could probably count on one hand the number of dive cartwheels I have seen done really well.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The dive cartwheel and round off are just fine, composition-ally. When done well they are beautiful and just as progressive and difficult as BHS. The issue with these skills is usually one of execution - not enough flight on the dive cartwheel, round off does not go over the top or is piked down, etc. I could probably count on one hand the number of dive cartwheels I have seen done really well.

Thats what our coach said. there are other options from BHS BHS, but must be done really well or lots of deductions.

And thanks for the addtional info