Coaches A theory regarding knee structure and tumbling development

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Most of us who coach have probably run into at least one kid who is physcially incapable of completely straightening their legs, due not to lack of tightness but due to simple joint structure.

I was thinking about this recently, and I came to a realization. I have seen four gymnasts with this problem (myself being among them). If I were to list the top 5 most powerful tumblers/vaulters I've seen at my gym, ALL FOUR of those kids would be on that list.

Is there a correlation, or is it coincidence? It seems to me entirely possible that an inability to completely straighten the legs would force the quadriceps to do more work in regular day-to-day activities, which could cause them to become stronger over time than they would for an athlete who can completely straighten the legs. There may also be some mechanical advantage, allowing for better turnover in a roundoff.

Thoughts? Does anybody know of any studies on the subject? It seems striking that every kid I've run into with this issue is a very powerful tumbler, but four kids is not exactly an ideal sample size.

I'd particularly like to hear from Valentin and dunno on this, though anybody's input would be welcome.

(this is mainly a matter of curiosity; I don't think a conclusion either way would change how I coach)

 

[gymcoach26]

This is actually pretty interesting. One of our girls who was the vault state champion last year is just what you described. Her knees do not go straight, but her tumbling is very powerful.
Is it possible that the powerful tumbling and running is causing the knee to be that way and not the other way around?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I suppose either is possible.

So I guess I have two questions:

1) Does this correlation in fact exist, or is it illusory?

2) If there is a correlation, what are the cause and effect? Does one cause the other, or are they mutual effects of some other cause?

 

[Valentin]

Hi

Humm interesting question.

I haven't seen any research on the knees joint ROM restriction or more accurately stated the stiffness of the tendons crossing the knee joint being associated with force production. However my bet on explaining this observation is that if you tested these gymnasts you will find that they most likely have tight calfs and also tight archilies tendons. The calf is a weak knee flexor thus having tight calfs can lead to inability to stretch the knees completely particularly with complete planterflexion (toe point). Generally you will find that the kids with tight archilies are the powerful tumblers. This holds true, as Archilies tendon passive stiffness is strongly correlated to plyometric ability, and ground reaction response (which in itself is highly correlated to tumbling ability and sprinting..(hint) ).

Also tumbling is most efficient when the knee joint is as tight as possible, Having bent knees will equal in a suboptimal line of force. Its like taking of for a somersault with bent legs..it don't work to well.

Overall the key is to develop high passive stiffness in the archilies tendon, but one that is also flexible, reason being that this way the tendon is able to store more energy during the eccentric phase, and is also been shown to have better returns of energy during the concentric as less energy is lost.

In short i don't think that passive stiffness around the knee joint is beneficial in gymnastics
1- Aesthetically it looks ugly,
2- You get deductions
3- Stiffness of the patellar tendon will result in knee issues (eg OSD, jumpers knee etc). And stiffness of the hamstring tendons also causes a variety of less common knee conditions.
4- The potential contribution to better tumbling would be greatly outweighed by the negatives (1-3), and i don't feel/think at this point that there is actually any significant contribution.

For the athletes in mind have them try to squat with arms extended infront and see how far they can get? If their butt can touch their heels (archilies that is what you want)

Have them do a pike stretch standing up, and get them to place their weight on the toes without the heels coming off the floor, and ask them to tell you where they feel the stetch most. Around the knees = tight calves, in the hamstrings it = tight hamstrings haha.

I will however look out for any relevant research.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I should have been more clear: obviously I don't think it is over-all beneficial for kids to have knees too stiff to straighten all the way, and even if there was some way to train this attribute I wouldn't.

I was more just commenting on a pattern I've noticed.

 

[Aussie_coach]

You may have a point their. Our kids who can't straighten are also quite powerful in the legs. Do you often hear yourself saying "They have so much talent but never score well in comps"

 

[Valentin]

Hi

Simply put yeah i would support your observation, that kids with tight tendons are the powerful ones. There is good reason for it.
However i would have to say that the pattern isn't because of the lack of knee extension possible, but rather due to them most likely having tight calves and Archilles tendons. The knees is a secondary condition, but more obvious.

