WAG Addressing the Lack of Artistry in Current Gymnastics

[gymmomtoo]

She won??

 

[JBS]

Here is a couple questions for all...

Is this artistry?

In ''Bob Fosse's Broadway,'' Margery Beddow's new book about what it was like to dance for him, there's a telling photo of Fosse, rehearsing ''Pleasures and Palaces,'' a Frank Loesser musical of the early 60's that never made it to Broadway. Off balance as usual, Fosse looks out over his left shoulder, which is hiked up to chin level. His arms point right, wrists flexed, knuckles up, fingers down, thumbs extended. His torso bends the opposite way, with his left hip cocked well to the left of his left foot, his right leg stretched slightly forward with the toe pointing up.

Behind him, the dancers mimic his pose. But one hasn't managed the hip thrust, and looks as if he's about to spring into a graceful ballet leap. Another hasn't properly shrugged his shoulder, so he looks poised to allemande right in a square dance. A third, who hasn't extended his arms sharply enough, appears to be doing a casual soft-shoe. And all three have missed Fosse's smartly angled head.

Only Fosse is actually doing Fosse, and it's clear how rigorous the style is: with a single element missing, it falls apart. The tensed line, the push-and-pull in opposite directions have got to be just right, and they cease to exist if the head is not properly positioned. Fosse was a perfectionist. This photograph shows why he needed to be.

Is this not artistry?

@Midwestmommy

Your statement...

If our young ones can be taught to point their toes, they can be taught not to make talons with their hands. If they can be taught not to flex feet, they can be taught not to "flex" hands/wrists. If it is something a professional dancer spent fifteen years learning, can most elite gymnasts learn it? No. If it's something basic that an average nine year old ballet dance student can master, should future elite gymnasts be able to figure it out (looong before they are doing 4-5 tumbling passes or doubles)? Yeah, probably.

Some of us "flex" our wrists on purpose...to make a statement...to make art.

 

[JBS]

I think there might be a bit of misunderstanding going on during this fascinating debate because Dunno is thinking in terms of very high level elite gymnastics

No...the lack of artistry goes way down. We have removed most of it from our L6 & L7 routines...and we focus much less on dance. Short and sweet...less is more...hit your difficulty requirements...flair the corners with "flexed wrists"...BAM...high score. Spend the rest of the time on floor working for the future...which is skills...difficult ones.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Ah, that would explain some of the very strong reaction to criticism of flexed wrists. I know that some coaches are teaching it as proper form. I personally find it makes for a rather icky line, I just don't get why coaches like it or teach it as proper form. To, me it's no more attractive than a flexed foot, which is also used sparingly in dance (but doesn't make it OK to not point toes in a lot of gymnastics positions). I think it looks icky and silly in gymnastics floor routines. That I think comes down to an aesthetic opinion, since it doesn't impact the score, you and others who like it will continue to teach it as "cool technique". That is definitely an agree to disagree moment. Hope you aren't teaching the talons though!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Out of curiosity, did coaches and fans in the 80's look back on the gymnastics of the 60's and say "now why couldn't the sport be more like it was back then?"

I'm not being snarky; it's an honest question.


EDIT: I want to expand on what JBS is saying, and bring it back to the inherent difference between sport and art.

Part of any good artistic performance is knowing when and how to bend and break the rules. Being able to effectively break the rules from time to time is the mark of a great artist.

In sports, by definition, the rules must be rigid and unyielding. All people are held to the same rules, always, no exceptions. To do anything else is to damage the integrity of the competition.


EDIT 2: Reading through the thread again, it seems like several people here are conflating the question of artistry with that of difficulty.

How artistic a routine is and how difficult it is.... these are two completely unrelated variables. There is zero connection between how difficult a routine is and how artistic it is.

 

[Natalia]

Geoff,what is artistry in gymnastics????

Coming from a ballet backround,I think most of the fluff the girls do on floor is Uuuuugly.I saw a routine where a girl just walked to the corner rather then prance around to get there.It looked so much better.

As I stated before ,I define artistry as an aesthetic experience that engages my senses to awaken an emotional response.

But ,surely that's not what we're talking about here.Or is it?

Is a routine done with proper form considered more or less artistic.Good form is more pleasing to view,even to a layman.

Is good form good artistry?The ugliness of the vaults described by Dunno seems more of a technical nature to me then artistic misjudgement.

Help!Je ne comprends pas

 

[Midwestmommy]

I suppose sports rules are supposed to be rigid and unyeilding, but I can think of few sports where the performing within those rules could be done by a robot. Or where the rules can or should "drive the bus" in athletic performance.

