WAG Addressing the Lack of Artistry in Current Gymnastics

[Midwestmommy]

"now there is video out of Simone doing a double double as a beam dismount. i don't know WHY this is so hard for some to understand. no other art or sport is gymnastics. diving is the only other with significant margin of error the higher the difficulty. and you can get hurt in water."

We're not failing to understand you, Dunno. Who the heck do you think pays the bills for gymnastics injuries? By the way we--what you consider "nongymnastics people"-- parents who are the biggest fans and supporters of USAG and our own gymnasts, whose kids spend many hours a week at the gym, who pay for kids and ourselves to get into meets, and who pay the other bills... We take the financial liability for the vast majority of the injuries resulting from this sport too (it cost my employer over $20,000 after my $2,000 out of pocket limit in 2012). So please don't tell me I don't understand the difficulty or danger of the sport, OK?

Just because I don't agree with you on every point doesn't meant I don't understand you. I think you are failing to understand the point if many of my posts as well, but that's OK. Ever seen a World Cup downhill race? Seen any crashes? Gymnasts are not the only amazing athletes. And at least elite skiiers are consenting adults.

 

[MyHappyLife]

Simone's double double beam dismount:

<iframe title="Simone Biles throws a DOUBLE DOUBLE OFF BEAM!!" width="420" height="240" src="http://www.gymnastike.org/embed/ODI2NzI0NjU3?related=1&autoplay=false" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen scrolling="no"></iframe><p><a href="http://www.gymnastike.org/coverage/250702-Beyond-the-Routine">Watch more video of Beyond the Routine on gymnastike.org</a></p>

 

[Dr Maleficent]

" One of my all-time favorite NCAA gymnasts, Lloimincia Hall, probably wouldn't be considered artistic if that term is reserved for the graceful dancers. "

(looks around intrepidly before dipping toe into murky waters)
ok, here goes my 2 centimes - gymnastics is a sport, but like many sports has much beauty (eg they call football the beautiful game and even though it's not my thing I can see why certain plays would justify this). The beauty adds to the enjoyment and aesthetic pleasure, and in some circumstances in gymnastics to the score as well. I watched the video of Lloimincia Hall posted above and loved it, because the movements that she did in between the tumbles were real - they added something to the performance. For me the weird twisting of hands or sticking out of legs that some gymnasts clearly feel they have to add in between doing the 'real' gymnastics just often looks out of place and is frequently not particularly aesthetically pleasing.
I think gymnastics, done well, is beautiful in and of itself and needs no funny gestures in between tumbling passes. However if a gymnast is going to do what Lloimincia does and enhance the aesthetic pleasure by doing something interesting and creative between the amazing tumbles that is great too. I would vote for leaving out the in-between stuff that is neither gymnastics nor dance that you see in a lot of routines.
I totally agree with the above comments about the difference between difficulty and danger - you absolutely cannot say that a particular gymnastics move is objectively more difficult than playing for example certain piano pieces - they require completely different skill sets, but of course the gymnastics move is vastly more exhausting and infinitely more dangerous!
(retreats under duvet)

 

[Deleted member 15064]

Dunno, where can I see this video of Simone?

http://www.gymnastike.org/embed/ODI2NzI0NjU3?related=1&autoplay=false

 

[Deleted member D3987]

"now there is video out of Simone doing a double double as a beam dismount. i don't know WHY this is so hard for some to understand. no other art or sport is gymnastics. diving is the only other with significant margin of error the higher the difficulty. and you can get hurt in water."

We're not failing to understand you, Dunno. Who the heck do you think pays the bills for gymnastics injuries? By the way we--what you consider "nongymnastics people"-- parents who are the biggest fans and supporters of USAG and our own gymnasts, whose kids spend many hours a week at the gym, who pay for kids and ourselves to get into meets, and who pay the other bills... We take the financial liability for the vast majority of the injuries resulting from this sport too (it cost my employer over $20,000 after my $2,000 out of pocket limit in 2012). So please don't tell me I don't understand the difficulty or danger of the sport, OK?

