Parents Advice, gym fit, level 4

[HannahBanana]

My girl is headed toward last few meets of her season level 4 at new gym, and I am sorting thru some fear and disappointment that we may have made poor choice in moving her this season - to a large, reputable gym with strong elite program. There were several reasons we felt at the time this was right, primarily that she wanted more challenge, upskilling and opportunity we perceived to be available here/were told by others was available here. Boy was I wrong and do I feel badly. She went from amazing form and scores (top scores of whole meets, level 3, first year competing, extraordinary amount of raw talent) to making form and text errors and busting her butt to try to make her qualifying scores in 4 to skip to 6. I am deeply disappointed with inconsistent coaching, lack of attention to detail, stagnant scores, and her confidence getting crushed. She doesn’t necessarily want to switch again and I never thought we’d be in this position. But I have zero confidence in gym at the moment and am having a very hard time managing the idea that she’s getting lost in the shuffle and won’t live up to potential. There are basic skills they just haven’t taught to her that are affecting her scores greatly. (Like not doing any drills whatsoever for underswing dismount or getting casts up to horizontal). Absolutely not enough focused time spent during practice on routines, etc. I guess my question is - is this a known secret that big elite gyms really can’t or don’t focus on the majority of girls growing thru the levels? Are there other reasons for this plateau that I shouldn’t be so quick to blame on the gym or coaching? Yes I know level 4 scoring is hard. I know I am biased. But like, this child taught herself her kip on the school playground early level 3. Started press handstanding before even joining gymnastics. Is incredible under pressure. Loves the sport so much. OlMy girl is truthfully the most athletic child I have seen in my life, and I see zero reason for current performance except that she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know and the coaches aren’t fixing things. (And I have some evidence of this from other parents needing to use meet critique to discover missing elements and basically fix it themselves.) I don’t even see a point in coach conversation at this point. I just want to leave. Is this a matter of admitting my mistake and making plans (to talk to old gym and/or check out new reputable option with better program) and persuading her this is what we need to do? She likes her teammates and current gym, but also has been so crushed and confused about her performance and I think I may need to lead on this decision as she’s only 8.

 

[ORgymmom]

1) our champion level 3s often struggled in level 4. More skills and elements= more room for deductions

2) a gym focused on scoring out is going to focus on scoring out and not necessarily level 4. Are they uptraining right now? My child was not on that track but the girls that were going to 6 or 7 from 4 were flipping vaults, doing front and back tucks, and doing cast handstands during the level 4 season. If that’s not happening it seems pointless.

3) does the new gym have a strong pre-team program? The few girls who joined our gym just as level 3 started as playground phenoms got skills before the girls who had been around for a while. But their shapes and strength took a couple of years to catch up to the girls who had done pre-team and they had way more injuries.

Someone here says “go slow to go fast”, and even though it feels good to be fast-tracked and skip levels and be whisked through compulsories because a coach says a kid is talented, it can also set a gymnast up for failure. I’m probably biased because my kid was not identified as talented enough to be a level skipper, but compulsories and their skill progressions exist for a reason and gyms that ignore it need to have their own really strong progressions.

 

[gym_dad32608]

I find these posts difficult to answer. I have been in this long enough with my DD to see the arc of so many girls starting and ending. Its difficult to fully tell the answer of "Am I right or am I wrong" posts when you are only hearing one side and have no other point of reference. But what I can tell you from what I have seen from Level 3 to L10 committed junior are a couple of things.

• Getting caught up in performance at L3 or L4 and extrapolating it out as my DD is "gifted" is fools gold. There are too many variables, some you can control, like gym, support, etc and some that you cannot, like injuries, growth changes, mental blocks, loss of interest etc that ultimately dictate the finishing line. I (and I am sure many on here) can relate plenty of stories of girls on national TOPS teams, crushing through L7 and then just quitting or just losing that skill growth curve. So unless a nationally known coach has come to you and singled out your DD, its best to trust the process and see how things progress, the majority may go through periods of slow growth followed by suddenly everything clicking.
• The selection of a gym is certainly important. When you say strong elite program, most gyms that do have elites are at very small numbers (like 2-3 girls at any one time) . With the exception of maybe WCC and WOGA. Otherwise, elites in many cases are the focus of a particular coach. That coach does not spend much time in the DP world, and elites tend to follow a coach versus a gym. Think Landi's at WCC. Laurent did coach a little in L10 but his focus was the elites. My point is looking at a gym at your stage I would be focused more on the quality of the DP program versus do they have X number of elites. There are many gyms that flat out say they have no interest in training an elite even though they have many talented DP gymnasts that could make that leap (TBT in Tampa does this). IDK if your new gym also has a track record of strong L10 teams that place in the national rankings. Those gyms tend to have a very robust training from L3 to L10 that does focus on development.
• At this early stage, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BECOME A GYM HOPPER PARENT. Unless it is an unsafe negative environment switching gyms because you do not see immediate results can be more detrimental. At that level/age, gymnasts need consistency 3 gyms in 3 years, even if going back to old gym is just a flag to many coaches and in my opinion can send the wrong message to the gymnast.

