Athletes or Children?

[bogwoppit]

If I have completely missed triptwister's point, then disregard. I just do not quite understand trip's last post about coaches taking responsibility and fixing this and getting rid of bad apple coaches. I guess I just don't follow what he/she means to treat them solely like athletes. What exactly does that mean?

Now that is an excellent question.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

For as long as our industry remains disordered and a helter skelter of expectations, we will have parents that think we are not professional. This is not about recognizing that an athlete is also a child. Educated and erudite coaches understand child athleticism and know how to capitalize on it. This is about standards, professionalism, and ownership. We are the leaders, we are the experts, but we are inconsistent and do what pleases our selfishness. This needs to stop. We need standards, we need coalition, and we need to be the ones who script the definitions of our craft. Shame on you, coaches. How many gymnasts do not get what the parents pay for due to dubious standards that lack professionally defined parameters? How much time will a gymnast stay at level 6 and never move up year after year? How many excuses will that gym give the parents? Blame does not motivate the victim. Like a franchise, we need to co-join and assure the public gets their money's worth. Are you hearing me, coaches? Take responsibility exclusively not for yourselves, but for all as one. One bad apple makes the whole bunch dubious. Lets fix this.

What?

What's to fix? That the parents want their children to be treated like children? I don't think it's fair to the child as a human being to define them only as an athlete - gymnastics isn't LIFE - i don't care who you are. All children are different. They have different bodies, different psyche, different families, different religions, different eye color...You can't just take children, call them athletes, and train them all exactly the same.

And then, where do the rec kids fit in with this "children or athletes" thing?...I have no idea what the numbers are, but I'd put my money on the fact that the majority of children (or athletes) who attend gymnastics training aren't there to be on the team. This would mean that the majority of the buisness (or if you'd rather call it "franchise") money maker is REC CLASSES. Are you seriously suggesting that all coaches should take these preschool, beginner, advanced beginner, etc rec kids and treat them like they are going to war? There's WAAAAAY more to gymnastics than team and competing and "athleticism"...So who cares how long they stay at level 6? Lots of kids will never make it to level 6, so I'm not sure I see your point at this time.

 

[coachmolly]

Trip's comment about selfishness really rubbed me the wrong way. I have seen PLENTY of selfish coaches in the world of gymnastics, however they were NOT the coaches who were able to see their gymnasts as both athlete and children. To me, a selfish coach is one who is unable to do that. When I think of the "selfish" coaches I have come in contact with over the years, they are the ones who are in it for themselves. The ones who will do anything to get their gym and their own personal name on the map. They are the ones who will pass up a moderately talented and incredibly driven 10 year old kid for a super natural 5 year old, pushing that child until he/she is broken, all in the name of getting an elite. Not for the child's benefit, but for their own selfish purposes. I don't care how standardized their program is, if they are working as a coach for their own fame and fortune, I'm not going to support them and I sure as heck don't want to be like that myself.
I don't care what level the child is, whether level 4 or level 10, they are both athlete and child. Each one has different goals, strengths, personalities, and needs as both an athlete and a child. I have standards for my gymnasts, but I am also willing to make the occasional exception. If a child's goal is to compete no matter what, I'm going to try my best to make that happen. And if they spend 3 years at level 4 and that is as far as they are ever going to get, I can be happy as long as they are.
That being said, I can see what you are saying about no standards in a gym and the problems that can cause. The gym where I coach has move-up tests at the lower levels every few months. While the skills on the list are standardized, the quality of the skill is not. As a result, I have had children arrive in the level 4 TNT class unable to do a proper forward or backward roll. And I'm expected to teach them a backhandspring? I don't thinks so! Sure, some kids are quick to catch up with just a little extra push, but these cases are extreme and potential safety hazards. But that is exactly what this particular gym wants. They want kids to experience "flipping" and learning the "fun stuff" quickly. Would I love more structure and more clear cut standards? Absolutely! Is that going to happen in this particular gym? I don't think so.

 

[triptwister]

The coach who is professional understands athleticism and is able to render a professional approach to an athlete no matter what age they are. This comes from education and experience.

Now, lets take education and formalize it. Require it. Then implement its precepts and set them as standards of practice. Level six will mean that every living soul knows what that gymnast can do and what that gymnast did to get there. Every living soul will know what is happening next because its being done in every gym in the country. And every living soul will know what to expect and in what time frame according to the standards. No excuses, and results are guaranteed or bust.

Lets face it folks. The governing American body requires only two things that credits a coach as a professional. You, your mother, your father, your uncle, or anyone with the money can purchase a professional title. As long as your background checks out then a professional gymnastics title can be bought. This is shameful.