Just because I don't agree with you on every point doesn't meant I don't understand you. I think you are failing to understand the point if many of my posts as well, but that's OK. Ever seen a World Cup downhill race? Seen any crashes? Gymnasts are not the only amazing athletes. And at least elite skiiers are consenting adults.

1. could not agree with you more.

2. what the heck is going on there?

3. i never said danger. i said difficulty.

4. and that sport is dangerous and not difficult.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

" One of my all-time favorite NCAA gymnasts, Lloimincia Hall, probably wouldn't be considered artistic if that term is reserved for the graceful dancers. "

(looks around intrepidly before dipping toe into murky waters)
ok, here goes my 2 centimes - gymnastics is a sport, but like many sports has much beauty (eg they call football the beautiful game and even though it's not my thing I can see why certain plays would justify this). The beauty adds to the enjoyment and aesthetic pleasure, and in some circumstances in gymnastics to the score as well. I watched the video of Lloimincia Hall posted above and loved it, because the movements that she did in between the tumbles were real - they added something to the performance. For me the weird twisting of hands or sticking out of legs that some gymnasts clearly feel they have to add in between doing the 'real' gymnastics just often looks out of place and is frequently not particularly aesthetically pleasing.
I think gymnastics, done well, is beautiful in and of itself and needs no funny gestures in between tumbling passes. However if a gymnast is going to do what Lloimincia does and enhance the aesthetic pleasure by doing something interesting and creative between the amazing tumbles that is great too. I would vote for leaving out the in-between stuff that is neither gymnastics nor dance that you see in a lot of routines.
I totally agree with the above comments about the difference between difficulty and danger - you absolutely cannot say that a particular gymnastics move is objectively more difficult than playing for example certain piano pieces - they require completely different skill sets, but of course the gymnastics move is vastly more exhausting and infinitely more dangerous!
(retreats under duvet)

didn't know what a "duvet" was until i got married. lol. and piano i know something about. again, no comparison whether subjective or objective.

 

[Midwestmommy]

4. Dunno, you can't be serious? Elite downhill skiing (in particular downhill) is not difficult? I completely and utterly disagree. Just staying on the course at 80 miles per hour is enormously difficult. The difficulty of skiing down difficult courses they set up at 80+ mph is about as comparable to my last outing at Vail as you doing a summersault is to a high level elite tumbling pass.


2. Sixty percent of U.S. employees (including my family) are covered under their employer's health insurance are in self funded plans. The vast majority of employers with over 1,000 employees are self funded. The employer does not buy health insurance. The employer pays someone to process the claims and rents a network, but the coverage is not insured, it's self funded. Claims come right out of the employer's bank account. They buy "insurance" only for very big claims (such as when an individual incurrs over $250,000 in claims in a year)....

So yep, the parents' employers in most cases are footing the bill for U.S. sports injuries.... Jeez though you would know who is REALLY paying for all the collateral sports injury damage of U.S. youth.... It's a sizeable amount of money.... but nothing compare to the cost of transplants, premies, dialysis, high cost Rx that can run over $1M per year for one person.... ALL medical bills these days are quite costly.....there are hospitals in Northern California that bill over $20,000 a day for an inpatient stay. And employers pay two to six times more than the government pays for Medicare or Medicaid for the exact same services at the exact same healthcare providers....

 

[Midwestmommy]

OK, I have to correct myself. "Billed charges" were over $20,000. I paid $2,000, employer $6,000. But still.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/h...ds-the-world-in-health-expenditures.html?_r=0

 

[Midwestmommy]

And I will come claim and admit a chunk of the cost was, of course, an MRI and follow up xrays..... I would guess that there are zero statistics available on the cost of injury treatment for gymnastics, football or any other sports due to patient privacy. Even universities only know what they cover for insurance for athletes and costs not covered by insurance.... Most of their injury costs are also covered by parents' employers plans, that's my understanding anyway.

 

[Midwestmommy]

This is now way off topic, but here is a very wild guess for annual costs for a level 10 team of 15 gymnasts:

4 no medical costs at all - $0

7 with just iboprofen some home supplies $50 each 7 X 50 = $350

3 some ortho visits, X-rays, PT for some more minor injuries or concerns $2,500 each 3 X 2,500 = $7,500

2 surgery and follow up xrays and visits at ave $15,000 each 2 X 15,000 = $30,000

Grand total: $37,850 medical care costs

So let's say, not counting meet fees, attire or travel, each Level 10 pays $500 per month gym fees.

