Off Topic A discussion of racism in the gymnastics world

[Deleted member 18037]

People eff up sometimes and should be given some grace.

The current world/climate we live in does not allow for growth and maturity. Or forgiveness.

People are currently being fired, losing sponsors, vilified etc…. For mistakes and stupidity in their youth. Sometimes decades later.

And I find the self professed non judgmental, tolerant people are the most intolerant. judgmental and unforgiving of them all. The intolerant wrath of the tolerant

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I don't know how else to interpret this quote other than to say, it seems like you are expecting even those who may be "color blind" to the issue, to still take extra steps to be constantly sensitive about all of the possible societal consequences of their words. And for now just take me personally out of the equation. But the following is really what I want to say, and I'll end here:

If we have to constantly ask people who ARE racially unbiased, to censor and limit themselves because of others, or because of the society - where is the end goal?? How can we ever reach any end goal?

You are not "color blind." You are not "racially unbiased." Neither am I. Neither is anybody else. Neither is society at large.

Like it or not, you and I and everybody else grew up in a society where black people are disproportionately poor and disproportionately targeted by the justice system. If you live in the US (and this is probably true of other countries as well, I just know the details more with regards to the US), then like it or not you live in a country that was built on the backs of black slaves, and which continued to systematically discriminate against black people long after slavery ended (although, side note, it never REALLY ended, since forced labor is still legal with prisoners, who are -- surprise surprise -- disproportionately black). You can't just wave your hands and say "I'm not racist" and make all that go away.

Working against racism is not something you do by just declaring yourself to not be racist (and I'm using "you" to mean "people in general," not "you specifically, Ken1978"). Working against racism means acknowledging that it exists (even when it isn't always obvious), and actively working against it.

 

[gymgal]

Working against racism is not something you do by just declaring yourself to not be racist (and I'm using "you" to mean "people in general," not "you specifically, Ken1978"). Working against racism means acknowledging that it exists (even when it isn't always obvious), and actively working against it.

Completely agree. At the same time, when people automatically assume/state that a critique/comment is racially motivated/biased then it shuts down any meaningful conversation about the original topic. We are seeing this play out in politics, sports, entertainment and just regular life. And obviously it is not just race. It is gender, nationality, sexual orientation, and beyond. We can't even have an honest conversation about the "whys" and "how's" - why do people of color continue to be disproportionately poor and targeted by police. How do we improve this?

 

[Deleted member 26718]

We can't even have an honest conversation about the "whys" and "how's" - why do people of color continue to be disproportionately poor and targeted by police.

People can't answer that truthfully because it isn't allowed. So much for "honest conversation." That's one of the primary reasons I rail against "wokeness" - it's about an agenda, never an honest discussion.

I'll just say - I think Simone is awesome and a positive force. Referencing Olympic gymnastics, to get on the team, I don't remember if it was quoted in Golden or what, but it was said to "be undeniable." Whoever wants to actually fix race relations I'd say the same thing - stop blaming and shaming. Instead be like Simone. Be undeniable.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'll just say - I think Simone is awesome and a positive force. Referencing Olympic gymnastics, to get on the team, I don't remember if it was quoted in Golden or what, but it was said to "be undeniable." Whoever wants to actually fix race relations I'd say the same thing - stop blaming and shaming. Instead be like Simone. Be undeniable.

Before I respond to this, let me say up front: I believe that you are being genuine here, and I believe that you believe what you're saying. I don't believe you have any malicious intent.

But I also believe you are wrong.

"Be like Simone." This is exactly the problem. Black, brown, and indigenous people shouldn't have to be like the GOAT to be respected as people. They shouldn't even have to be above average to be respected as people. The only requirement for being respected as a person should be.... being a person.

Furthermore, saying the solution is to just "be undeniable" is essentially absolving yourself of any responsibility. Like it's not on us as white people to recognize and address discrimination; it's on the victims to be so awesome that we can no longer deny them.
While it's very comforting for us white folks to think the ball is in somebody else's court, that's just not how this works.

