Bars scoring

[Verjakes]

Just completed Level 5 sectionals. Made State, but there was some really odd scoring going on. Maybe a coach out there can explain to me how it is mathematically possible for one girl to fall off the bar on her glide kip, do a pull-over back on (so no complete kip), two step her dismount, and receive a higher score (8.4) than another girl who does a clean routine (allbeit on the slow side) with straight arm kips, no noticeable defects except a failure to cast high before her back hip-circle, slightly hyper-extended arms and slightly bent legs in areas (8.375)-- First girl's was also on the slow side throughout. A third girl went down to hanging on her high-bar kip, but then completed it and finished her routine-- she never went to the floor-- she received a 7.4 for her effort. How does this make any sense?

Similar situation on beam. Girl wobbles terribly, falls, receives same score as girl who looks clean thorughout.

I know everyone says there are little things which add up, but these were obvious big mistakes. It almost seemed the scores were calculated incorrectly. Really makes this sport hard to watch sometimes.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Ahhhh... gymnastics....... One thing that will quickly drive you crazy is trying to figure out why one girl gets one score, yet another one scores something totally different. None of us will ever figure out what is "wrong" with a particular routine... I honestly do not envy judges!!!

At any rate, my suggestion would be to let it all go, take a deep breath and just enjoy this sport for however long your DD is involved. You truly will enjoy it so much more if you can just have her set small goals for herself that have nothing to do w/scoring!

Congrats on her making States!

 

[gymgal]

Congrats on making it to states!

You would be surprised how quickly those deductions add up. Sometimes it is actually less deduction value to fall than it is to wobble a couple times. My dd is famous for trying so hard to stay on the beam, wobbling through a skill but in reality she would score higher sometimes if she would just take the fall. This will be dd's 4th year competing and I finally feel like I have a handle on the scoring and deductions, even for vault, which tends to have the biggest "huh?" factor when scores pop up.

 

[Bajanswife]

Just completed Level 5 sectionals. Made State, but there was some really odd scoring going on. Maybe a coach out there can explain to me how it is mathematically possible for one girl to fall off the bar on her glide kip, do a pull-over back on (so no complete kip), two step her dismount, and receive a higher score (8.4) than another girl who does a clean routine (allbeit on the slow side) with straight arm kips, no noticeable defects except a failure to cast high before her back hip-circle, slightly hyper-extended arms and slightly bent legs in areas (8.375)-- First girl's was also on the slow side throughout. A third girl went down to hanging on her high-bar kip, but then completed it and finished her routine-- she never went to the floor-- she received a 7.4 for her effort. How does this make any sense?

Similar situation on beam. Girl wobbles terribly, falls, receives same score as girl who looks clean thorughout.

I know everyone says there are little things which add up, but these were obvious big mistakes. It almost seemed the scores were calculated incorrectly. Really makes this sport hard to watch sometimes.

It's tough to know sometimes. I watch enough practices that I pick up on the kinds of deductions that many parents wouldn't think of, like not connecting each skill on bars or piking when you're supposed to be hollow and straight. A girl can be tight and pretty on bars, but if she doesn't connect the skills, if she pikes on the back hip circle and doesn't do a proper underswing, she could score less than the girl who does those things properly but falls on one skill. Even the high bar swings can have deductions if her back is archy and she isn't hollow.

 

[vagymmomma]

A 'clean routine' is not always easy to view. Obviously judges are human, but they are required to have scores within a certain range (based on the average score), so they likely saw something similar. For a frame of reference. Bent arms or legs can be up to a .3 deduction. Separated legs can be up to .2. A cast deduction (which I see as a big source of deduction for 5s and 6s) can be up to .3 (.4 for L6) and there are two in the routine.

A fall is .5, so even with a deduction for the kip itself the routines can be equalized (especially if the gymnast is a great high bar swinger). I'm amazed at the potential rhythm deductions for a slow routine. The points add up. I agree with TQM -- don't worry about whys of the scores. You have to trust the judges or it will drive you crazy. Gymnastics can be a very subtle sport and the attention to the finer points are frequently overlooked.

 

[AlwaysCuriousMom]

I know it's frustrating... one thing that may help you get a little clarity is if you find a you tube video of a near perfect lvl 5 bar routine. I just saw a 9.8 lvl 5 routine and it was truly a "oh, that's what it looks like" moment

 

[Allieonbeam]

I agree with others that little deductions do add up pretty quickly. In most cases a girl with a fall and a higher than expected score would have a quality of movement, like legs glued together, straights arms/legs, pointed toes, proper shapes and rhythm which would mean that a fall would be one of the very few deductions she gets. You also mentioned in the 3rd case that a girl fell off kip while not touching the floor. I know that falling on apparatus is the same deduction as falling off, so she probably got 0.5 deduction even without technically falling to the floor.