$500*15*12 = $90,000 in gym fees paid by this level 10 team

The $37,850 is an additional 42% cost paid by parents and/or their employers. There is a good reason we sign those waivers, there is no way gyms can cover these costs in the U.S. And one serious injury and surgery could easily surpass the $37,500 themselves in some areas of the country over a year if there are a couple surgeries..

Just curious for Canadian gymnastics folks on this board, how do gymnasts deal with the access issue in Canada for specialists (or isn't there a problem)??

 

[Dr Maleficent]

I am very grateful for the NHS in the UK and the Secu in France. And before anyone comments on waiting lists (for the UK), just reflect on the fact that at least the care is there for everyone, whether or not they have the financial resources.

 

[Guenhwyvar132]

So true Dunno! My DD actually quit doing situps and pushups during testing one year because she reached the max number that could be entered into the computer.

The way I am taking this thread is that some people think that only the graceful, flowing type of dance is artistic. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is the impression I am getting. But, just like there are many difference types of dance, there are different types of artistry in gymnastics. One of my all-time favorite NCAA gymnasts, Lloimincia Hall, probably wouldn't be considered artistic if that term is reserved for the graceful dancers. However, I think she is one of the most entertaining and artistic gymnasts, especially on FX. Her dance, tumbling and presentation obviously mean something to her and inspires strong reactions in viewers (both negative and positive), which to me is artistic. Not to mention, she is one of the most powerfull tumblers in college today.

I don't feel artistry needs to be graceful I just like them to own it and do the moves 100% just like the girl in this video. I feel a lot of the half hearted poses are a bore to watch. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

4. Dunno, you can't be serious? Elite downhill skiing (in particular downhill) is not difficult? I completely and utterly disagree. Just staying on the course at 80 miles per hour is enormously difficult. The difficulty of skiing down difficult courses they set up at 80+ mph is about as comparable to my last outing at Vail as you doing a summersault is to a high level elite tumbling pass.


2. Sixty percent of U.S. employees (including my family) are covered under their employer's health insurance are in self funded plans. The vast majority of employers with over 1,000 employees are self funded. The employer does not buy health insurance. The employer pays someone to process the claims and rents a network, but the coverage is not insured, it's self funded. Claims come right out of the employer's bank account. They buy "insurance" only for very big claims (such as when an individual incurrs over $250,000 in claims in a year)....

So yep, the parents' employers in most cases are footing the bill for U.S. sports injuries.... Jeez though you would know who is REALLY paying for all the collateral sports injury damage of U.S. youth.... It's a sizeable amount of money.... but nothing compare to the cost of transplants, premies, dialysis, high cost Rx that can run over $1M per year for one person.... ALL medical bills these days are quite costly.....there are hospitals in Northern California that bill over $20,000 a day for an inpatient stay. And employers pay two to six times more than the government pays for Medicare or Medicaid for the exact same services at the exact same healthcare providers....

1. i don't agree that "elite" skiing is difficult. takes good stamina and precision and reflexes. those are only 3 of the million things that gymnasts require. and that sport is MORE dangerous. and i was very specific. i said stunt skiing. they go MORE than 80 mph and do Millers! you are getting ridiculous.

2. WE ALL pay for each others claims. what the heck are you talking about. you think your 'health product' is in a vacuum? and i pay almost $2,000 per month as a premium with a $5,000 deductible for just my wife and me in an EHP/PPO. so quit your griping. you sound like my sister complaining about having to pay a premium of $235 per month for a family of five with a $500 deductible in a major municipality. and i know a hospital in another state where it was $82,000 for less than 24 hours. again, what's your point?? that you support your daughter in all that she does in gymnastics while getting broken?? you've lost me. i raised mine in to adulthood and spent plenty and never griped. and had they never done ANYTHING, i was still paying for everyone else for their families to receive medical care.