I don't find that Aussie_coach, usually they don't score well for obvious reasons haha. Lack of knee extension never seems to be a huge setback here in NZ. I am sure its is different around the world.

 

[CoachTodd]

I know the girls that GT is referring to and I'd have to go with the tight calves and hamstrings. One of them has extremely good active flexibility so the knees will get straight when needed. One of them is a very strong little girl that hates to work on flex and condition thus the complete in ability to straighten any part of her body but those tight tendons give her a lot of pop.
I have noticed that growth spurts sometimes cause the same tightness but don't necessarily translate into more power. I'm guessing that this is due to the lack of fast twitch muscle in those particular gymnasts but I haven't tested this with any type of plyo's yet.
One thing I have noticed is that the more powerful tumblers have a very fast punch off the floor instead of a very hard punch. (i.e. the hard punch is very strong but not very quick and require more physical strength) From what I've played around with, the faster punch (again usually attributed to the tighter tendons) seems to be much more effective yet very difficult to teach the body to do.

Anyone have any good ideas on speeding up the punch other that just plyo's? Without destroying the joints of the gymnasts .

 

[gymnut1]

good thread. As a beginner coach Im reading with interest!

 

[CoachTodd]

good thread. As a beginner coach Im reading with interest!

So far I'm liking all of the feedback on this one. As is with most of the posts I've seen on this forum, I don't see any real nut cases with their input. Most of what I've seen is useful.

 

[Linsul]

I've seen this, and I have never seen it go away through desire and effort. Never as in Olympic coaches with astounding resources could not fix it. All they could do was attempt to do was hide it in choreography, which means nothing for bars and vault. I don't know if it's genetic or not, but I look for it in pre-team selection. If a potential pre-teamer can't straighten their legs in a pike, that's a no-go.

 

[gymdog]

While I think it's hard to completely eliminate, I guess in my experience it hasn't been impossible to significantly improve the line. Mine used to be much worse, as well as another teammate (who was a fantastic tumbler and vaulter. I'm okay, and tend towards fast twitch muscle, but she could just explode off the floor). We also both incidentally have pretty tight shoulders. I have good active flexibility. Can't do a middle split and never will but my pike and forward splits are now good (lot of work).

One exercise was to pull the heel off the floor (flexed stretch in pike) one leg at a time, while using the other hand to apply gentle pressure at the knee area (to keep this part of the leg on the floor, while trying to get the heel up higher). I hope that makes sense. This can be easily done in many places and is an "easy" stretch to do. This alone improved my leg flexibility significantly and you could actually feel that the ligament or tendon or whatever that bulge is behind the knee, is less...not tight, but it's less, um, well bulging? I don't know how to describe it at all. Someone explained this to me once. I don't remember a thing about it.

My leg flexibility gains remained relatively stable too. Shoulders not so much. If I go without stretching my shoulders for some time, they get tight really fast....it's like back to square one. I don't have "easy" flexibility in my legs, but I'm usually surprised at how much I can maintain it and how quickly I can regain it.

 

[Valentin]

To CoachTodd

The fast punch as you say is the key!. That is reaction time of the floor, and it is the one key factor most highly correlated with good tumbling.
Plyometric's (plus preparatory leg strength) is the key to developing this, plus it is also is to a large degree a genetical (as fast twitch fibers seem to be something that you can get more off after a certain period of time...more research needed on this one).
When i say plyometrics i am not talking about what gymnastics coaches do all the time, without any real understand of how and why (as it is in most cases). For example depth jumps are best done of a height between 30-45cm because at this height it has been show that well conditioned athletes can get the best reaction times of the floor (in the range of 0.2-0.3ish ms if memory serves me right).
What i think is the best form of training for young gymnasts to develop this, is sprint training, i kinda cover this in the last article i wrote for the Gym Coach Journal (click to view abstract of article), but i didn't get into detail.
However reason behind it is that kids can handle sprint training quite well between ages of 7-12, sprinting contact times are very similar to tumbling contact times (in good sprinters of course), it can easy be overloaded, and its not as boaring, plus it is great for vault in general.

