Coaches Why train/compete/require these skills?

[MissBear]

This is 2 questions really.
British Grade 13 beam set dismount is a round off from the beam (hands on beam, feet to floor). As I understand, a round off should finish off balance leaning backwards, to accellerate into the next movement. On floor for the same grade the round off goes straight into a backwards roll, which allows the correct technique. But I can't understand how it is possible to perform a round off from beam with anything near the correct technique and not fall on your bum/back.
Could this be meant as a drill for something else that I am not getting? Is there intended to be a seperate technique for this skill?
There are two possible grades following this one, with beam dismounts as free round-off for one and front tuck for the other.

Second question:
This year I have seen a lot of upstarts (kips) trained in succession. Not kip cast handstand kip, but just a push away between each kip. The swing down position for another kip without a cast (body remains piked or opens to straight with shoulder angle opening to push away) seems to me to be completely different to the correct straight body with shoulder angle, then piked hips to the float.
In fact, typing this now it seems the kip push away would actively discourage the correct shoulders and feet on the other side of the bar position for casting out of a kip.

Coaches, do you use either of these drills/skills? In what circumstances would you use them? Can you think of any way in which they may be helpful?
Thanks.

 

[gymnut1]

1st question - yes it is a silly dismount. I can't see any benefit to it anywhere. But I hate the r off back roll thing too. It should be a r off BHS. Grade 13 is totally silly really.

I can however see the benefit of doing series of kips. I agree with what you say though it is the opposite shaping really from a correct Kip cast handstand. I can see a series helping with stamina on bars, a lead in to kip, clear hip (not to h stand) into drop kip. Maybe as a progression into kip cast handstand swing down into kip cast handstand series. It probably also helps with confidence. Those come to mind but technically there may be other things. I'm someone else will tell us.

 

[bogwoppit]

We also have the round off dismount from beam, it is such a waste. TO spend so much time perfecting a stuck landing when they will never want to perform it that way for anything else.

 

[gymdog]

I think RO dismount can be a good introduction just to get them used to kicking up and falling. Actually that's essentially what our compulsory dismounts are in the US, just a little slower and not off the end (handstand 1/4 turn). I think the hard thing in designing routines for this level is there's just not a lot of dismounts they're suited for. Jump off is a little easy, but flip off is a little hard. You have to find some way and teach control. I think kids should be able to adjust between a RO off beam and RO on the floor, personally. I remember doing RO dismounts when I was a kid and I don't think it stopped me from learning correct RO on the floor.

Kips in a row. Well most kids start doing a free hip not to handstand anyway, so I prefer to teach push away kips from just a pushaway. As they get used to it their control gets better and they can go for higher. Nothing has helped my L5 group more than doing kips in a row. I was heavily spotting at first but it was worth it even with the spot because they were getting so many reps with attention, building endurance, and more importantly learning to adjust and control. I started them doing 5 pushaway kips with spot, squat on, jump to high bar and long hang kip.

I think sometimes we get caught up and it's all like oh no, if we introduce this movement, they might not understand! I think this can be legitimate and we should try to differentiate between techniques but we can't be paralyzed by fear that if we try different things with them they are going to lose all their skills. In fact I think this can detract from their ability because it doesn't build as great a library of movement and they are not learning to control, differentiate, have body awareness in different shapes, positions, from different heights. When we talk about "basics" some of that is like, super sub basics. When you're doing a "roundoff" off the beam, you're learning to control your body dropping from a height while still kicking straight over the top with good alignment. If they don't know how to do this, any time they invert on beam they won't be as confident and controlled. I do introduce this skill myself around level 3.

People are always complaining, mill circle on beam, doesn't lead up to anything. So what? It teaches them to control their body in a circling skill (and I believe this is one of the hardest skills for girls to learn), hold tight legs, finish pushed up, etc. They really need to do skills like this. I have noticed a trend away from it in gymnastics actually, when I was a kid they let you do all kinds of stuff and no one cared if it led up to anything and if it messed you up the basic reaction would be "think harder!" I do think in part this is motivated by liability, I do it myself - penny drops? I worry. Yeah, teaching them penny drops is more risky than front roll down off the bar, so I hesistate. But those were so fun! and when they let you do it hanging from the high bar and catching the low bar! I had some foolish coaches. I would never let a little kid do that. But, I try to keep some perspective and not get so caught up in "oh no! If i teach them press to headstand WILL THEY FORGET HOW TO DO A HANDSTAND?" Silly example, but you see what I mean. if they really can't differentiate then it's something we need to address and learn. Harder skills require even more adjustment and differentiation - you don't flip your timer the same way you double.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Actually I think the round off to a backward roll sounds like a big problem. Gymnasts should be training to rebound out of a round off. Wouldn't the backward roll kill the rebound?