I know you only want to give her all the opportunity to maximize her potential. Just keep in mind those things that I have pointed out. Questions I would be asking is how long have those coaches been in those roles? If more than 5 years, what is the track record of L10 gymnasts? How big is their upper level optional program which could indicate a strong development pipeline from lower levels. Good luck

 

[NutterButter]

You mention she’s been working hard to get her qualifying score to go to L6…has she achieved this? If so, sounds like she’s doing just fine L4 even if she hasn’t enjoyed the same level of success as she did at L3. Does your gym skip L5 all together? Like if she doesn’t get the qualification score will she repeat L4?

I really like everything that @gym_dad32608 said. I would emphasize when he says to look at your gyms DP program separate from the elites. Look at mymeetscores to see how the team as a whole performs at each level paying attention to how the upper levels perform. I live in an area with a few elite gyms. One of them does not have a good DP program while the others are strong and place in the top 3 for team scores at nearly every meet.

 

[BusyMomof2]

I won't repeat any of the other good feedback you've already received, but I think the "raw talent" label leads to this kind of frustration. We are also consistently told this about our daughter yet I do not see this talent always translate to easy success for her as it did in the lower levels. If your gym has a solid optionals program, she's enjoying the sport, the logistics are doable and the environment is positive, I would not move right now. If she makes it to level 10, you will not be able to tell who had great success in level 4, who repeated, or who scored out with only weeks of practice.

I don't know how to address the lack of corrections you're seeing without more context. For my daughter, I only see a tiny piece of the puzzle (very end of practice on some days and her performance at meets) so I really have no idea what is said/instructed in practice. When my daughter was 8, corrections needed to be very clearly spelled out and demonstrated or she'd miss what was being communicated. We've learned that she does better with certain coaching styles over others and her ability to absorb corrections is definitely part of this (she's 11 now).

One other thing - when my daughter was learning the level 4 compulsory routines, she watched the videos obsessively to ensure she had every move right. Are you saying they are missing elements in their routines? That somewhat surprises me given how the routines are used for so many years.

 

[GymDadWA]

When you joined the bigger gym what were your honest expectations? Did some part of you expect that your gymnast would step into the bigger gym and just blow everyone away with her raw talent and with some polish she would fast track to elite?

I know this might sound counter intuitive but sometimes self taught skills can actually set the gymnast back long term. Like if they teach themselves a kip but it is with bent arms (muscle up) then getting into a good cast position is difficult, so the gymnast has to un-learn and re-learn the skill to move forward at least scores wise. This could be part of the reason she is not exceling the way you were expecting as she is going back a step so that she can go forward.

You say that she like the gym and likes her teammates, just not winning the awards you were expecting, so you might have to reevaluate what is really important. If her dream is to make level 10 / NCAA and the gym has a track record of getting gymnast there than you do need to trust that they know what they are doing and you don't understand the process. If the goal is to stand out in a gym and fast track to elite than you might have to find a smaller gym that home schools and has a coach that works extensive hours with individual gymnasts.

 

[HannahBanana]

1) our champion level 3s often struggled in level 4. More skills and elements= more room for deductions

2) a gym focused on scoring out is going to focus on scoring out and not necessarily level 4. Are they uptraining right now? My child was not on that track but the girls that were going to 6 or 7 from 4 were flipping vaults, doing front and back tucks, and doing cast handstands during the level 4 season. If that’s not happening it seems pointless.

3) does the new gym have a strong pre-team program? The few girls who joined our gym just as level 3 started as playground phenoms got skills before the girls who had been around for a while. But their shapes and strength took a couple of years to catch up to the girls who had done pre-team and they had way more injuries.