3. and you completely missed my tongue in check. if you're spending that kind of money on your kid for medical, did you think that maybe something might be wrong?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

And I will come claim and admit a chunk of the cost was, of course, an MRI and follow up xrays..... I would guess that there are zero statistics available on the cost of injury treatment for gymnastics, football or any other sports due to patient privacy. Even universities only know what they cover for insurance for athletes and costs not covered by insurance.... Most of their injury costs are also covered by parents' employers plans, that's my understanding anyway.

there ARE statistics on costs and which ones have the most injuries, days in the hospital, etc;

the universities know EXACTLY what they spend on injuries including insurance.

and your understanding about employer plans is incorrect also. and some people have individual plans. and if you want neither, the university/college etc; make it a requirement to purchase insurance thru the school.

and my MRI costs me $1600 cause i have a high ded. plan. unless "of course" i pay in/fulfill my $5,000 deductible. then "of course" it's free (oxymoron when you pay almost $2.000 per month premium) after 5 grand.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This is now way off topic, but here is a very wild guess for annual costs for a level 10 team of 15 gymnasts:

4 no medical costs at all - $0

7 with just iboprofen some home supplies $50 each 7 X 50 = $350

3 some ortho visits, X-rays, PT for some more minor injuries or concerns $2,500 each 3 X 2,500 = $7,500

2 surgery and follow up xrays and visits at ave $15,000 each 2 X 15,000 = $30,000

Grand total: $37,850 medical care costs

So let's say, not counting meet fees, attire or travel, each Level 10 pays $500 per month gym fees.

$500*15*12 = $90,000 in gym fees paid by this level 10 team

The $37,850 is an additional 42% cost paid by parents and/or their employers. There is a good reason we sign those waivers, there is no way gyms can cover these costs in the U.S. And one serious injury and surgery could easily surpass the $37,500 themselves in some areas of the country over a year if there are a couple surgeries..

Just curious for Canadian gymnastics folks on this board, how do gymnasts deal with the access issue in Canada for specialists (or isn't there a problem)??

somehow i think you are serious as a heart attack. and your going to give me one. WE ALL pay for those costs. old system or new system. WE ALL pay for each others costs. clearly, you do not understand how it works. and WAIVERS have NOTHING to do with the subject matter. THOSE are for deflecting liability. Club owners have liability insurance. and who pays for THAT? WE ALL DO! even if your kid(s) does not take gymnastics.

you're like my sister who thinks that programs are cheaper at the park district. until i told her to take a look at her property tax bill that includes and itemizes the park portion. then i told her to divide that by 12. then i told her she is paying that even if SHE HAS NO CHILDREN AND DOESN'T USE ANY PARK SERVICES. THEN ADD ON THE COST OF THE PROGRAM. well guess what? her kids taking gymnastics cost double of what it costs in a gym. but what about those families that have no children? THAT'S RIGHT! THEY ARE PAYING/SUBSIDIZING FOR MY SISTER'S CHILDREN TO TAKE GYMNASTICS! WE ALL PAY!! AND FOR EACH OTHER!!!

and you think that "gyms" should be covering your costs for your child to be involved in an extra curricular activity? it's not how the system works. and what do you know about what are costs are? and gyms are already covering the costs as an industry SO THAT YOUR KID CAN DO GYMNASTICS! WE ALL PAY!! AND FOR EACH OTHER!!!

and i honestly don't think you understand how the American system works. or any other system for that matter. you know, before the ACA, those of us with money paid for all those emergency room visits for people who did not have health insurance. and charity took care of some and the rest written off by Docs and Hospitals alike. and guess what? nothing will change. unless the GOV throws people in jail for not having health insurance (where of course we all will pay for those 3 hots and a cot as we do now for prisoners) those with any money will still be footing the bill. we all pay. and for each other. and the more money you earn? you pay more. it's how the system works. before and now.

honestly, this is so far off the reservation i'm not sure i'll find my way back.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I am very grateful for the NHS in the UK and the Secu in France. And before anyone comments on waiting lists (for the UK), just reflect on the fact that at least the care is there for everyone, whether or not they have the financial resources.

waiting lists really have nothing to do with it. but if you have an urgent or exigent medical condition, it is true that some of you die before you can get care.