The round off dismount from beam is probably as gymdog says, a dismount thats harder than a jump off and easier than a flip off, to cover the middle ground. Also just a way of getting them used to being the feeling of the move to lead into cartwheels on the beam.

I'm not sure what stage Grade 13 is, but it sounds like our level 4. Here in Australia our beam dismount for level 4 is a run to a punch straight jump off the beam. It may seem simple but it is a lead up to a Front tuck. In level 5 they have the choice of either e front tuck dismount, or a cartwheel to land at the end of the beam and straight jump off backwards.

 

[bogwoppit]

Aussie, we used to do the same dismount off beam for our L3/L4, three running steps and then a punch straight jump. I always thought it was way better than the round off. At the next level the girls can do an aerial, or an A salto. I guess the ro would be a lead up to the aerial.

 

[gymdog]

Actually I think the round off to a backward roll sounds like a big problem. Gymnasts should be training to rebound out of a round off. Wouldn't the backward roll kill the rebound?.

I noticed that too, I guess it gets them to used to going backwards but it seems to me like there would be a lot of piking and possibly putting the hands down. BUT THEN AGAIN - I distinctly remember doing RO backward roll, RO back extension as a little kid with my very good former Soviet coach who was coached by Bela Karolyi. So whatever. I can do a RO BHS. Maybe it's not the most efficient way to teach, but again, I tend to think as long as they're not doing the shapes wrong (even if they aren't using their full power) when they're ready to do RO BHS you can teach them. So the possibility for closing the legs early and piking down to lead with the bottom into the back roll would concern me the most. But just doing reasonably good shapes slowed down, eh, not going to get all worked up. I have my kids doing RO from their knee to hollow flat hip stand which is not using all their power. You work the power drills alongside, they learn to think and control to use the appropriate power for what they're performing. Which is what they'll do, for example, when they are doing isolated RO to stick on the beam vs a beam RO dismount. I would do those two things differently.

 

[MissBear]

Thanks for the explainations, they were helpful. I think I understand the idea of the beam dismount. Yes - the grade before has a punch straight jump dismount.
In addition, I checked my trusty grades book, and the wording for floor is '...round off immediate straight jump into backward roll...' so I believe the intention is a rebound jump to land off balance, into the roll.

I'm still not convinved for the kips, but our gym has a very strict policy on correct kip shaping. It is probably just one of those personal preferance things, where coaches go different ways and in a years time the kips are beautiful from both sides! I would say the clear hip is irrelevant, as the shaping should be the same as from a handstand even if it wasn't there - it the body is straight shoulder to toe you then need to pike at the hips.Kip cast to horizontal, kip would prepare gymnasts for that action.

Gymnut - I have to disagree there. I think that would exclude too many gymnasts who aren't doing other comps with more difficult skills, but have a go at grades. For a smaller club and/or gymnasts who go less hours the BHS is not something the gymnasts will have. Also, then there would be no tumbling upgrade to grade 12.

Gymdog - thanks, really helpful response. I have to ask - what is a penny drop?

Aussie-coach: It's complicated. Grade 13 is for all competitive gymnasts who turn 9 that year (and out of age for older gymnasts), apart from the few who show exceptional talent and do compulsory grades. The gymnasts doing this grade range from those who compete voluntary comps with RO BHS BT and have kips and handspring vaults, to those who have only competed floor and vault before, and struggle with the leg lifts and chins in the bar routine. After grade 13 these gymnasts divide further to national club grades and regional club grades.

Thanks everyone.

 

[gymdog]

.Kip cast to horizontal, kip would prepare gymnasts for that action.

