Ridiculous to say that they touch their private areas everyday, while shaping....!!!!!! Like who does that? No coach I know. I'm sure that every coach that is a good spotter and spots a lot has the occasional slip up. I spot a lot, so yes it, rarely, does happen, but if its going on all of the time? Thats abuse.
WAG Bull City Gymnastics Coach Found “Not Guilty” for Sex Crimes Against Minors
- Thread starter anonymouslyanonymous
- Start date
-
- Tags
- coach
DON'T LURK... Join The Discussion!
Members see FEWER ads
starting at 18 the athletes need to take the safe sport course. not required for athletes under 18.
If Aly's book helps just one child it would be a great start.
people.com
U.S. Olympian Aly Raisman Shares Cover of New Children’s Book About Consent (Exclusive)
Aly Raisman, Olympic Gold Medalist, is releasing a new children's book, out April 2, 2024
SupportingHerDreams
Proud Parent
My 9.5 yr old and I listened to the audio version of her book, Fierce: How Competing for Myself Changed Everything. I LOVED how Aly explained her experience with Dr. Nassar in chapter 22. It opened up the door to some great conversation with my daughter about this topic.If Aly's book helps just one child it would be a great start.
U.S. Olympian Aly Raisman Shares Cover of New Children’s Book About Consent (Exclusive)
Aly Raisman, Olympic Gold Medalist, is releasing a new children's book, out April 2, 2024
SupportingHerDreams
Proud Parent
Thank you for sharing!! Big thanks to your amazing daughter. I hope that you both continue to heal and are helped in that process by knowing that sharing your stories is helping save other young girls!!
I am sorry, I know people mean well, but I am flabbergasted to hear people suggest that sex ed is the answer after reading this story.
First, please remember that it is often very young girls who are abused. There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner. Most kids will never be sexually abused, so anything approaching helpful information beyond simple basics of body autonomy would be unnecessarily traumatizing. Graphic sexual images and talk from adults to children can themselves be considered sexual abuse.
But far more importantly, suggesting the victims could have protected themselves is an inexcusable shirking of responsibility. I am not saying this could not ever help, but we need to face the truth about abusive cultures and how everyone in them are manipulated.
Adults need to be protecting the kids. Parents, coaches, and sporting organizations. This abuse scandal, like all others, is the fault of and the responsibility of the ADULTS. We place ANY responsibility on the victims to our everlasting shame. While I understand parents are also victims, often of master manipulators, we have to be honest about this.
Please re-read this harrowing, brave account posted here. Please get beyond the “could a vagina ever be accidentally touched??” question* and think critically about what the culture at this gym was like that created this situation. Watch Athlete A again. Read Chalked Up again.
Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!
We have to look at the culture of the gyms we choose for our kids. We need to look at the coaches and how they coach. Are parents welcome to observe in a way they can really see what is going on? Is there favoritism and its inverse? Is there general professionalism? Is there too much controlling? Is there any shaming- at all, about anything? Is there good communication? Can your child miss practice if they are sick or injured or even for another reason without issue? Are the coaches open and friendly (but not too friendly?) How is discipline handled? Etc. etc. – I cannot list it all here. Each parent must take it upon themselves to learn and to speak up when something does not feel right. If you are afraid to speak up, or feel hesitancy due to fear that your child’s future might be harmed if you speak up, that is a huge problem right there.
And I know it is not only gyms. This goes for any environment your child is in contact with adults and you do not have complete control - from daycare on. Yes, tragically, even babies and toddlers in day care might be sexually (and physically and emotionally) abused. Should they have taken a sex ed class?
Women’s gymnastics IS a place where abuse is more likely because of the age of the athletes, time spent in the gym, and the over all culture. That culture existed long before Larry Nassar- And clearly, as this tragic story indicates, that culture still exists. And I do not mean tragic for the young women who so bravely reported, or tragic because the coach was not put in prison where he belongs. I understand that is the way our criminal justice system works, it is actually quite difficult to get convictions. I mean tragic for the gymnasts and their families who defended this monster, who still cannot accept what was done to them. Because even if they were not sexually abused themselves, they were groomed in a sexual abuse culture- making them more vulnerable to abuse of many kinds, including domestic violence, in the future.