The lack of knee stretch can be fixed, as a matter of fact in diving especially they work pretty hard at it, by doing exercises from a young age where the coach pushes or someone sits on your knees when you in pike (that stretch that everyone knows not to do). However this stretching method is still popular in diving (especially with Chinese coaches). with time this actually does work..however what are the long term effects? I don't know, why is it recommended not to be done? Most likely because it is easy to injury someone with it, not because it doesn't work (just like the recommendations with ballistic stretching).

I suppose like Linsul says, it could be something that you uses a selection criteria, if you as a coach/club are not prepared to apply such methods to help improve the individuals weaknesses, and its fair enough in a way.

 

[BlairBob]

Hmm, one of my boys seems to have this. This kid is inflexible all over, except when doing shoulder extension (like german hang on rings) behind his back which also makes sense because he is a good circler.

I've come across a bunch of PT tests via Kelly Starlett of CrossFitSF(MD in PT) off the CrossFitJournal and have been meaning test him. Basically ROM in the joints.

As poor as his tumbling is form wise, it's amazing as he is very quick. He's not a pretty vaulter during his run but he can sprint well. To note, he has an ugly side cartwheel. His front to back cartwheel is passable but his lack of straddle flexibility in combination with shoulder flexibility isn't turning over his round-off enough from the block so, well, yeah.

Right now he is a L5. I think he is 4'4" with a vertical jump of around 14". He doesn't actually perform the test that efficiently. Standing broad jump was around 5 and a half feet I think, possibly over 6. He was trying to beat mine.

20m sprint time from start to finish was just over 3 and a half seconds. 3.78 I think.

He is very poor at Single Leg Squatting with either the free leg at horizontal or hanging free (when doing them on BB). I think it's a mobility issue in the knee or ankle as sometimes he complains about ankle flexion. He can do about 1 SLS but never more than that as his balance is weird as I can see his knee track in.

He also has a habit of pidgeon footing the front foot in a lunge. Also happens in his scale.

Quite often when he is in a pike it looks like he has slightly bent knees. He has been favoring his right leg since he has been complaining about a leg injury during soccer on that leg around the hip flexor.

His legs also seem slightly bent when he pulls from german hang to basket hang.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well now, wait till you read mine!

your observation is correct. there are reasons for this.

1. "Q" angle in females. they are more susceptible to knee injuries over boys. the larger the "Q" angle, the more "hypermobile" the knee joint. hyper meaning past straight. hypo meaning they can't get to straight. hyper means more pronounced "ligament lax". hypo means less elasticity. hyper means more. this means that the "sooner" the knee joint stops on something like a punch, the shorter and more explosive the stroke in the muscle contraction.

2. when gymnasts punch boards and floors, a secondary knee bend takes place. those athletes that are "hypomobile" have stronger quads and less elastic hamstrings. as a rule, they will leave the floor and boards sooner and with less secondary knee bend. this phenomena is currently in research by dr. bill sands. more info should be coming.

3. i would say that your observation would also include those same athletes as being "fast" muscle twitch. usually, hypermobile jointed athletes have slower muscle twitch. there are exceptions in the population of athletes across all sports, but generally, hypomobile athletes may not be flexible, but they are certainly fast. case in point...hussain bolt from jamaica. watch is backward footstroke. he is hypomobile. his knees do not straighten.