Someone here says “go slow to go fast”, and even though it feels good to be fast-tracked and skip levels and be whisked through compulsories because a coach says a kid is talented, it can also set a gymnast up for failure. I’m probably biased because my kid was not identified as talented enough to be a level skipper, but compulsories and their skill progressions exist for a reason and gyms that ignore it need to have their own really strong progressions.

Thanks for your response. Yes, definitely more room for deductions. But isn’t that where the lack of coaching comes in (to point out those simple deductions?). Girl has no idea why she’s scoring barely 9, on events she was able to bet 9.9 on last year.

They are doing some uptraining but maybe not enough clean drills for those skills. More chuck and throw. Which my daughter does not like.

I am not sure re: #3 but that raises a great point. Maybe the lack of early fundamentals is somehow catching up. Tho it reinforces me wanting to go back to a gym with better fundamentals. This is a good point and reminder to focus on work ethic, I’ve tried hard not to focus on achievement or set her up for perfectionism because she’s “good” and try to make it more about hard work. But when she is working very and with such great capability, and not able to get her scores, the only change from last year to this is the gym. // we’ve had team parents leave for similar reasons related to size and lack of structure. I’m really wishing I had done better due diligence at the outset.

 

[HannahBanana]

When you joined the bigger gym what were your honest expectations? Did some part of you expect that your gymnast would step into the bigger gym and just blow everyone away with her raw talent and with some polish she would fast track to elite?

I know this might sound counter intuitive but sometimes self taught skills can actually set the gymnast back long term. Like if they teach themselves a kip but it is with bent arms (muscle up) then getting into a good cast position is difficult, so the gymnast has to un-learn and re-learn the skill to move forward at least scores wise. This could be part of the reason she is not exceling the way you were expecting as she is going back a step so that she can go forward.

You say that she like the gym and likes her teammates, just not winning the awards you were expecting, so you might have to reevaluate what is really important. If her dream is to make level 10 / NCAA and the gym has a track record of getting gymnast there than you do need to trust that they know what they are doing and you don't understand the process. If the goal is to stand out in a gym and fast track to elite than you might have to find a smaller gym that home schools and has a coach that works extensive hours with individual gymnasts.

No not at all. She genuinely needed a greater challenge as she was bored and wanted to upskill plus do some of the testing programs. Plus some other things that deterred us from the style of the first gym which I haven’t articulated in this post.

She learned perfect straight arm kip. I don’t mean to sound like that obnoxious parent but it’s true. lol. But perhaps there are skills there she does need to relearn that I’m not aware of. And great thought re: focusing back in on goal. I will ask her. The gym does send girls to ncaa but many many quit before then and as a % it’s quite low compared to the other gyms I’ve been speaking about. Current gym seems to lose some talent along the way, maybe more so than others probably because of size.

 

[HannahBanana]

I find these posts difficult to answer. I have been in this long enough with my DD to see the arc of so many girls starting and ending. Its difficult to fully tell the answer of "Am I right or am I wrong" posts when you are only hearing one side and have no other point of reference. But what I can tell you from what I have seen from Level 3 to L10 committed junior are a couple of things.

• Getting caught up in performance at L3 or L4 and extrapolating it out as my DD is "gifted" is fools gold. There are too many variables, some you can control, like gym, support, etc and some that you cannot, like injuries, growth changes, mental blocks, loss of interest etc that ultimately dictate the finishing line. I (and I am sure many on here) can relate plenty of stories of girls on national TOPS teams, crushing through L7 and then just quitting or just losing that skill growth curve. So unless a nationally known coach has come to you and singled out your DD, its best to trust the process and see how things progress, the majority may go through periods of slow growth followed by suddenly everything clicking.
• The selection of a gym is certainly important. When you say strong elite program, most gyms that do have elites are at very small numbers (like 2-3 girls at any one time) . With the exception of maybe WCC and WOGA. Otherwise, elites in many cases are the focus of a particular coach. That coach does not spend much time in the DP world, and elites tend to follow a coach versus a gym. Think Landi's at WCC. Laurent did coach a little in L10 but his focus was the elites. My point is looking at a gym at your stage I would be focused more on the quality of the DP program versus do they have X number of elites. There are many gyms that flat out say they have no interest in training an elite even though they have many talented DP gymnasts that could make that leap (TBT in Tampa does this). IDK if your new gym also has a track record of strong L10 teams that place in the national rankings. Those gyms tend to have a very robust training from L3 to L10 that does focus on development.
• At this early stage, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BECOME A GYM HOPPER PARENT. Unless it is an unsafe negative environment switching gyms because you do not see immediate results can be more detrimental. At that level/age, gymnasts need consistency 3 gyms in 3 years, even if going back to old gym is just a flag to many coaches and in my opinion can send the wrong message to the gymnast.