We need a board of gymnastics education. We need a department of gymnastics professional regulation. We need gymnastics universities. We need textbooks to be written. We need to implement professionalism.

The second thing that you can do and hold up as proof that the governing body sanctions you as professional is get safety certified.

Once you buy a professional title and educate yourself with a safety certification, you are good to go. You can call yourself a coach and open a gym. Or you can open a gym without these credentials This is shameful.

I don't wonder why parents don't respect gymnastics coaches. Parents are leery of coaches and don't trust them. Parents wonder whether the coach knows anything and is any good. This is shameful.

Coaches can brag all they want about what they know and what they did to get there. But guess what? Its all talk. We have no professionalism except for a bought title and a safety certification. Essentially, the requirements to be professional are non-existent. Its all a barnyard frenzy with all the animals running loose helter skelter. I can call myself better than you and you can call yourself better than me. But without requirements and standards, its all just a matter of what you can get people to think of you that makes you more professional. This is shameful.

Coaches...prove that you are professional. All you can show me that is required by the governing body is a title you bought and a certificate anyone can get in less than one day. The rest is your hodge podge of ad hoc self boasting things that fell your way or you chose to do on your own prerogative.

Parents want to treat us like incompetent sales clerks. This is because we have nothing to stand behind us. We have nothing that gives parents a standard to measure us by.

Coaches, gym owners, ladies and gentlemen, we need to fix this. Wake up and smell the lack of sweat. We don't have to do anything meaningful to call ourselves coaches and open a gym. As a matter of fact step one is find an adequate facility. Step one is not to go to a gymnastics university and get a four year bachelor's degree because the governing body requires it if you want to be considered a professional coach by them. Step one is look for a place. Equip it. Set up shop and roll in the money.

We need a board of gymnastics education. We need a department of professional gymnastics regulation. We need to professionalize gymnastics coaches. We need 4 year gymnastics universities.

 

[aerialriver]

I'm not too sure what this post is about anymore or if my contribution will mean anything, it isn't at all fancy but here is what I have on the child/athlete issue. I am not a parent, I do not have a maternal bone in my body, it is not at all because I dislike children I have just never wanted them, I knew this when I was a child myself. Our gym is mostly competitive they start competing in "fun" meets as early as 3 but the parents want to see Suzie do a routine and remember it, they begin really competing at level 2. When I began coaching it was instilled in me that these kids had to be good and do well at meets, and honestly some of them just were not talented or even ready to compete. But I felt my job was on the line and not being parental at all I began treating them like athletes, and only athletes. I got very frustrated with them and myself, another entire strange issue is a lot of kids these days look larger/older than years past, it is strange to be coaching a 12 year old that is 6â€￾ taller and weighs 50 pounds more than me. Right around Easter I had one of them that annoyed the heck out of me constantly with her antics and eye rolling and in general disregard for wanting to be a gymnast come up to me and give me a picture she colored, an Easter egg, cutest thing ever, colored outside the lines, egg not really egg shaped, funky colors with her autograph barely legible and her age by her name "Suzie" 6. At that moment it stuck me and I have no idea why it took that or so long by I had an OMG moment when I realized WOW she is just a child and here I am treating her just as I would an adult or in this case a serious athlete. Stupid story I guess but it taught me a lot, I still have that picture on my fridge and every time I get the itch to treat those kids like miniature adults or strict "athletes" I look at it and it pulls me back to reality.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i've had so many of those moments...i have lost count.

 

[CoachGoofy]

The kids I coach are kids.

They're athletic, they're athletes (some of them really fantastic athletes), but they are children. Kids of a certain age get whiney. Kids of a certain age get contrary. The words that come out of my mouth wont always make sense to the 8 year olds even if the 13 year olds think they're perfectly clear. They will have fears that to me are irrational, and it's my responsibility to figure out how to make the skill make sense to a 6 year old or 10 year old or 14 year old.

We can't just see them as one facet of who they are. That does them a disservice. I'm not training elites. I don't want to. Gymnastics shouldnt be all they are. It should be part of who they are becoming. Losing sight of that is, or should be, counter to any sane standard put out.

 

[Granny Smith]

I agree with this as well--but add that by "call the shots" I mean if I don't like the way a coach is treating my child, I'll find another gym (after expressing what upsets me). I'm not expecting to be out there on the floor micromanaging coaching. But I do expect the coach to realize my child athlete is a CHILD--she is 12 yr old right now and should not be expected to be treated as an adult--even in athletic matters. Sometimes our coaches lose sight of that too.