4. you will also observe the same athletes with hypomobile elbows. acts as a spring. hyper is bad as you well know for tumbling and vaulting, and especially yurchenkos. the further the joint is pushed beyond the joint capsule is where you find all these problems with knees and elbows. certainly valentin is correct about patellar tendonitis. but that is a better condition than pulled hamstrings/ischialtuberosities and stretched ligaments of the knee and elbow. what do you hear coaches in every sport say? "geesh, i wish they would have just broken a bone".

5. then you have the 3 anthropological/anthropomorphic body types. endomorphic, mesomorphic, and ectomorphic. endo is shaped like a coke bottle. meso is equally proportioned. ecto is shaped like "olive oil" from the popeye series...very long arms and legs and no torso. so, it is consistent to see what you are observing with endomorphs. shorter stature, shorter bones to joint, lower center of mass, and very hypomobile joints lacking elasticity. meso's a little less, and ecto's alot less. then you have muscle twitch across all 3 body types.

so, what you see is not a coincidence. and the above simple descriptions explain what you see in gymnastics from body to body. culture to culture.

finally, hypomobile gymnasts break bones. hypermobile gymnasts stretch and tear ligaments/tendons and dislocate their knees and elbows.

pick your gin?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I've seen this, and I have never seen it go away through desire and effort. Never as in Olympic coaches with astounding resources could not fix it. All they could do was attempt to do was hide it in choreography, which means nothing for bars and vault. I don't know if it's genetic or not, but I look for it in pre-team selection. If a potential pre-teamer can't straighten their legs in a pike, that's a no-go.

this is unfortunate. you might be turning away a world vault or floor champion. look at the best in the world. and most recently kayla williams. her knees don't straighten. she won't win bars. but most won't touch her on floor and vault.

 

[gymch34]

Many tight kids, are in fact, tight, because they are strong- this reflects in their power. It very RARE that you get super quick, powerful kid who is also flexible- has straight or super straight legs with little effort. It do not think it has anything to w/ the structure of their knees, rather their flexibility. I think of Dominique Dawes as a case of both flexible and powerful- she had the best of both worlds. But her coaches really had to work on her flex as well, it did not come 100% naturally, but easier than some other powerful gymnasts.

The lack of flex shows up more in younger, lower level kids. We are looking for more passive flex, rather than an active or quick flex, which will benefit a higher level gymnast. it has been proven that the more you stretch the leg muscles, the more POWER you lose. This, of course, has to be balanced with the needs of gymnasts- both getting them flexible enough to be healthy, and looking asthetically pleasing (nice leg line). Many of the best sprinters in the world are what we would consider "unflexible". But for their sport, fast is what is best!

I find its best to do a lot of punching and jumping plyometrics AFTER the legs are strong. This helps quicken that strong muscle, and we also do most of our splitting flex work at the end of he workout. We also do a lot of active flex- jumping & pulling lots of different shapes QUICKLY-both directions, open & close. I also do lots of prehab- working the ankles, knees , hips in different exercises to strengthen & balance out the body.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

To CoachTodd

The fast punch as you say is the key!. That is reaction time of the floor, and it is the one key factor most highly correlated with good tumbling.
Plyometric's (plus preparatory leg strength) is the key to developing this, plus it is also is to a large degree a genetical (as fast twitch fibers seem to be something that you can get more off after a certain period of time...more research needed on this one).
When i say plyometrics i am not talking about what gymnastics coaches do all the time, without any real understand of how and why (as it is in most cases). For example depth jumps are best done of a height between 30-45cm because at this height it has been show that well conditioned athletes can get the best reaction times of the floor (in the range of 0.2-0.3ish ms if memory serves me right).
What i think is the best form of training for young gymnasts to develop this, is sprint training, i kinda cover this in the last article i wrote for the Gym Coach Journal (click to view abstract of article), but i didn't get into detail.
However reason behind it is that kids can handle sprint training quite well between ages of 7-12, sprinting contact times are very similar to tumbling contact times (in good sprinters of course), it can easy be overloaded, and its not as boaring, plus it is great for vault in general.

