WAG 8th grade Verbal recruit

[Iwannabemargo]

moot point for this girl as she would be not yet in High School

 

[BachFlyer]

Since my post was clearly in the camp of “it’s not fair”, I feel inclined to respond. I certainly don’t wish anything negative on this gymnast, and there isn’t any doubt in my mind that she’ll do just fine in the coming years, and at college. I am sure she is talented, and I’m sure she’ll live up to the academic expectations. I don’t think my post ever said that, but I can imagine I might feel that way if it were my child being discussed.

I still see the situation as unfair on many levels, though, and holding this opinion does not equate to me bashing this person. I understand that this is a subjective sport, and of course it will never be fair – nothing in life is. Does that make it unreasonable to ask questions and wonder how and why it came together for this particular child so much earlier than other kids with more under their belt? It is very confusing and frustrating when you see multiple year JO qualifiers fighting very hard to hold on to their dream of college gymnastics, and younger less seasoned athletes getting in to the best teams. The kids I know are also talented, they have also busted their tails, and they have “done the time” to boot. The possibility of competing in college has pushed many a L10 tween or teen girl through big fears, multiple injuries, a ton of late nights of high school homework and tired days of gym, and away from social activities. Families sacrifice right along with their gymmie throughout the years. We parents try to make the best decisions for our children (in a sport that often tries to cut us completely out) and help balance health / school/ social/ dreams/ finances.

No one said that young recruits such as Hunter are BAD, no one wants them to FAIL. If her “in” is through camp, and/or coaches connections, and/or a talent that is intangible and based on more than the hard "data" we have access to, and/or a strange system that values youth over experience...we just want to KNOW because we are INVESTED.

 

[raenndrops]

I could have written that post! LOL! Other than the weather rescheduling. As nervous as we were, we all tried to make it look like we really belonged taking the test with the juniors and seniors, until it was said "All of you taking this for the talent search, please sit over here".

I did it through Johns Hopkins - didn't help, as the program I qualified for was way too much money for my family, but I was quite proud of my scores!
Our area does it through Duke University, and I've already gotten wind of the cost of the program at Duke if the child qualifies... Now I'm just hoping that if my daughter does make it, that we can send her.... we'll see...

lol, We did the "Midwest Talent Search" and I'm not even sure that the people running it that day were aware... They didn't say a word and we were sitting in amongst the high schoolers. Beside me was a girl that went to high school with my older sister (she was not living with us and was in another district). Behind me was a "cheerleader" type and a hot guy was in front of me. I did have a classmate to my right, but she was going along with everything
We weren't told that it would lead anywhere except as practice for when we take it for real. I only scored 1000 in 7th grade and 1080 in 8th grade so, unless I wanted to play College football, I wasn't ready .

 

[LizzieLac]

Just curious, anyone know how many ice hockey female skaters going into 8th grade this fall are committed to NCAA Division I programs and offered a scholarship right now? How many goalies?

Don't know the answer but can tell you good friends of ours took their DD, who just finished 8th grade, to a college hockey scouting session during the summer. That in itself seemed a little silly to me.

 

[gymgal]

For a family with a similarly (or better) skilled child, you had better believe that figuring out this scholarship game is important. Seriously, there could be $150K of scholarship money on the table (not to mention the opportunity to progress in the sport they love). Plus the implications of recruiting 8th graders...

You said something key..."Utah SAW something in this girl...." Well, how exactly did they SEE it? She is a first year L9, and did not even make Easterns. And she lives on the other side of the country. Were the coaches in her gym looking at another girl? Did her coaches and parents just do one heck of a marketing job? Was it attending Utah's camp that got her noticed? Her website? The answers to these questions ARE important, and asking the questions doesn't mean that I am jealous or that I hope that Hunter fails.

your questions have already been answered. She attended a UTAH camp. She is in a high level gym (just won usg-gym gym of the year) with a history of young commits (glenns to UCLA in 9th), national coaches saw her at her own gym (assuming there for one of the Glenn sisters) and requested they submit a developmental camp video (along with a couple other teammates) , she is not a first year L9. She is a first year L10, she didn't make easterns due to a mishap on beam, which is usually a strong event for her. Otherwise she would have made it.

The recruiting process certainly maddening and frustrating but it is not rocket science. Enough has been posted on this site and other sites to know what needs to be done. Networking (coaches, parents, administrators, school counselors), the potential for several years in 10, consistent scores, the ability to meet the college requirements, exposure through nationals, camps, websites. All you can do is the best you can and know that it was enough. It is not any different than anything else in life.