That's exactly what I mean, I would go to another gym if need be. I'm not going to run out on the floor and micromanage a coach. Why would I pay what I pay if I thought for one second I could do it myself - which I totally know I can't. There is a gym and a coaching style out there for every child.

 

[Linsul]

I think we all feel like the kids are kids, but some people don't always express it in a moment where it counts for the kid. It's easy to be silly or encourage them in an average gym moment. Seeing that they're stressed and being able to empathize while also getting the best from them can be a delicate thing.

For instance, The other day my developmental group wanted to dance to a song on the radio but still had their 5 pull ups to do. By themselves, and their feet are about 3 inches from the floor so it's a dead hang. I told them if they hurry they could get it done and still get to the song and dance. A couple girls who are not quite as strong were still on their 3rd or 4th one when the other girls were done. I had 3 distinct feelings at seeing them struggle. The first was that part of me who adores them felt awful and wanted them to go dance. Second, as a coach I felt 'yesss feel the burn, get stronger!' and the third was a former gymnast who knows they want to go the next level 'ohhh man if this is hard...you have no idea!' What I actually said was 'You're almost done and there's a lot of the song left, I'm going to wait here with you and then we'll go dance together!' I put my hands on their legs to suggest help without actually lifting them, and they got done fast. In true kid fashion, the moment they were done the they went from stressed out to super happy, got to the mat where the other girls were dancing, and one of them says 'Can we shake our booties?' I said 'well yeah of course!'

Later on I put those 2 together for floor stations, and when they got to me I told them how happy I was that they didn't give up and finished. I also told them that I didn't actually help them, that they are super strong and can do 5 pull ups. I think a lot of dealing with kids is recognizing what they are being truly emotional about, being able to diffuse it, and waiting for a calm moment to give them the lesson you wanted them to understand in that moment at a time when they are calm enough to get it. Also that as a coach to feel what you feel, but to actively choose your words even if they strongly contrast what you're feeling. The other girls thought I had split them into 2's randomly for stations, but those 2 were together for that reason.

Treating your athlete as a kid enhances what they're capable of. When you think about it we're asking them to do a lot of scary stuff, so they have to have a notion that you care. I wouldn't perform for someone who treated me like gymnast #864856354, so why should they?

 

[dancengym]

Athleticism is an equalizer working in the same body as one. A child who is now an athlete appreciates that they are a member of that body. Instead of being treated as a child they are treated as an athlete. They wouldn't have it any other way. Its a respect for kinship in something bigger than life and bigger than themselves that all athletes share. This is why an athlete walks tall and proud because they add up to something big through a common tenacity. As competency accrues it adds dimension and definition to what an athlete represents. The body of athleticism is a wondrous thing that defines the person.

When you look at a young athlete, do you see a child or do you see an athlete?

I think a child is first a child. And what they do, is just that. What they do and not who they are. As everyone has expressed, they truly are neither one NOR the other. But a summation of many things. To put a child into just one category is truly limiting. If a child is an exceptional athlete and is also a "genius" at school, is the child a child, an athlete or an scholar? The child is all of the above. But to the coach, the child is an athlete, to his teacher, he is a scholar and to his parent, he is a child. There forms a battle from external forces.

As far as an athlete walking tall and confident (I prefer confident to pride), I believe it is the physical demands of being an athlete that forms his posture. His muscles are stronger and thus can hold his frame better. Similarly, a dancer is taught everyday at class to stand tall and walk with grace. This daily practice carries itself over. However, a scholar who is constantly stooped over reading a book, or doing research, may not carry himself quite as tall, but may still possess all of the qualities you've oultined. You are seeing athleticism as the be all and end all. Having an athletic child is icing on the cake, but is certainly not the entire cake.

 

[dancengym]

I thank the parents that have justified their perspective in this thread which says that a parent cannot define their children apart from parenting. It proves my point about a coach versus what a parent sees.