Consider this section from Dr. Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail:

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: 'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action'; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a 'more convenient season.' Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured."

When Dr. King talks about "white moderates," he's talking about people who make exactly the sorts of arguments you're making here.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

I did not mean people have to be gymnasts or excel in some field. I just meant to have her positive spirit. Case in point - look at all the hateful people condemning things MyKayla tweeted or reposted years ago. Simone on the other hand accepts her as a friend.

MLK lived in a different time. Unfortunately I think our society is a lot worse on the whole, even for blacks. And I seriously doubt MLK would support most of BLM's actions. Unless you can point to evidence that MLK supported the razing of historic statues or the burning of buildings.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Who cares if Simone accepts her as her friend, the racist stuff happened to Gabby not her. I keep hitting unwatch on this damn thread but it won’t let me do it. I don’t speak for all “The Blacks” like you called us, but this sh#T is getting me pissed

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

MLK lived in a different time. Unfortunately I think our society is a lot worse on the whole, even for blacks. And I seriously doubt MLK would support most of BLM's actions. Unless you can point to evidence that MLK supported the razing of historic statues or the burning of buildings.

I literally quoted MLK voicing his frustration about people who are more concerned about protestors' methods of direct action than about the injustices they were fighting, and you respond by saying you think MLK wouldn't support current protestors because of their methods of direct action, while saying nothing about the actual injustices they're protesting.

Case in point - look at all the hateful people condemning things MyKayla tweeted or reposted years ago. Simone on the other hand accepts her as a friend.

To the best of my knowledge, Simone Biles has not been appointed as a spokesperson for black people in general.

I did not mean people have to be gymnasts or excel in some field. I just meant to have her positive spirit.

The onus is not on black people to "have a positive spirit" while they're being oppressed. The onus is on everybody to build a society where they aren't oppressed.

 

[beckfree1]

it has really come to a head in all sports, but only issue now is censorship. I think it does come under a freedom of speech violation because it causes hatred/violence towards a particular group so it should be absolutely clamped down on like a pure freedom of speech violation. more violent reactions more it will be considered as inciting a riot. racist abuse should just be considered a crime today. thats it.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

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As you press on for justice, be sure to move with dignity and discipline, using only the weapon of love. Let no man pull you so low as to hate him. Always avoid violence. If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in your struggle, unborn generations will be the recipients of a long and desolate night of bitterness, and your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos. (1956)

We believe in law and order. We are not advocating violence. We want to love our enemies. If I am stopped, our work will not stop, for what we are doing is right.
- 1956, in Montgomery, Alabama

Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love. (1958)

A fifth point concerning nonviolent resistance is that it avoids not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. The nonviolent resister not only refuses to shoot his opponent but he also refuses to hate him. (1958)

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction ... The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation. (1963)

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

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You don't get it.

You're still focusing on the methods of protest, and in doing so diverting the discussion away from the actual injustices being protested. Every single post you've made on this subject here can be summed up as "the REAL problem is not racism, but people protesting against racism."

The way conservative-leaning (and even centrist) media talk about BLM today is all but indistinguishable from the way opponents of the Civil Rights Movement talked about it back in the 60's. For example, take a look at this cartoon published in the Birmingham News in 1967.

Trying to turn attention away from the actual issues of discrimination by debating the validity of the methods of protest is a time-honored tradition among opponents of social progress.

 

[JBS]

Here is a conversation from Gymnaverse... many other links in it too...

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[JBS]

Here is a podcast about the current UCLA situation...

 

[JBS]

The follow thread has been opened to discuss the current UCLA situation...

NCAA - Current UCLA Situation (Alexis Jeffery Transfer)

With all the things that have happened in gymnastics I have been asked what ChalkBucket can do to help make gymnastics better. My answer is always the same... ChalkBucket helps by allowing people to talk about things. As we move ChalkBucket into 2022... I want everyone to feel as if they can...

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