I totally disagree with the zero connection, an intrinsic part of the beauty of gymnastics is the difficulty, i.e.--difficulty combined with making it look easy is what makes it beautiful and amazing, if you will. Beauty = art. You say there is no art in that equation. I say there is. Agree to disagree. Simone Biles performance at worlds was amazing and beautiful, in my opinion. Art in motion.

There are lots of rules in skiing, but that's not what determines who gets down the hill the fastest. There are lots of rules in hockey that dictate what a goalie can do, but that doesn't determine a great goalie performance from an OK one. Even the stats don't tell the whole story about what was a fabulous game for a goalie and what was an OK one. Rules are the contraints within which athletes perform and are measured. And of course in gymnastics they are dictating a lot of what kids are learning and doing.

Grownups driving the sport and making the rules are responsible for what they create and what is happening (or isn't happening) to children as as result. I'm not saying it is good or bad right now, but it is a huge responsibility and at no point should we or they forget that these decisions are impacting primarily kids. Children who are trying to please the adults in their lives. And people "in the know" have a huge responsibility to these kids and to the sport. Most of us don't want all levels of USAG to turn into a genetic screening of 4 and 5 years olds for optimum elite potential, and a closed door to the rest of the kids who want to compete in this sport. But there are gyms and coaches out there who would be perfectly happy with this, if they can get it to pay the bills.

Methinks you spend much time on computer games?? Life is rarely black and white, it's very often more shades of gray. Yes in sports the rules try to make it as objective and fair as possible, but I see gray in most sports I can think of.

The day that we turn these beautiful athletes into gymbots whose performance can be measured by a computer is the day I will stop watching. If I found that interesting, I'd watch computer simulated sports. PS, as you can probably guess I find most computer games to be a yawn.

No, my opinions aren't coming from a throwback to days that I wasn't alive or don't really remember gymnastics... I don't really have time to do much research on the good old days....or bad old days. Whatever they were.

 

[aerialriver]

I don't think it happens because gymnastics is so hard that they simply cannot help it in most cases.

I can completely understand if you need to claw your fingers, extend your tongue, contort your face, squeeze your eyes shut, mutter to yourself, tap you left knee twice, twist your toes into the carpet or any ritual you may need to do before your quad twisting triple layout full double sow cow. We all do it.

But after noticing the lovely picture of level 3's , 4's mods, tumble tots etc. in every position from starting the routine to the awards stand, in practice and in competition in my lovely bathroom gymnastics magazine this afternoon I have come to the conclusion that the clawey hands, stiffness and general ugliness is a style and it is taught from a young age. with USAG's recent more ballet like changes I wonder if this may not change the tread.

 

[acm1289]

Kind of off topic but then again maybe not... Anyone else bothered by the line in the movie "stick it" where she says "if you're gonna eat mat, eat mat hard" ... talk about encouraging kids to get hurt! Not okay in my book!

 

[Kiwi]

How do you define artistry in gymnastics?Is it:
a-graceful flow of movement,aesthetically pleasing physical expression of emotion?

In that case,Geoffrey Taucer is 100% right on the mark.This type of artistry has NO place in sport.If we wish to be awakened to the beauty of existence through splendid physical skills then we go to the Cirque du Soleil,their performance is SPLENDID ! Magnificient art.
?

Yes, this is artistry, and it used to have a place, it is why the sport is called 'Artistic' gymnastics, and yes, it used to be a beautiful performance like Cirque. If this has no place in the modern day sport, it should be renamed to something else - maybe 'Power Gymnastics' or 'Stunt Gymnastics' or 'Acrobatic Gymnastics'. What a shame.

 

[Kiwi]

EDIT 2: Reading through the thread again, it seems like several people here are conflating the question of artistry with that of difficulty.

How artistic a routine is and how difficult it is.... these are two completely unrelated variables. There is zero connection between how difficult a routine is and how artistic it is.

It was Dunno who was making the connection - that the more difficult a routine is, the less the gymnast is able to focus on artistry because all their attention is taking up just surviving the difficult tumbling passes.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

It was Dunno who was making the connection - that the more difficult a routine is, the less the gymnast is able to focus on artistry because all their attention is taking up just surviving the difficult tumbling passes.

thank you! and not to further offend midwestgymmom which was not my intention, but gymnastics is the hardest sport a kid can do. the scientists have said so as far as human performance. and the female gymnast does 4 distinct events. and the men do 6 making it harder than the women. and THEN you have all that goes into the training of.

now there is video out of Simone doing a double double as a beam dismount. i don't know WHY this is so hard for some to understand. no other art or sport is gymnastics. diving is the only other with significant margin of error the higher the difficulty. and you can get hurt in water.