what is important is that you understand that your entire population pays for each other to have health care. you don't have it in a vacuum. and in part, your costs are paid for by the wealthy who can afford the higher "tax" that you pay for which is with held from your paychecks just as it is here. you pay a percentage of how much you make.

same here in the states. it's really very similar. but the new ACA changes nothing. we will still have the 'haves' and have nots. and the haves will still be paying for the have nots.

and here is another thing to think about. and why government is evil and we all must rely on each other. did you know when my wife buys cheese and wine from France that i am contributing to your health care? it's called GDP. the higher your GDP the lower your living costs which leaves all that disposable income for you to pay that percentage of your income for health care (right down the GOV toilet). therefore, we all pay for each other. my wine and cheese purchases from France contribute to your overall well being.

and if you guys over there buy a ton of our stuff? same thing. GDP goes way up pushing down our living costs and leaving us with more money that can we pay for health care. or a fancy car. therefore, you all in France are paying for my health care also. and at least 1 persons fancy car in that of which is NOT me. so, you all contribute to my overall well being when you purchase from the US.

look at what we ALL do for all those oil producing nations. they are paid for NOT working. it's a beautiful thing. eh? and they have excellent health care. and WE All AS FUEL CONSUMING NATIONS are paying for their health care also.

this is how the world works. we take care of each other without realizing what is exactly is going on. and the GOV's screw us and take more and more of our money. and not all for good things. and the oil companies are even worse.

so please, in the grand scheme of things, let's not bring in to it how much it costs to do ANY sport. it's an endless discussion. AS IS WHAT IT COSTS TO LIVE UNTIL DEATH DO US PART.

 

[Kiwi]

This thread is kind of going a bit off topic. Here is what the FIG code of points has to say about artistry on floor (sorry, rather long):

"ARTISTRY
Artistic Performance
An artistic performance is one in which the gymnast demonstrates her ability to transform her floor exercise routine from a well-structured composition into an artistic performance. In so doing the gymnast must demonstrate a strong choreographic flow, artistry, expressiveness, musicality and perfect technique.
The main objective is to create and present a unique and well-balanced artistic gymnastic composition by combining the body movements and expression of the gymnast harmoniously with the theme and character of the music

Composition and Choreography
The composition of a floor exercise is based on the movement vocabulary of the gymnast, as well as the choreography of those elements and movements, that is, the mapping out of the body's movements, both gymnastic and artistic, over space and time in relationship to the floor exercise area and in harmony with the selected music.
The choreography should be developed such that one movement flows smoothly into the next with contrasts in the speed and intensity.
Creative choreography, that is the originality of the composition of elements and movements, means that the exercise has been constructed and is performed using new ideas, forms, interpretations and originality, thereby avoiding copying and monotony.
The design, structure and composition of the exercise includes:
A rich and varied selection of elements from different structure groups in the table of elements
Changes of level (up and down)
Changes of direction (fwd, bwd, swd and curves)
Creative or original movements, connections and transitions.
This is “what” the gymnast performs.

Expression
Expression can be defined generally as the attitude and range of emotion exhibited by the gymnast with both her face and through her body. This includes how a gymnast generally presents herself and connects with the jury and public, as well as her ability to control/manage her expression during the performance of the most difficult and complex movements. It is also her ability to play a role or a character throughout the performance. In addition to the technical execution, artistic harmony and feminine grace must also be considered.
It is not only “what” the gymnast performs, but also “how” she performs her routine.

Music
The music must be flawless, without any abrupt cuts, and must contribute a sense of unity to the overall composition and performance of the exercise. It should flow and must have a clear start and clear finish. The chosen music must also help to highlight the unique characteristics and style of the gymnast. The character of the music should provide the guiding idea/theme of the composition.
There must be a direct correlation between the movements and the music. The accompaniment should be personalized to the gymnast and must contribute to the overall artistry and perfection of her performance.

Musicality
Musicality is the ability of the gymnast to interpret the music and to demonstrate not only its rhythm and speed, but its flow, shape, intensity and passion.
The music must support the performance and through her movements, the gymnast, must convey the theme of the music to the audience and jury.