And let's remember that we are only really talking about the top 20 teams. There are dozens more that generally do wait until sophomore year and later to offer commitments. Again, I totally agree those top 20 should be reigned in but let's not blow this out of portion. You do not need to be a 13yr old L10 and commit in 9th grade to get a scholarship and even if nothing changes, chances are we till never get to that point.

 

[Midwestmommy]

It is changing, it has changed a lot in the last 5 years from what I understand, and has gotten much worse. This impacts lots of kids, not just the lucky ones who end up getting the spots at the top 20 schools. Verbal commits before September of sophomore year should be banned. Contacts with the kids, parents and club coaches to discuss specific kids should be limited. Will there be cheaters. Yes. If they get caught they should be sanctioned (the colleges programs). That's the only way it will be stopped. This great advertising translates to some degree into enrollment, prestige and money to clubs. They aren't going to stop it, because their monetary incentives are otherwise (they are after all for-profit businesses like most of the rest of us), and apparently USAG does not care about early recruiting and its impact on many elementary age athletes. USA gymnastics is of course very much an "insiders" club at many levels, very intensely interested in selecting and developing great athletes starting with young kids to dominate at the elite world level. And it's fun for us to be doing great at world competition. But this is not Romania or Russia or China where the reality of human rights for children falls far short of what is on paper. I don't give the top 20 Div 1 programs an ethical pass, nor do I give the club of the year a pass,or USAG. They should be providing leadership on fixing this. They aren't.

 

[gymgal]

. No one said that young recruits such as Hunter are BAD, no one wants them to FAIL. If her “in” is through camp, and/or coaches connections, and/or a talent that is intangible and based on more than the hard "data" we have access to, and/or a strange system that values youth over experience...we just want to KNOW because we are INVESTED.

I this is what I don't get. Of what value is it? Is it really going to change how you go about the recruiting process? We already know that the single biggest factor for anything in life is "who you know". Knowing this girl is originally from Utah, it becomes pretty obvious that there are some networking there and likely played at least a small roll. It's just the way it is. Happens all the time. Looking at the hard data tells us very little. We all know that scores and medals don't tell the whole story. We know that lots of girls don't get to nationals, not because they are not good enough but because they live in extremely strong regions or because of an uncharacteristic fall.

I don't know - maybe I am just approaching it from a very different point of view. I have always been of the belief that if it is meant to happen it will and if it doesn't, I was meant to follow a different path. Now, that's not to say we won't do everything we can reasonably do to help dd fulfill her dream, but at the same time, we are not going to fret every time there's a new commit in dd's grad year, wondering why she got a commit and dd didn't. And Bach, I am not saying this about you specifically - just talking generally.

 

[bookworm]

Question regarding the verbal commitments: At Nationals, you get a sticker on your number; blue for Freshman, red for Sophomore, etc. If you're not yet in high school, no sticker. If you're "taken", no sticker. This to aid the colleges in knowing who is still available. So, if you've made a verbal commitment, do you have a sticker or not? Do you appear as "available" at Nationals, or not?

No sticker because you are not considered "available" once you commit verbally...

 

[gymmomtoo]

No sticker because you are not considered "available" once you commit verbally...

Just curious--do college coaches still contact kids once they commit verbally--to try and lure them away from original commitment? Are there rules against that?

 

[bookworm]

It is changing, it has changed a lot in the last 5 years from what I understand, and has gotten much worse. This impacts lots of kids, not just the lucky ones who end up getting the spots at the top 20 schools. .

I don't know if they're all that "lucky"

 

[gymgal]

It is changing, it has changed a lot in the last 5 years from what I understand, and has gotten much worse. This impacts lots of kids, not just the lucky ones who end up getting the spots at the top 20 schools. Verbal commits before September of sophomore year should be banned. Contacts with the kids, parents and club coaches to discuss specific kids should be limited. Will there be cheaters. Yes. If they get caught they should be sanctioned (the colleges programs). That's the only way it will be stopped. This great advertising translates to some degree into enrollment, prestige and money to clubs. They aren't going to stop it, because their monetary incentives are otherwise (they are after all for-profit businesses like most of the rest of us), and apparently USAG does not care about early recruiting and its impact on many elementary age athletes. USA gymnastics is of course very much an "insiders" club at many levels, very intensely interested in selecting and developing great athletes starting with young kids to dominate at the elite world level. And it's fun for us to be doing great at world competition. But this is not Romania or Russia or China where the reality of human rights for children falls far short of what is on paper. I don't give the top 20 Div 1 programs an ethical pass, nor do I give the club of the year a pass,or USAG. They should be providing leadership on fixing this. They aren't.