Did not realize what point you were trying to make on your first post. But I do now. In your opinion, is it then the parent who cannot define her child apart from parenting OR is it the child who is trying to separate herself from being a child? Parents can also be many different things given different situations. I also think it can never be one or the other. Even as a coach, I am certain you don't treat the kids you coach as athletes all the time. When they are injured or look down, I am certain you also take the role as parents.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'm not too sure what this post is about anymore or if my contribution will mean anything, it isn't at all fancy but here is what I have on the child/athlete issue. I am not a parent, I do not have a maternal bone in my body, it is not at all because I dislike children I have just never wanted them, I knew this when I was a child myself. Our gym is mostly competitive they start competing in "fun" meets as early as 3 but the parents want to see Suzie do a routine and remember it, they begin really competing at level 2. When I began coaching it was instilled in me that these kids had to be good and do well at meets, and honestly some of them just were not talented or even ready to compete. But I felt my job was on the line and not being parental at all I began treating them like athletes, and only athletes. I got very frustrated with them and myself, another entire strange issue is a lot of kids these days look larger/older than years past, it is strange to be coaching a 12 year old that is 6” taller and weighs 50 pounds more than me. Right around Easter I had one of them that annoyed the heck out of me constantly with her antics and eye rolling and in general disregard for wanting to be a gymnast come up to me and give me a picture she colored, an Easter egg, cutest thing ever, colored outside the lines, egg not really egg shaped, funky colors with her autograph barely legible and her age by her name "Suzie" 6. At that moment it stuck me and I have no idea why it took that or so long by I had an OMG moment when I realized WOW she is just a child and here I am treating her just as I would an adult or in this case a serious athlete. Stupid story I guess but it taught me a lot, I still have that picture on my fridge and every time I get the itch to treat those kids like miniature adults or strict "athletes" I look at it and it pulls me back to reality.

I've had many moments like this. Usually, it happens when I run into one of my kids outside the gym.

In the gym, we treat them more or less like adults (at least once they're at the competitive level). This is not to say we don't make it fun for them, but we expect them to take it seriously. They come in for a serious workout doing a serious sport. It's not play time, it's training. If they're goofing off, we quickly and sometimes harshly bring them back in line.

And this is as it should be -- we absolutely depend on these kids having discipline in order to do this sport safely. Heck, just being in the gym requires a certain level of discipline to keep everything safe, because the gym genuinely can be a dangerous place, and gymnastics genuinely can be a dangerous activity.

So while I as a coach do always strive to make it fun for the kids, I also expect them to behave with a level of maturity and discipline that is very rarely seen in kids outside the gym. And they rise to the challenge beautifully, for the most part! They understand that they have to act like adults, that they have to show a certain level of discipline. On some level, I think they even appreciate it -- after all, being treated like somebody much older and wiser implies a pretty major compliment.

But when I run into one of my girls outside the gym, wearing regular clothes, laughing and goofing around with her friends, there is always this moment where I have to stop and think "wow, she really is just a little girl." This is something I always have to remind myself of as a coach.

It's a balancing act.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

totally agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Megley]

Curious whether coaches notice their attitudes changing as the kids advance in levels? I seem to recall my dd's coaches at Level 4 being much warmer and fuzzier than at Level 7. The coaches push much harder now and expect so much more in the way of self direction, motivation and self discipline. I think the kids are rising to the coaches' expectations but it isn't always easy.

 

[triptwister]

Remarkable perspicuity in your post, Geoffrey Taucer. Thank you.

The Department of Professional Gymnastics Regulation should have different requirements, minimums, and tests that must be achieved in order to receive various coaching titles...Plus pay fees to take those tests...Recreational, Compulsory, Tiered Optional, Elite, College, etc.

The Board of Gymnastics Education should issue the textbooks and curriculum's that lead to graduation at different coaching levels. Then you can take the tests that classify you as professional at those levels as mentioned above.

Lets get busy and make this happen. Where are the gymnastics politicians?

 

[bogwoppit]

Check out the Canadian system, we have four levels of coaching certification. Coaches have to have the appropriate training to coach certain levels. Level 1 will allow you to coach rec and early comp. level 4 will allow you to coach up to Elite levels, you need to do each level in order to progress. There is theory, workshop and in gym training.

It means that every parent can be 100% certain that the coach is qualified, it also means that owners know exactly what training any coach has had.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Check out the Canadian system, we have four levels of coaching certification. Coaches have to have the appropriate training to coach certain levels. Level 1 will allow you to coach rec and early comp. level 4 will allow you to coach up to Elite levels, you need to do each level in order to progress. There is theory, workshop and in gym training.

It means that every parent can be 100% certain that the coach is qualified, it also means that owners know exactly what training any coach has had.

I just recently bought the canadian level 2 and 3 manuals for both men and women, and they're great! I really wish USAG had this sort of required coaches' education.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

it's coming, albeit slowly, at the USA Gymnastics university.

 

[Linsul]

it's coming, albeit slowly, at the USA Gymnastics university.

Yeah they've had the beginnings of that up for about 2 years. I thought they gave up or something.


Cant read USAG'S POKER FACE

 

[triptwister]

America needs to adopt the Canadian system instead of the other way around. Why are we always looking to other countries to see how things ought to be done? First the Japanese, then the Russians, then Bela, and now the Canadians. Lets get our act together comrades. Hmmm..."the USA Gymnastics university"...I like the sound of that. When is that going to be built?