but having done some diving, and having done gymnastics in musical theater in my youth and college, i'll say it again...if anyone in dancing says that anything that they do is equally difficult, as Simone facing down a 2ble 2ble at the end of a '90 second chock full of everything high level beam routine' then they just don't understand the physical demands of a gymnast. it's that simple. and i won't continue to educate on this subject matter.

and i don't disrespect dancers. i respect their work. years of training to get the "look" that they do. but if i go in to battle that requires extreme human performance...i want a gymnast at my back. that's all.

finally, Kiwi gets it. the FIG is at fault for changing what gymnastics was. and the 2 in charge are Nellie and Bruno. 1 has brains...and the other not so much. and the coaches will still be the ones to police and control what we do cause most of us know better. and this is why USAG has the level system. certain controls/restrictions in place as the athlete sequentially progresses.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and an additional point. presidents phys ed testing that takes place in every school in America. who is at the top of those charts? the gymnasts! and because you have fewer boys than girls involved in gymnastics, some of those top scores are from male and female gymnasts from the same school who most likely have a gym nearby where they both go. if there are no male gymnasts? it's the GIRLS. NOT the dancers. and this is a scientific conclusion...not a coincidence.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Kind of off topic but then again maybe not... Anyone else bothered by the line in the movie "stick it" where she says "if you're gonna eat mat, eat mat hard" ... talk about encouraging kids to get hurt! Not okay in my book!

if you're a coach, you know that's the language that the kids use. like 'face plant' or 'beam bite'. it only has meaning to the gymnast. doesn't encourage kids to get hurt. that's a stretch...

 

[Jen H.]

and an additional point. presidents phys ed testing that takes place in every school in America. who is at the top of those charts? the gymnasts! and because you have fewer boys than girls involved in gymnastics, some of those top scores are from male and female gymnasts from the same school who most likely have a gym nearby where they both go. if there are no male gymnasts? it's the GIRLS. NOT the dancers. and this is a scientific conclusion...not a coincidence.

Very true! My girl holds the school record in its 50 year history for fastest run, # of sit-ups, and # of push-ups for both boys and girls. The only close contender was another girl- also a gymnast.

 

[kandkfunk]

and an additional point. presidents phys ed testing that takes place in every school in America. who is at the top of those charts? the gymnasts! and because you have fewer boys than girls involved in gymnastics, some of those top scores are from male and female gymnasts from the same school who most likely have a gym nearby where they both go. if there are no male gymnasts? it's the GIRLS. NOT the dancers. and this is a scientific conclusion...not a coincidence.

So true Dunno! My DD actually quit doing situps and pushups during testing one year because she reached the max number that could be entered into the computer.

The way I am taking this thread is that some people think that only the graceful, flowing type of dance is artistic. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is the impression I am getting. But, just like there are many difference types of dance, there are different types of artistry in gymnastics. One of my all-time favorite NCAA gymnasts, Lloimincia Hall, probably wouldn't be considered artistic if that term is reserved for the graceful dancers. However, I think she is one of the most entertaining and artistic gymnasts, especially on FX. Her dance, tumbling and presentation obviously mean something to her and inspires strong reactions in viewers (both negative and positive), which to me is artistic. Not to mention, she is one of the most powerfull tumblers in college today.

 

[Gymdaddio]

presidents phys ed testing that takes place in every school in America.

They still have this? Do they still test who can handle the most torture? Also known as the Flexed-Arm Hang Test. Wow, that could build up some serious lactic acid in your biceps.

 

[acm1289]

if you're a coach, you know that's the language that the kids use. like 'face plant' or 'beam bite'. it only has meaning to the gymnast. doesn't encourage kids to get hurt. that's a stretch...

The movie came out while I was competing at optional levels and the message it sent pretty clear to myself and many of the other girls i was competing with is "reward harder tricks even if they aren't done well" and "being safe is stupid, you're in gymnastics, just throw that hard trick!" I know exactly what it means to "eat mat" or get a "beam bite" but why on earth would anyone ever want to encourage these things?? Yes, that is how many gymnasts get hurt.

 

[JBS]

The movie came out while I was competing at optional levels and the message it sent pretty clear to myself and many of the other girls i was competing with is "reward harder tricks even if they aren't done well" and "being safe is stupid, you're in gymnastics, just throw that hard trick!" I know exactly what it means to "eat mat" or get a "beam bite" but why on earth would anyone ever want to encourage these things?? Yes, that is how many gymnasts get hurt.

So I guess everything in movies is encouraging people to do things??? WOW!...wondering why I almost robbed that bank the other day.

 

[aerialriver]

Dunno, where can I see this video of Simone?