Arm swing on BHS

[hannahsmom]

How much of an arm backswing should my dd have on her standing BHS. Tutorials I see online show the gymnasts with very large backswings, but my dd doesn't go much beyond her hips. Will the bigger backswing just come with time or should she be doing the big backswing now? She doesn't land in the nice hollow position, so I'm wondering if the bigger backswing would help give her more power.

 

[ginnymac]

First, welcome to Chalk Bucket...I see that you are relatively new here! Glad to hear that your daughter loves gymnastics.

I read your other posts and saw that you say that you are from a reputable gym. As a parent and coach I will give you one piece of advice. Leave the coaching to the coaches at the gym!!! Try not to coach at home. I don't know if you have any background yourself in gymnastics, but there are many different techniques to a variety of skills. Working on skills that need spot at home is not only dangerous, but can be counterproductive to what the coaches are trying to do at the gym.

All little gymmies flit around at home and often seem to be on their hands more than their feet!! It is one thing to observe skills that she can do safely and independently at home--such as a handstand or cartwheel--and comment on straight knees, pointed toes etc...

It is a completely different story to be coaching at home.

As for the swing in the BHS, there is a school of thought that when learning BHS do not use a swing because when connected to a RO, there is no arm swing. It has been debated here before, I think. Some coaches feel that arm swing is often accompanied by head throwing back and try to discourage newer gymmies from doing that.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well stated.

 

[Icoach22]

Um, I have been coaching for 6 years and was competing long before that. When i was learning standing BHS way back when...we were taught not to use an arm swing because of the RO BHS as 'ginnymac' said above me. However, technically there is an arm swing in the RO BHS it's just built in....when they push off the floor in their RO (their arms should NEVER stop pushing backwards) and that is their arm swing into their BHS.

I teach my girls RO BHS before standing so they don't pause for a swing; I then coach standing back handsprings with a big swing because your arms flip you. You can't get a good reach and open shoulders/armpits by just a big jump in your legs. Obviously the arm swing is not the only important aspect, but it's a big one. Hope this helps

 

[CoachTodd]

It varies from gym to gym as to what they want to see. I'm a fan of not dropping the arms below the shoulders when they are learning the skill. If done correctly, the sit and jump do most of the work in the standing back handspring. The view I like that I heard from a college coach and have stuck with is as follows:
"Sit back, Jump high, Don't let your head hit the ground"

I know this is a little over simplified but it is technically accurate.
If you sit at the right angle and jump at the right angle, you go back and begin to flip. The opening of the shoulders assists in the rotation but most of the work is done when the gymnast uses their core to snap their hips through to help get their hands off the floor faster.

There are books and books that could be written on different ways of teaching back hand springs and they could all be different yet all be correct. We decided on a certain way to teach them at our gym and that is what our coaches go by.

 

[gymdog]

I teach back handspring to little pre teamers with the arms by the ears from a hollow stand. I'm spotting them to handstand anyway. Eventually, when that's all proficient (and pretty much by themselves...yes they can do it), we can add the swing in. Not a big deal. I did no swing BHS on beam in L7. I could do step out and two feet, pretty well. Probably can't do it well now, not the same core strength I had. These little kids can flip over without a huge arm swing if they're staying tight and using the right shapes.

I teach back handspring to older cheerleaders WITH an arm swing. Different methods.

The arm swing is another distraction with the 6 year olds. And unnecessary. I start letting them do it when they get more proficient and can do it by themselves, but you don't need it. It's going to be more powerful...sure. That's why in L8 i started used swing BHS on beam into series. In order to do the series. But it's a standing BHS on floor, kid is not doing a full twist out of it, I want them to go to handstand correctly first and foremost.

But there is no reason to do it at home. And at this age the stress on body from so much practice on substandard surfaces is a real concern. If you don't trust the coaches you should try another gym or pull her from gymnastics. Safety is the primary concern. It is too much pressure at this age to impose any timeline to learn skills more quickly. Everything takes time.