 

[marie83]

Judging is hard!!
I judged a competition last Sunday (however, vault, not bars)
I had a gymnast who performed her flat-back - piked on, and then flicked her legs over to enable a 2nd flight (sure we've all seen those) You can only deduct 0.3 for piking in first flight!
Next we had a gymnast who went straight up to handstand, but had no 2nd flight what so ever - just got stuck in handstand and fell flat. She of course had the maximum 0.8 deducted for lack of height and 0.5 for lack of distance.There were other small 0.1 deductions too.
The previous girl only had 0.5 for lack of height and 0.1 for lack of distance. she also had deductions for lack of body tension.
In the end the girl who to me had the messiest vault actually came of better than the girl who was neat! Sometimes it makes no sense! I wish there was a bigger deduction for piking but its 0.3 max!!

We had similar vaults later in the day over the table - When you watched them you thought ooh that was nice, then when you added your deductions up and got quite a lot off! Weird! The other judge and I looked at eachother as if to say - did we really just deduct 2 marks off that?! But we both got the same or similar and that is why there are 2 or more judges!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the definition of insanity is attempting to figure out how they arrive at scores.

 

[sportyfam5]

I know it's frustrating... one thing that may help you get a little clarity is if you find a you tube video of a near perfect lvl 5 bar routine. I just saw a 9.8 lvl 5 routine and it was truly a "oh, that's what it looks like" moment

I saw a 10.0 L5 bar routine on youtube yesterday. Yikes! 10 on bars

 

[bogwoppit]

I saw a 10.0 L5 bar routine on youtube yesterday. Yikes! 10 on bars

Oh do share, we all want to see that!

 

[sportyfam5]

Oh do share, we all want to see that!

Kiernan's 10.0 on bars at Level 5 - YouTube

 

[bogwoppit]

Kiernan's 10.0 on bars at Level 5 - YouTube

Thanks. That was a beautiful routine.

 

[gymdog]

It's very possible, especially since some of the biggest deductions come in on the tap swings. As far as the kips, the deductions are going to vary to the extent that they are completed. If the kid gets all the way up, touches their hips, and then falls back, it's different than the kid who barely gets their shoulders above the bar. As far as the judging, there is a two judge panel in JO and the judges both independently judge the routine, and then they need to be in range with each other at the end. If one judge gets a 9 and the other gets an 8, then they both look back through their notes and talk about how they arrived at the score and one needs to raise or lower their score (or both). But that doesn't happen. At most we're talking about a discussion of a few tenths, if the judges are out of range at all.

So basically, gymnastics scoring is very complex and there's no way I can really explain it without seeing a video of the routines in question - otherwise I'd just be guessing. But most likely there was no error in the scores (based on the judging standards for the level...and on various events coaches might have opinions about those judging standards...but they are set out beforehand and they are the standards).

 

[Coach.Simon]

...gymnastics scoring is very complex and there's no way I can really explain it without seeing a video of the routines in question - otherwise I'd just be guessing....

Gymdog got it exactly right…Judging is not always as transparent as some people would like to think it would be.



A fall is .5, however say a kid doesn’t fall but...
she arches on her casts (up to .2),
has leg separation on her cast (up to .2)
has bent legs (up to .3),
bent arms (up to .3)
Does not go high enough (up to .3)

Now there's probably no way all of those deductions would be taken (deductions can’t exceed the value of the element anyways) and certainly if they were they wouldn't all be at max (hopefully) but its just a small example of how ONE cast can potentially cost you more than a fall.
As for this routine

Kiernan's 10.0 on bars at Level 5 - YouTube

Let me walk you through from a judges perspective, I just finished judging zones level 5 and I saw a lot of these routines, I wasn’t going to post this but this routine is definitely not a 10.0.

Is it bad? Of course not, but it’s not a 10.0.

Here we go.
Slightly bent arms, I’d take a .1
She arches in the first cast, I’d take .15
Arms bend on return to bar, .1
Arch on cast after LHkip .05
Her tap swings are incredible though.
So I would have given her a 9.6, which is still HUGE, I believe the highest score we gave at zones was a 9.1?

Those deductions were taken without slowing the video down (i didnt realize they replayed in in slow motion afterwards lol) and I jotted the deductions down with shorthand as I watched it.

Now to be fair, it is VERY hard to see arm bend from certain angles as a judge, but I cannot believe they failed to see her arch in her casts....

Kinda suspicious!

But wow her tap swings.....

her fly aways are going to be huge.

 

[gymgal]

As for this routine.....Let me walk you through from a judges perspective, I just finished judging zones level 5 and I saw a lot of these routines, I wasn’t going to post this but this routine is definitely not a 10.0.

LOL i think I am finally really getting the idea of looking at routines in the judges eyes because I caught all the deductions you noted too! But it was an excellent routine and it is a great video so show people the difference in a "near perfect" routine compared to one that gets a low 9 or high 8.

I have witnessed a few "give me" 10's in my dd's 3 years of competing. The deductions appeared so obvious to us in the stands and we were scratching our heads each time. It's pretty impossible to miss seeing wobbles on beam and arches on bars, no matter where you are sitting. Reality? even with the few deductions, the girls would have medaled highest anyway. but I am not sure it is just to give a 10 when it is truly not deserved according to the code.

 

[Allieonbeam]

the routine does take your breath away, watching it I wish there was some kind of bonus for execution in compulsories, cause even with all the little deductions, that kid was FLYING, just incredible confident swinging, so if there was an execution bonus it probably would have brought her to 10 anyway