And the deductions are:
Artistry of Performance
– Insufficient artistry of performance throughout the entire exercise (Expressiveness, confidence,
style, personality and uniqueness)
– Inability to play a role or a character throughout the performance
– Performance of the entire exercise as a series of disconnected elements & movements
Composition and Choreography
– Lack of creativity of movements and transitions
– Weak relationship between music and movements in the composition of the exercise"

I thought the girl in the video (Lloimincia) did show artistry because she gave an expressive performance in character, with lots of personality, and movements that were connected and related to the music.

 

[Faith]

This is Catherine Lyons, A GB espoir who is currently being hailed as an "artistic" gymnast, and frequently wins "most artistic gymnast" at comps.



Now I don't like this routine. It's too "contemporary dance" for me, lots of wafting around :lol: (Does that make it artistic? The fact that art is subjective and some love it, some not :lol Again we're back to body type, Catherine is relatively tall, with the long lean build that seems to automatically be associated with balletic dance.

IMO there's just too much tumbling in todays routines to have time to fit in any dance. There's need to be a change in the rules to limit tumbling passes and elements, or make the routines longer...

This is something that popped up on my Facebook feed recently;

. It's acro, but I think the routine structure gives more allowance for interpretation and dance alongside the gymnastics.

 

[Learning Parent GB]

I couldn't not reply on that Catherine Lyons routine. I don't mind the wafting and I like the fact that the style is consistent throughout the piece. But it is a teribble cut of music and although the dance might be in the spirit of the music overall, none of it is in time or coordinated to the music that is playing at the time. I think she does it very well but the choreography is terrible. Overall it gives a really bad impression to me because I am just willing her to get in sync with the music. Yet 'people' are heralding it as brilliant choreography. So there is clearly a lot of subjectivity to this. (If I Watched it without the soundtrack I would be a fan I think).


ETA: I just watched that acro routine. That was artistic to me. It went with the music stylistically and rhythmically.

 

[Natalia]

waiting lists really have nothing to do with it. but if you have an urgent or exigent medical condition, it is true that some of you die before you can get care.

what is important is that you understand that your entire population pays for each other to have health care. you don't have it in a vacuum. and in part, your costs are paid for by the wealthy who can afford the higher "tax" that you pay for which is with held from your paychecks just as it is here. you pay a percentage of how much you make.

same here in the states. it's really very similar. but the new ACA changes nothing. we will still have the 'haves' and have nots. and the haves will still be paying for the have nots.

and here is another thing to think about. and why government is evil and we all must rely on each other. did you know when my wife buys cheese and wine from France that i am contributing to your health care? it's called GDP. the higher your GDP the lower your living costs which leaves all that disposable income for you to pay that percentage of your income for health care (right down the GOV toilet). therefore, we all pay for each other. my wine and cheese purchases from France contribute to your overall well being.

and if you guys over there buy a ton of our stuff? same thing. GDP goes way up pushing down our living costs and leaving us with more money that can we pay for health care. or a fancy car. therefore, you all in France are paying for my health care also. and at least 1 persons fancy car in that of which is NOT me. so, you all contribute to my overall well being when you purchase from the US.

look at what we ALL do for all those oil producing nations. they are paid for NOT working. it's a beautiful thing. eh? and they have excellent health care. and WE All AS FUEL CONSUMING NATIONS are paying for their health care also.

this is how the world works. we take care of each other without realizing what is exactly is going on. and the GOV's screw us and take more and more of our money. and not all for good things. and the oil companies are even worse.

so please, in the grand scheme of things, let's not bring in to it how much it costs to do ANY sport. it's an endless discussion. AS IS WHAT IT COSTS TO LIVE UNTIL DEATH DO US PART.

Clap!Clap!Clap! on the macro economics.

Huge thumbs down on your evaluation of waiting times.

My non gymnast daughter twisted her ankle,we waited 17 minutes at the E.R before having Xrays MRI and an evaluation by a traumatologist.

Other DD has a tumy ache,after the third day I called the doc. 25 minutes later the doc was at my house,he was worried about a possible apendicitis.

Vive la France.

How much does this cost me?HUGE amounts of taxes.

Sorry back to gymnastics