 

[hannahsmom]

Thanks for all the replies. Just so everyone understands me....I'm not that mom that is at home telling her to practice. She loves gymnastics and we only do gymnastics when she asks. However, at this point, she is getting so much "grief" from her coach because she doesn't have her BHS yet, even though she's really not much behind the other two girls in her group on this skill (ahead of them on most all other skills), so it has become almost an obsession for her. I have been taught how to spot, I have mats at home and I only let her do it if she's doing it right. If she's having a bad day, I just gently tell her we'll try it another day. I'm not going to add to her frustration, but if I can help her out of this frustrating period, I want to do it. As for her gym...they initially taught the BHS without a backswing, but as they have progressed, they are working in the backswing. I just wasn't sure if they work in more and more of a backswing or if it's just a comfort level for the kids as far as how much of a backswing. So, unfortunately, at this time, we're having some issues with one of her coaches and I'm just trying to help my dd through this so that she can either get back to loving gymnastics each gym day (not just on the gym days when this coach isn't working) or decide she's ready to try other things.

 

[gymdog]

Thanks for all the replies. Just so everyone understands me....I'm not that mom that is at home telling her to practice. She loves gymnastics and we only do gymnastics when she asks. However, at this point, she is getting so much "grief" from her coach because she doesn't have her BHS yet, even though she's really not much behind the other two girls in her group on this skill (ahead of them on most all other skills), so it has become almost an obsession for her. I have been taught how to spot, I have mats at home and I only let her do it if she's doing it right. If she's having a bad day, I just gently tell her we'll try it another day. I'm not going to add to her frustration, but if I can help her out of this frustrating period, I want to do it. As for her gym...they initially taught the BHS without a backswing, but as they have progressed, they are working in the backswing. I just wasn't sure if they work in more and more of a backswing or if it's just a comfort level for the kids as far as how much of a backswing. So, unfortunately, at this time, we're having some issues with one of her coaches and I'm just trying to help my dd through this so that she can either get back to loving gymnastics each gym day (not just on the gym days when this coach isn't working) or decide she's ready to try other things.

If she is showing signs of strain and this coach does not know appropriate developmental expectations, I would take her from this environment. Gymnastics is not worth this. There shouldn't be any days when she doesn't want to go or is unhappy there (on a regular basis, not random kid stuff). I would ask her to be put in another class (even if it isn't preteam) at this gym, or put her in whatever rec class seems most appropriate, or try another program. Not worth it.

Also I still think the kids should not be doing BHS at home. I did gymnastics too as a child. I can relate. Some things are just not for practicing at home. The kids need to understand this, even though they will still try to push the limits. It's dangerous, and can contribute to overuse injuries, or even result in traumatic injury, due to differing surfaces and the changes in timing in the skill (no one has a spring floor in their house...panel mat is not an appropriate surface in my opinion). Some of my competitive kids have trampolines at home, but we've talked about how it's dangerous for them to throw things like back tucks before they have it solidly at the gym, and they understand now (after having seen some others fix bad habits learned by "thowing" things). It's not the same trampoline we have at the gym, and it is not over the same surfaces. Also, it is just too much pressure, even though we often don't see it at the time. But I've been around gymnastics long enough to know that the pressure can be extremely subtle and build up over time. I know it's difficult to convince people of this...but that's my two cents...I did gymnastics until my senior year of high school and watched a lot of people quit.

 

[hannahsmom]

Thanks gymdog. I wasn't aware of the overuse or things like that. I just figured if I had been taught to spot and I had mats and made sure she didn't land on her face, we were okay and figured it was simply a need for repetition. I will take your advise and just explain it to my dd. And, I appreciate the advise on the gym. We are contemplating a move of some sort after the new year. It might be a move to a different gym within their organization or to another gym altogether.

 

[EntrReality]

If she is showing signs of strain and this coach does not know appropriate developmental expectations, I would take her from this environment. Gymnastics is not worth this. There shouldn't be any days when she doesn't want to go or is unhappy there (on a regular basis, not random kid stuff). I would ask her to be put in another class (even if it isn't preteam) at this gym, or put her in whatever rec class seems most appropriate, or try another program. Not worth it.

Whoa...Whoa...Whoa.... Stop for a moment and think about all the ups and downs you personally went through as a gymnast. If your parents moved you every time you struggled with a skill or coach you be moving a couple times a year.

I too have a teen who has been in gymnastics since she was a toddler and in the beginning of her gymnastics I rode her roller coaster ride many times. What I have learned is not to get frustrated when she gets frustrated. You are not teaching her how to cope with life if things get rough (and they will) and you will be miserable.