Oh, whoops, I assumed that's what I was talking about. That's what I have them do - i support them from the thighs in clear support away from the bar (we hold there when first learning, in order to establish the correct support shape) and then go into the kip with toes leading. The lead up for this is to stand on a box behind the bar (hips elevated, arms straight in front, head in) and "slide" off the box into the kip with toes in front. If they go for the push away kips and they are small enough to get sloppy and not keeping the feet in front (or bending the legs, etc) then we go back to me stopping them in clear support before they kip. I don't think it should be sloppy, legs bent behind, maybe the first time they try it I might be a little more lax but if they continue to not use the correct positions (this is after they have a correct glide kip) then I want to go back. However I do think the push away kips are an important step and facilitate the learning process from circling skills and handstands, and build endurance before the gymnast is able to do kips with high casts in a series.

Gymdog - thanks, really helpful response. I have to ask - what is a penny drop?

When you swing on the bars upside down from your knees and then at the top of the swing with the chest up straighten the legs so you flip off the bar. As you can imagine, when you're 6-8 this is probably the coolest thing ever you can possibly, especially if your coaches at the high school camp decide you can do this from the high bar facing the low bar and then catch it as you flip (baby pak salto?)

I was only halfway kidding about not letting the kids do it, I've been letting the team kids do it. I just wouldn't do it in classes but I recall doing it pretty young. I also wouldn't let beginners do it face first towards another bar, but granted I was a pretty strong kid relatively, so I don't think they were letting everyone in the camp do it. Come to think of it it's not a bad drill for the catch and kip out of the pak salto...but it would be a pain to get modern AAI bars close enough.

 

[Aussie_coach]

MissBear I have heard of other places and countries where the youngsters have only competed floor and vault. Is this common? Does it cause issue's later when they begin bars and beam?

 

[marie83]

MissBear I have heard of other places and countries where the youngsters have only competed floor and vault. Is this common? Does it cause issue's later when they begin bars and beam?

I think the idea of the floor and vault competitions is to give ALL gymnasts the opportunity to compete. Women's Artistic is not an option for everyone and still a lot of clubs here don't have specialist equipment.
I used to run a gym club where we had a few mats, 2 benches and a box type vault. For these floor and vault competitions, that is all you need! The floor routines tend to be set out in a straight line and I believe the gymnasts still use the box vault.

However there are also 'novice' competitions which in my region are strictly for gymnasts who don't also compete women's artistic. These competitions include all 4 apparatus.

To answer the question 'does is cause difficulties when they begin bars or beam later', I don't think so as they can still train bars and beam, just not compete it. I have some weeny 5 yr olds who could easily compete floor and vault just now, but would struggle on beam (just not used to it enough yet) and bars unless they were simplified right down!

I'm sure MissBear will have some answers too, but that is just my input

 

[gymnut1]

Floor and vault is also a great way to get rec girls into competing even if they start at an older age and have limited training hours. Local school competitions tend to be floor and vault as schools have the equipment for this. Floor and vault can also lead into team gym which is popular in the UK.

 

[MissBear]

Disclaimer; May be only representative of my region in the UK.

Floor and Vault is used in one of two ways:

1. A way for gymnasts to experience 'competitive' gymnastics without the long training hours or expensive equiptment. This may be from schools, very small clubs such as marie83's or from a larger club which has a specific floor and vault team who only train on floor and vault. These gymnasts usually do not train bars or beam and are usually fairly low level gymnasts.

2. An introduction to competing, audience and judges for the younger gymnasts. In the UK we do not have set skills in the routines for most competition. Instead, each level has requirements, for example, 6 As, 2 Bs.

But what all this means is that it takes longer for a gymnast to be ready to compete a full routine. If you think of the USAG level 4 beam routine, I can count 4 skills that would count here. So while training all 4 pieces, gymnasts aged 6-8 may compete Floor and Vault to get used to learning a routine, being nervous and having everybody watching. Floor and Vault usually has lower levels of competition to make it more accessible. For example, at Pre-novice Age 6 or 7 (and 8 maybe, can't remember) you may compete Squat on, jump off vault, Straddle on, jump off, Squat through, Straddle over, or Handspring, all on the old vault.

I hope that makes sense! Most Floor and Vault comps in my region have exclusions, like you cannot compete Pre-novice if you have competed 4 piece, you cannot compete Novice if you have passed grade x or competed 4 piece at level z.
It works well here.