Parents "A" Team and "B" Team at same gym

[Really]

I was just curious if anyone else's gym does this and why the practice might be helpful from a coach's perspective. Dd attends a large gym and they break kids into two different ability-based groups that train together and then compete together. So it ends up with one rotation's worth of girls bringing in the high scores, and the other ones not so much. DD doesn't seem bothered by it. She's been in the "higher" scoring group for most of the time, but it didn't bother her even when her coach had her in the "lower" training group last year (she moved up to the other one when she was getting higher scores at meets). She was just happy to be in the gym doing gymnastics. It seems to bother the parents at the gym a lot, however, and sets off the crazier ones as their kids move up to higher levels and might move to the "B" team when last year they were on the "A" team. It has seriously been toxic in the waiting area as the moms grouse about how unfair it is that their gymnast is not being treated with the preferential treatment (more attentive coaching, more perceived opportunities to uptrain) that they were treated with in lower levels. So my question is, why don't the coaches place girls in mixed-ability groups, at least for the competitions? It seems like this set-up makes parents crazier than they would be otherwise...

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I suggest, not staying in the waiting room.

 

[munchkin3]

Ours does this.....Parents do get upset but it is very common for the kids to move back and forth. The coaches are pretty honest and will tell the parents they were moved due to skill, A or B....etc. Once they get the skill back, they can move back.....then this can also cause the parents to badger their kids to 'get' the skill.
Our groups all get very good attention. Sometimes I could even say the A team gets less attention because they are expected to be more self motivating, and need less help.....
But yes, this can cause all kinds of issues for some parents. The kids don't really care.

 

[Really]

I suggest, not staying in the waiting room.

Believe me, I try! But this week I made the mistake of a.) watching practice and b.) waving and saying hi to a group of moms as soon as I came in, so then I was drawn into the conversation and about 6 minutes into it I was all like, "OMG, what have I gotten myself into and how do I escape this situation gracefully!!!"

 

[Deleted member 18037]

It seems like this set-up makes parents crazier than they would be otherwise...

The crazy parents will always find something to be crazy about. If not this it would be what order the kids are going on a rotation. Or why is Suzy in the third line for conditioning instead of the first. Or why is Jane getting an extra vault. Or why is the coach talking to Suzy more. Or less.

It.Will.Always.Be.Something. For a crazy parent, and folks will get on the crazy bus with them.

 

[MomIdidit!]

I've learned to try to separate from the crazy as hard as it may be. Believe me.....the coaches know who the crazy parents are and its best to avoid them!!!!

 

[MuggleMom]

We don't have an A group and a B group but we have two different sets of hours within the same level. The higher hour girls score better, but they are also older and they have been on team longer. The progression seems to be first year less hours (and less success but that's understandable) second year more hours more success then ideally you move up. After they get out of compulsories its less obvious breakdowns they all train together and their skill level determines the level they compete at. Their are some complaints about what they have the less hour girls working on but I think the gym looks at it like they have another year at this level anyway so there is no rush. From that perspective its a bit frustrating but if you can wait this part out it gets better.

I tend to laugh about the crazy people with my normal friends when I get home. I bring a book to practice and only occasionally listen in on other conversations, its like a soap opera out there!

 

[Really]

Yes, the crazies are crazy and should be avoided. But... why do the coaches do the ability groups at all? I ask because I am an elementary teacher besides a gym mom, and the research shows that academic ability grouping is bad for kids. So to me what the gym coaches are doing seems to create a toxic culture that is detrimental to kids in the long run. I mean, I guess no research has been done on this in a gymnastics setting but to me it does create an unpleasant environment that is contrary to what I know as a teacher is best for kids.

 

[Gymmommy71]

If you seperate kids working on the same level into an A and B group, and then give the A group more hours and more intense training, but then compete them all together against each other at the same meets, I'd be more surprised if you DIDN'T have parent drama - and this is regardless of if parents watch or not.

A vs B groupings among similarly skilled/aged kids will cause drama, resentment and angry parents in pretty much any type of activity/situation. Unless someone outright asks for their kid to be put in a less intense training situation cause of other activities, family needs, etc. who would want their kid to get "lesser training"? And of course people are going to try and monitor that things truly are equal between the two groups if that's what the gym promised the B parents.

 

[Committed]

Yes, the crazies are crazy and should be avoided. But... why do the coaches do the ability groups at all? I ask because I am an elementary teacher besides a gym mom, and the research shows that academic ability grouping is bad for kids. So to me what the gym coaches are doing seems to create a toxic culture that is detrimental to kids in the long run. I mean, I guess no research has been done on this in a gymnastics setting but to me it does create an unpleasant environment that is contrary to what I know as a teacher is best for kids.

I'm a teacher myself, and I disagree with your notion that ability grouping is bad for kids (for gym and school). Why the big push for differentiation?

What I'm hearing is that everyone is equipped with the same abilities and should be trained exactly the same and will have the same outcomes.
In reality, this can stress those with lower-ability (who need more repetition) and frustrate/stagnate those with higher ability (who need little repetition).

In school, kids are ability grouped in reading, math, intervention, RSP, SDC, high achievers, GATE, etc.
In gym, kids are grouped age, level, speed of skill acquisition, homeschool, TOPs, HOPES, elite, etc.

Now, I'm certainly no gym expert, and I wouldn't like teams to be considered A group & B group (there's a connotation there). However, I definitely see a need for differentiation.