. I totally agree. My comment about the the top 20 was in response to a pp implying that all the schools are going this way and there will be no scholarships available for high schoolers. I am in total agreement that something needs to be done and that all the schools need to be held accountable. However, I question whether that just forces all this underground, where it still happens but nothing is ever publicly announced.

 

[bookworm]

Just curious--do college coaches still contact kids once they commit verbally--to try and lure them away from original commitment? Are there rules against that?

Some will try, as some did with my oldest, but we just sent them a "gentle reminder" email that she had already committed...

 

[Midwestmommy]

Kids, parents, and coaches should not have to feel pressure to have athletes ready to be recruited by seventh or eighth grade. That is insanity! What does that mean for all 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th graders who want to compete in this sport and have a dream of competing at college? Or to be more precise, children who are closer to having learned to tie their shoes or to ride a bike than to driving a car. The youngest of them are too young to even have any concept whatsoever of what college life is, some of them are still learning how to add and learning their multiplication tables. Haven't read a real chapter book yet. Think about that! THEY are not teenagers are even tweens, they are children. Children. They are the ones having to put in all these hours to be "recruitable" by seventh or eighth grade. Yes, they love the sport and some of them are focused and driven or talented or both, but make no mistake about it, at the elementary age the adults in their lives are shaping this journey for them.

There are gyms "requiring" large numbers of gymnasts to home school or email school, and not just high school age. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th graders putting in lots of hours.

This sport is rough, really rough, on the body. Kids that young (elementary age) deserve for society to care about them. Certainly we as a gymnastics community should care about them and how these changes trickle down to impact them.

Code of points trickles down-- train harder, younger, younger younger to get these crazy difficult skills. Elites barely have any competitions, their bodies couldn't bear it.
Enough already.

One small thing that could be done is to limit college recruiting of these younger kids by banning verbal commits until sophomore year (and tighten up the huge loopholes). Or we can just keep letting it get worse and crazier. Who is steering this bus on the recruiting of seventh and eighth graders? It isn't the JO parents, because I think as a collective voice they would put a stop to so fast it would make your head spin, if only they were able. They have no voice though.

 

[Midwestmommy]

PS when you hear orthopedic specialists making a joke at a party about whether gymnastics parents and coaches fall under their mandatory reporting requirement for child abuse. Well, that's not funny. It's embarrassing. And these verbal commits of junior high kids are embarrassing. Let's try to get control of the obvious stuff to fix folks.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

Question regarding the verbal commitments: At Nationals, you get a sticker on your number; blue for Freshman, red for Sophomore, etc. If you're not yet in high school, no sticker. If you're "taken", no sticker. This to aid the colleges in knowing who is still available. So, if you've made a verbal commitment, do you have a sticker or not? Do you appear as "available" at Nationals, or not?

Geesh! My DD didn't get a sticker because she was too young, I sure hope no one mistook her for being commited,

 

[Muddlethru]

There are many stories out there and in this website that have stated, the college rescinded their offer and/or the gymnast decided to go to another school. It appears then that breach of those verbal commitment do not carry any repurcussions. Have there been lawsuits filed for breach of these verbal contracts? What would the damages be if any? I personally have no issue with these early verbal commits. It could be right for some and not right for others. Certainly it does cause more pressure on the gymnast and gymnasts as a whole to perform earlier. But I think this whole recruiting process can be made as stressful as you want to make it out to be. As parents, we always worry if we may be passing up a good deal or if there is a better deal out there or we feel our daughter is entitled or deserves to get s scholarship. All these adds up to stress. It does not have to be that way.

But the point of my post is finding out what weight these verbal commitments have. And more importantly, Exactly what words are exchanged to constitue a verbal commitment? Many HCs send out form letters to more gymnasts/athletes than they have room for. They are fishing. What documentation, information is exchanged? What makes this commitment binding? I see dunno's point because I feel these verbal commitments these early means very little in reality. The parent may believe they've secured a college future for their daughter but the the coach sees it as securing a gymnast until someone better comes along, or the parent is still shoping around but commited to have a safety net and a coach is banking on this great gymnast to join his team. Maybe this is why the NCAA cannot step in, there is really nothing to regulate. These talks are unofficial and how can you regulate something that is unofficial? What is a verbal commitment really?