I know you only want to give her all the opportunity to maximize her potential. Just keep in mind those things that I have pointed out. Questions I would be asking is how long have those coaches been in those roles? If more than 5 years, what is the track record of L10 gymnasts? How big is their upper level optional program which could indicate a strong development pipeline from lower levels. Good luck

Thanks for this response, it’s very helpful.

I would say they have a handful of strong elites and a decent group of 10s but many who dropped elite for 10 and majority of whom are transfers from elsewhere in the state or nationally. The number of home grown strong 10s is actually quite small now that I’m looking at it. For their reputation their optionals all score way lower at state championships than I would have thought. At every level 6-10. Which does concern me. They seem to have large attrition at various levels. I don’t mind changing again - I likely won’t again beyond that and may just do very careful research before making that decision so I don’t make similar errors. The alternative is to have her languish in repeat level 4 or scrape her way into 6 and also languish depending on what group they track her into, if she is not the very youngest (which they seem to do). Or maybe we stay and it will all work out.

 

[HannahBanana]

You mention she’s been working hard to get her qualifying score to go to L6…has she achieved this? If so, sounds like she’s doing just fine L4 even if she hasn’t enjoyed the same level of success as she did at L3. Does your gym skip L5 all together? Like if she doesn’t get the qualification score will she repeat L4?

I really like everything that @gym_dad32608 said. I would emphasize when he says to look at your gyms DP program separate from the elites. Look at mymeetscores to see how the team as a whole performs at each level paying attention to how the upper levels perform. I live in an area with a few elite gyms. One of them does not have a good DP program while the others are strong and place in the top 3 for team scores at nearly every meet.

Yes, they stopped doing 5 two years ago so it would be jump to 6 or repeat 4. That is great advice, thank you. For the one that does not have good DP do they just get transfers into elite?

 

[HannahBanana]

I won't repeat any of the other good feedback you've already received, but I think the "raw talent" label leads to this kind of frustration. We are also consistently told this about our daughter yet I do not see this talent always translate to easy success for her as it did in the lower levels. If your gym has a solid optionals program, she's enjoying the sport, the logistics are doable and the environment is positive, I would not move right now. If she makes it to level 10, you will not be able to tell who had great success in level 4, who repeated, or who scored out with only weeks of practice.

I don't know how to address the lack of corrections you're seeing without more context. For my daughter, I only see a tiny piece of the puzzle (very end of practice on some days and her performance at meets) so I really have no idea what is said/instructed in practice. When my daughter was 8, corrections needed to be very clearly spelled out and demonstrated or she'd miss what was being communicated. We've learned that she does better with certain coaching styles over others and her ability to absorb corrections is definitely part of this (she's 11 now).

One other thing - when my daughter was learning the level 4 compulsory routines, she watched the videos obsessively to ensure she had every move right. Are you saying they are missing elements in their routines? That somewhat surprises me given how the routines are used for so many years.

Great points, thank you.

Yes me neither. It is very apparent tho. Her form has worsened across the season on key skills. I can see it clearly thru videos I’ve taken. I ask if they correct or instruct on it and they don’t. Practices are too big and coaches spread too thin. One girl had an element she was doing wrong or replaced with something else and it was causing a .5 deduction and her mom figured it out. That’s the kind of stuff I’m worried about. I don’t feel I should have to buy the manual and train myself to help her identify corrections. And again, she’s not just a strong athlete / but not great compulsory gymnast. She’s a 39 compulsory gymnast who learned it all in 4 months. Nothing is different this year except the structure of practice and coaching and just how disorganized it all feels. I think I’m answering my own questions. I’m just so disappointed because I wanted this to work.

 

[NutterButter]

For the one that does not have good DP do they just get transfers into elite?

I would look up all of your gyms elites of mymeetscores to see their progression. You will be able to tell if they are homegrown (meaning they started with their gym) or transferred from elsewhere (and at what level they changed gyms).

 

[JBS]

Getting caught up in performance at L3 or L4 and extrapolating it out as my DD is "gifted" is fools gold.

This quote is iconic. I'm going to have to read through this whole thread... but no time now.

 

[HannahBanana]

This quote is iconic. I'm going to have to read through this whole thread... but no time now.