Gymnastics much like school, other sports and jobs (ugh...friends, boys) can be frustrating. Its a fact of life. In my opinion you approach the coach and ask for privates. This will give the coach an opportunity to slow down and go at the gymnast's pace and even try things (drills) she hasn't before. The upside of this is the coach will better understand your daughter and be able to adjust her coaching style to the needs of your daughter. The one on one is a great time for bonding too. I as a coach I am not a fan of privates because my time is already tied up but when a kid works with me in a private I see a certain growth in both myself and the gymnast. I see a change in the class environment between the two of us also.

Don't just go and change gyms because of this one issue. This is a perfect opportunity for you as a parent to teach your daughter how to create working relationships and how to persevere and the benefits of such.

Just to reiterate my prior statement....."don't ride the emotional roller coaster with your daughter" just teach her how we need to work things through. And know she will be going through this again in the future over a different skill so you will be having to do such things again. Don't let her see you get frustrated right now she needs to see you as her life guide and her rock. Point her in the right direction.

As for the backhandspring... this is the first real difficult skill a gymnast will learn. Don't forget that. The armswing issue is truly not an issue. There are so many ways to skin a cat and each coach approaches it differently and has to adjust her expectations according to each gymnast. Young coaches (and usually they are the lower level coaches) are the most difficult to get to adjust to changing their ways. But over time and with the support of everyone things do change and they grow as coaches and people. Just think of the private lesson as your chance to help the coach grow too.

Just a warning from experience.....you will be facing this issue again with the Kip!

Good Luck!

 

[hannahsmom]

Hi EntrReality - Thanks for the advise, but if this was a simple case of a personality conflict or my dd just having thin skin, I would totally agree with you. I've talked to the coach and explained to her how my dd was feeling. It isn't simply that "she's being mean to me" as many 6 years old will tell you. She has very thick skin and handles things like that very well. I don't have a problem with this coach being tough on her, because for one, she's the type of kids that needs it and because that is what motivates her. However, when the coach has nothing positive to say, especially to a 6 year old and when she makes her sit out of practice for a period of time because she's not getting a certain skill, I have a problem with that. I am paying her to teach my daughter those skills, not make her sit out if she isn't getting them. When my daughter is having trouble keeping her legs together on her BHS, what is accomplished my making her sit? Is that going to suddenly keep her legs together? How about simply trying a new approach with her? I simply put a very small stuffed animal between her and "voila" they are now together even without the prop. After I talked with the coach and explained how dd was feeling, she still did nothing to address it with my dd. She continued to ignore her other than to criticize. I've talked with the owners of the gym and explained that even if this coach gave 5% encouragement and 95% criticism, my dd would react differently. They understand where I'm coming from (we're not the first family to have these issues) but they can't afford to lose this coach either. They've asked us not leave and even offered to move us to another gym within their organization, so it's not just us.

As for the armswing question, I was just wondering more if a bigger swing resulted in more power, but it appears it does not have a whole lot to do with it. Again, I was just looking for any little piece of advise that might help dd get past this first frustrating skill.

BTW, she LOVES bars, so with her perfectionist personality, I'm sure the kip is going to be quite a love-hate relationship!

 

[gymdog]

Whoa...Whoa...Whoa.... Stop for a moment and think about all the ups and downs you personally went through as a gymnast. If your parents moved you every time you struggled with a skill or coach you be moving a couple times a year.

This is a young child, not an optional level kid committed to a program. If the program is not developmentally appropriate and meeting those needs, yes I would absolutely move her. I am willing to maintain that: there are some things gymnastics is not worth. I'm sure people will disagree with me...but yes I think if a little 5 or 6 year old child is distressed and not having fun, no this is not appropriate. I don't care if there is no other gym and it means no more gymnastics for the kid...well there are other sports and activities. There is no reason to continue going day to day with this sport having a negative impact on the child and family. It is already cutting into family time and these years won't come back. Seriously. If it isn't negatively affecting the child, then fine, maybe the coach isn't especially effective but I'm on the "who cares" couch there. That's why I said "if." But if it is? Then it's going to continue to be a problem for the year and might even get worse, and for what? I have seen many coaches with inappropriate developmental expectations. There is no reason to switch gyms all the time. One should find a well run program. They are offering to switch you to another gym because they know this coach is a problem? I'm sorry but that seems silly. Why are they not addressing this? I would be concerned about a program like this...how are they preparing their instructors and overall what is the instruction quality as she progresses. I cannot answer these things. But I'm saying take a good look. I think we can all agree there are programs out there that are not great.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

profoundly true ^^^.