 

[e'smum]

Believe me, I try! But this week I made the mistake of a.) watching practice and b.) waving and saying hi to a group of moms as soon as I came in, so then I was drawn into the conversation and about 6 minutes into it I was all like, "OMG, what have I gotten myself into and how do I escape this situation gracefully!!!"

you try to be nice and look where it got you!

 

[Gymmommy71]

I think if there really is a "differentiation" between these two groups, then they shouldn't all be in the same JO level, or one group should be Xcel maybe? What OP describes would be like dividing the math groups in school and then giving them all the same exact test at the end of the month and just expecting the lower math group kids to accept a C's when the higher math kids gets A's cause they know the material better. What parent would just accept such a situation long term for their child?

 

[Committed]

I think if there really is a "differentiation" between these two groups, then they shouldn't all be in the same JO level, or one group should be Xcel maybe? What OP describes would be like dividing the math groups in school and then giving them all the same exact test at the end of the month and just expecting the lower math group kids to accept a C's when the higher math kids gets A's cause they know the material better. What parent would just accept such a situation long term for their child?

But why would they do better?! Ability!
They're given the same material!

And, no, I would not accept that type of ability grouping at school she got As with no teaching. Which is why I moved my daughter to a class where her classmates are of her academic level. I was frustrated with lack of differentiation by her former teachers.

 

[LizzieLac]

Is it really that much different than the group of level 5s who are getting ready to move up and one group moves to the level 7 group (and they train more hours) and one group goes to level 6 (they train less hours)? I am not stirring the pot, trust me, because my DD has been on both sides of the equation. At the end of the day, we are supposed to trust the coaches and how they coach (or we look for another gym).

 

[e'smum]

But why would they do better?! Ability!
They're given the same material!

And, no, I would not accept that type of ability grouping at school she got As with no teaching. Which is why I moved my daughter to a class where her classmates are of her academic level. I was frustrated with lack of differentiation by her former teachers.

i think she might be speaking to the amount of teaching they would give to each group in one of the above posts it was mentioned that one group got more hours/instruction than the other but were competing the same level. at that point, as a parent, do i accept it or do i move to a place where my kid will get equal instruction?

at our gym kids may compete 2 years in a level but they get the same amount of hours and instruction. there is no differentiation. that is what excel is for! you either have JO ability or you don't or aren't quite there yet. so excel is a good fit.

 

[suebee]

What do you mean they compete separately?

Dd's gym has different training groups for some levels. Different training groups for the same level can have the same hours (but different times) and the same coaches, the same hours and different coaches, or sometimes different hours and different coaches, depending on a variety of factors, I guess. But they all compete together as one team.

When they have different training groups for the same level, the training groups do not seem to be determined by score. While many of the higher scoring kids tend to be in the same group, not all the kids in that group are high scoring, and the other training group often has high scoring kids too. Dd's gym does not communicate much about how those types of decisions are made, but it's my understanding that work ethic and attitude is a large part of the training group decisions. Not that any of the kids have a bad attitude - but they seem to group the extremely focused ones and extremely hard-working ones together in one group. Or put some of the younger and less mature kids together and the older and more mature kids together.

 

[Really]

I'm a teacher myself, and I disagree with your notion that ability grouping is bad for kids (for gym and school). Why the big push for differentiation?

What I'm hearing is that everyone is equipped with the same abilities and should be trained exactly the same and will have the same outcomes.
In reality, this can stress those with lower-ability (who need more repetition) and frustrate/stagnate those with higher ability (who need little repetition).

In school, kids are ability grouped in reading, math, intervention, RSP, SDC, high achievers, GATE, etc.
In gym, kids are grouped age, level, speed of skill acquisition, homeschool, TOPs, HOPES, elite, etc.

Now, I'm certainly no gym expert, and I wouldn't like teams to be considered A group & B group (there's a connotation there). However, I definitely see a need for differentiation.

Differentiation can and should occur in mixed-ability groups. I am saying that academic tracking is bad for an entire population of kids and, as a national policy, ought to be avoided. See http://www.ascd.org/publications/ed...esearch-~-Is-Ability-Grouping-Equitable¢.aspx for more information. I am not going to get into a discussion on this on chalkbucket because it is beyond the scope of this message board. A for-profit gymnastics center that has parents paying top dollar to have their kids trained is obviously not the same as a public school. I was just wondering if there is any actual advantage from a coaching perspective to doing it this way. As in: do coaches see better results in the long run, and if so, in what ways?

 

[Really]

What do you mean they compete separately?

The team is too big to compete in the same rotation. So they divide into two groups, which I think the coaches choose. Which is the high scorers and the low scorers. My question is why would anyone do this? Does it help the overall team score? Is there some sort of strategy I am missing?

 

[gymmomtotwo]

I honestly don't get the point. The girls are set out by ability level with what level they are training. If a girl is advancing quicker than others, they move her up to a higher training group, and she tests out and skips a level. Separating kids at the same level on the same team seems like a terrible idea and I wouldn't blame parents for not liking it. If a kid is extra talented, move her up!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Because different abilities have different needs.

If my kid was moving slower, I don't want her needing to keep up with someone else.

If she is moving faster I don't want her slowed down by some one else.

A new level x, is not necessarily at same place as a nearly done and ready to move on level x.

There are level 4s who will move quickly to level 7 and level 4s who will not. A good coach will give the kids what they need, at the pace they need it.

Yes all level whatever's are not equal and they shouldn't be treated as they are.