We were told this by the gym coaches and owners. I’m not just extrapolating because I’m a bored parent living vicariously thru my child. This sport was not my idea.

 

[JBS]

I guess my question is - is this a known secret that big elite gyms really can’t or don’t focus on the majority of girls growing thru the levels?

It really depends on how the program is setup... but yes... the elite program may be a completely separate program. Many elite coaches state heavily that "selection" is the first and foremost concept above all other things. First "select" the proper athlete... then give them the elite style programming and coaching. Now the catch is... "select" is really not usually how it works... it is the other way around... let the majority "eliminate" themselves as to show one or two that rise to the top and are thus "selected".

I haven't read through all of this yet... but are you looking for "elite" programming for your daughter?

 

[HannahBanana]

It really depends on how the program is setup... but yes... the elite program may be a completely separate program. Many elite coaches state heavily that "selection" is the first and foremost concept above all other things. First "select" the proper athlete... then give them the elite style programming and coaching. Now the catch is... "select" is really not usually how it works... it is the other way around... let the majority "eliminate" themselves as to show one or two that rise to the top and are thus "selected".

I haven't read through all of this yet... but are you looking for "elite" programming for your daughter?

Possibly but not necessarily- we want her to go as far as she is capable of and wants to go. Moving to the elite gym in part I thought would position us to offer that to her down the line if she had that potential. (Or any other options including stepping back to x cel!). It truly never occurred to me that any coaching would be subpar. I legit am confused on what to do next. I do want her to have options that include college. I was a college athlete (not gymnast). Your selection theory is helpful to hear. I was also surprised at the gym that many seemingly good athletes were not as high scoring as I would have thought, which led me to think maybe they don’t care about low level scores as much. It’s the not knowing I hate - I want to understand their philosophy and how (or whether) she fits in. I’m having a hard time reconciling all of the information together.

 

[JBS]

Thanks for your response. Yes, definitely more room for deductions. But isn’t that where the lack of coaching comes in (to point out those simple deductions?). Girl has no idea why she’s scoring barely 9, on events she was able to bet 9.9 on last year.

Yes and no. The primary is just to teach them to do the skills / routine well so they do not acquire deductions. I could honestly tell most 8 year olds everyday why they are not scoring and they will not understand... or they don't care... or they just can't do it due to strength or flex or fear. This goes back to "selection"... it's much easier to "select" the gymnasts that keep their legs straight than work with the ones that constantly need to be reminded of it.

They are doing some uptraining but maybe not enough clean drills for those skills. More chuck and throw. Which my daughter does not like.

What uptraining skills are "chuck and throw"?

 

[HannahBanana]

That makes sense.
She could keep everything straight and make all corrections at last gym. She was the one doing all
Of that. But not here. I’m not certain why except group size and lack of structure for her.

 

[HannahBanana]

Yes and no. The primary is just to teach them to do the skills / routine well so they do not acquire deductions. I could honestly tell most 8 year olds everyday why they are not scoring and they will not understand... or they don't care... or they just can't do it due to strength or flex or fear. This goes back to "selection"... it's much easier to "select" the gymnasts that keep their legs straight than work with the ones that constantly need to be reminded of it.



What uptraining skills are "chuck and throw"?

I would say chuck and throw = run and do some front tucks into the pit (instead of drills to teach shape and form on that first) so many girls are just running and hurling. I’ve never seen instruction, spotting, or drills on shape for that portion of practice. It’s more like open trampoline park time. lol. With the exception of bars up training getting good spots.

 

[leapingcows310]

First of all, I know very little about gymnastics, but I understand what you’re feeling because I too am a very competitive parent. My 10-year-old is a level 7 gymnast and changed gyms this year to a very large program that has an elite group located in Texas. We wanted her to have the best coaching possible and be around other kids her age who seem to be talented as well. Our experience with our previous gym was great and it taught her all the fundamentals that she needed but they do not have an upper level team and definitely have no experience coaching level 10. Although her score so far this season haven’t been spectacular. I understand that the skills expected at level seven are much more difficult. I also appreciate that they are still working on higher level skills in preparation for level 8/9. I make sure to tell my child that it isn’t about the scores but if she’s improving, that’s ultimately what matters because the endgame is to hopefully get to level 10 and hopefully get into college. She has loved her teammates and coaches. Our program has a very good track record of getting into college so I have to trust that they know what they’re doing. Your situation obviously may be different and it’s difficult for any of us to tell you if there is a method to their madness.