The lack of knee stretch can be fixed, as a matter of fact in diving especially they work pretty hard at it, by doing exercises from a young age where the coach pushes or someone sits on your knees when you in pike (that stretch that everyone knows not to do). However this stretching method is still popular in diving (especially with Chinese coaches). with time this actually does work..however what are the long term effects? I don't know, why is it recommended not to be done? Most likely because it is easy to injury someone with it, not because it doesn't work (just like the recommendations with ballistic stretching).

I suppose like Linsul says, it could be something that you uses a selection criteria, if you as a coach/club are not prepared to apply such methods to help improve the individuals weaknesses, and its fair enough in a way.

hypomobile knees can only be straightened by surgery. the stretch you mention above is very dangerous. and all cultures are built differently. the chinese are no exceptions. it is not a coincidence that they have so many athletes that "invert" with ease. i could go on more, but i think you get my drift.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Many tight kids, are in fact, tight, because they are strong- this reflects in their power. It very RARE that you get super quick, powerful kid who is also flexible- has straight or super straight legs with little effort. It do not think it has anything to w/ the structure of their knees, rather their flexibility. I think of Dominique Dawes as a case of both flexible and powerful- she had the best of both worlds. But her coaches really had to work on her flex as well, it did not come 100% naturally, but easier than some other powerful gymnasts.

The lack of flex shows up more in younger, lower level kids. We are looking for more passive flex, rather than an active or quick flex, which will benefit a higher level gymnast. it has been proven that the more you stretch the leg muscles, the more POWER you lose. This, of course, has to be balanced with the needs of gymnasts- both getting them flexible enough to be healthy, and looking asthetically pleasing (nice leg line). Many of the best sprinters in the world are what we would consider "unflexible". But for their sport, fast is what is best!

I find its best to do a lot of punching and jumping plyometrics AFTER the legs are strong. This helps quicken that strong muscle, and we also do most of our splitting flex work at the end of he workout. We also do a lot of active flex- jumping & pulling lots of different shapes QUICKLY-both directions, open & close. I also do lots of prehab- working the ankles, knees , hips in different exercises to strengthen & balance out the body.

dominique was not only hypomobile, but bow legged also. great combination coupled with her fast muscle twitch.

 

[Valentin]

to dunno's reponse

Indeed if the knee joint position lacks full ROM due to anatomical abnormality, then yes surgery is the only way to do it, however!, muscular development and flexibility restrictions cannot be ignored (not saying you are saying that)
A good dose of stretching can significantly help, if not improve the condition. Particularly if this is something that begins to become apparent during early childhood-pre-adolescents, as the children begin to engage more in sports. as opposed to from birth, which is a clear indicator of structural abnormality of the joint.

Gymnastics and most sports are very much quadriceps training focused, and result in imbalanc in their athlete development. Far to much quad work, with little specific stretching, plus little hamstring work, and lots of flexibility training (commonly seen in gymnastics). My self guilty of it....there is only so much time available and sadly this causes compromises...

A good example in reference to this is myself. When i was kid i had perfect elbow joint ROM..180 to a little more. However at 14 i began weight training, and quickly got into heavy weight. As much as tried to go through full ROM, inevitably due to adaptation my bicep tendon remains short in development, now my elbows don't have full ROM.... Now i know my joint has the ability to go to 180°, but i can't actually get 180. So this was the result of training imbalance, which i think is very common in gymnastics.

Also i am not advocating the knee stretching thing mentioned above (previous post of mine). However this is a method known to work for people who have developed hypomobile looking joints (not saying that they actually are).

Would you please be able to continue with ..."

all cultures are built differently. the chinese are no exceptions. it is not a coincidence that they have so many athletes that "invert" with ease

... i have noticed as well, however i do know that the Chinease do spend a lot of time early on developing this, and it may not be just a coincidence. I agree that cultural there do seem to be distinct anthropometric and morphological characteristics around the globe.