 

[NYG]

@4theloveofsports

Verbal commitments are nonbinding and this goes both ways. A school can just as easily drop an athlete as an athlete can switch schools. It means nothing to the NCAA and that's what matters. Recruiting is regulated by the NCAA (or NAIA) and they set all the rules. A school could not hold an athlete to a verbal commitment. The only time anything is binding is when an athlete signs a Letter of Intent (LOI). This is when the rubber hit's the road, both the school and athlete are obligated to receive a scholarship/ attend said school.

Also, four year (five with a redshirt) scholarships are renewed each year, meaning an athlete could lose a scholarship for various reason after commitment.

"Verbal commitments are increasing in popularity for the NCAA Division I and Division II colleges, and athletes need to understand their implications. Verbal commitments are a nonbinding scholarship dealbetween an athlete and a coach."

Here are some links that could be helpful in answering some questions.

http://www.juniorgolfscoreboard.com/ss_4_archive.asp?passsskID=46

http://www.athleticscholarships.net/2012/05/23/how-to-prepare-for-a-verbal-scholarship-offer.htm

 

[LMV]

Just to add, I'm fairly certain, though I could be wrong, you can't sign an LOI until your senior year. So all those kids with verbals to where ever are fair game to still be recruited by other Univiersities.

At least for NCAA Division 1, there are sport specific timelines during the senior year when athletes are allowed to sign. They are not allowed to sign before these dates, so, you are correct that early verbals are not really enforceable if the coach or athlete decide not to follow through or honor them. Obviously there may be impacts and consequences beyond the individual when commitments are not upheld. There may be an incentive for college coaches to honor an early verbal to an athlete they no longer want because they don't want to make other athletes wary to verbal early with their program for fear of being dropped. Athletes may also stick with a less preferred team even when there are other options at the last minute out of true loyalty/honoring commitments or perhaps because their club coach pushes them to so as not to "burn that bridge" for younger teammates in the future.

One also needs to remember that when athletes sign their LOI they are signing for a single academic year. Ideally, their scholarship will be renewed but this is not always the case and students and families should be prepared for that.

 

[Muddlethru]

@4theloveofsports

Verbal commitments are nonbinding and this goes both ways. A school can just as easily drop an athlete as an athlete can switch schools. It means nothing to the NCAA and that's what matters. Recruiting is regulated by the NCAA (or NAIA) and they set all the rules. A school could not hold an athlete to a verbal commitment. The only time anything is binding is when an athlete signs a Letter of Intent (LOI). This is when the rubber hit's the road, both the school and athlete are obligated to receive a scholarship/ attend said school.

Also, four year (five with a redshirt) scholarships are renewed each year, meaning an athlete could lose a scholarship for various reason after commitment.

"Verbal commitments are increasing in popularity for the NCAA Division I and Division II colleges, and athletes need to understand their implications. Verbal commitments are a nonbinding scholarship dealbetween an athlete and a coach."

Here are some links that could be helpful in answering some questions.

http://www.juniorgolfscoreboard.com/ss_4_archive.asp?passsskID=46

http://www.athleticscholarships.net/2012/05/23/how-to-prepare-for-a-verbal-scholarship-offer.htm

Thank you. That was my point exactly. I never thought they were binding. So I could not understand why it is such a big deal. Sure I get that the gymnast knows there is interest and if all goes well she may have a college scholarship, but why would or should we aspire or worry about getting or hearing of someone getting a verbal commitment if it is nothing more than a college or gymnast saying we may be interested in 4-5 years?

My son was put in an IG program in 3rd grade. On his last year in elementary, his teacher informed us parents that he was holding the students back because the junior high school teachers said the IG students were bored out of their minds in junior high as they've already learned everything that was being taught. Our son is pulled from his home school, separated from his friends and quarantined with a small group for 3 years, accelerated and then held back! WTH! Then in junior high and high school, he was again accelerated; could have graduated his sophomore year but did all AP classes his junior and senior year. Upon graduating, he had 11 AP classes and he just turned 17. He is going to a prestigious university in Ca and guess what, they are not giving him credit on majority of those AP classes. All these accelerating since 3rd grade helped nothing. He would have ended up in the same university through the regular courses.

It is an honor to be sought out and distinguished that early. I think that is suppose to be exciting more than stressful.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I don't really "get" it either. She is talented... but my daughter has friends who are phenomenal and 8-9 (third graders) competing Level 8 this season. It really makes me sad for the "older girls" who put in their time and may feel like they don't even have a shot at college gymnastics.

This is what I've been saying for 2 years! I have to fight back tears every time a school that has gotten my dd's hopes up, signs or commits someone else and someone younger.