Never forget. Predators are drawn to places not just where there are kids, but where they can access and control VULNERABLE kids- including kids who have been made vulnerable by their environment and their own dreams. Then they participate in and help create the abusive culture where their abuse will be not recognized, ignored, and excused, even by their own victims. They will manipulate- groom- everyone in their sphere, including parents and their fellow coaches.
It is not about sex. It is about POWER.
*Speaking of sex ed, of course, a vagina cannot ever be accidentally touched. Touching a vagina means penetration, so that is digital rape. The vulva- specifically, the mons pubis and labia majora could, perhaps, be very rarely accidentally and momentarily touched OVER THE LEO, NOT UNDER when spotting- not during normal spotting, but I am thinking if there is a need to catch the gymnast unexpectedly to avoid injury, this could accidentally happen. If that ever happened, the coach should immediately apologize profusely to the gymnast and tell the parent exactly what happened.
First, please remember that it is often very young girls who are abused. There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner. Most kids will never be sexually abused, so anything approaching helpful information beyond simple basics of body autonomy would be unnecessarily traumatizing. Graphic sexual images and talk from adults to children can themselves be considered sexual abuse.
But far more importantly, suggesting the victims could have protected themselves is an inexcusable shirking of responsibility. I am not saying this could not ever help, but we need to face the truth about abusive cultures and how everyone in them are manipulated.
Adults need to be protecting the kids. Parents, coaches, and sporting organizations. This abuse scandal, like all others, is the fault of and the responsibility of the ADULTS. We place ANY responsibility on the victims to our everlasting shame. While I understand parents are also victims, often of master manipulators, we have to be honest about this.
Please re-read this harrowing, brave account posted here. Please get beyond the “could a vagina ever be accidentally touched??” question* and think critically about what the culture at this gym was like that created this situation. Watch Athlete A again. Read Chalked Up again.
Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!
We have to look at the culture of the gyms we choose for our kids. We need to look at the coaches and how they coach. Are parents welcome to observe in a way they can really see what is going on? Is there favoritism and its inverse? Is there general professionalism? Is there too much controlling? Is there any shaming- at all, about anything? Is there good communication? Can your child miss practice if they are sick or injured or even for another reason without issue? Are the coaches open and friendly (but not too friendly?) How is discipline handled? Etc. etc. – I cannot list it all here. Each parent must take it upon themselves to learn and to speak up when something does not feel right. If you are afraid to speak up, or feel hesitancy due to fear that your child’s future might be harmed if you speak up, that is a huge problem right there.
And I know it is not only gyms. This goes for any environment your child is in contact with adults and you do not have complete control - from daycare on. Yes, tragically, even babies and toddlers in day care might be sexually (and physically and emotionally) abused. Should they have taken a sex ed class?
Women’s gymnastics IS a place where abuse is more likely because of the age of the athletes, time spent in the gym, and the over all culture. That culture existed long before Larry Nassar- And clearly, as this tragic story indicates, that culture still exists. And I do not mean tragic for the young women who so bravely reported, or tragic because the coach was not put in prison where he belongs. I understand that is the way our criminal justice system works, it is actually quite difficult to get convictions. I mean tragic for the gymnasts and their families who defended this monster, who still cannot accept what was done to them. Because even if they were not sexually abused themselves, they were groomed in a sexual abuse culture- making them more vulnerable to abuse of many kinds, including domestic violence, in the future.
Never forget. Predators are drawn to places not just where there are kids, but where they can access and control VULNERABLE kids- including kids who have been made vulnerable by their environment and their own dreams. Then they participate in and help create the abusive culture where their abuse will be not recognized, ignored, and excused, even by their own victims. They will manipulate- groom- everyone in their sphere, including parents and their fellow coaches.
It is not about sex. It is about POWER.
*Speaking of sex ed, of course, a vagina cannot ever be accidentally touched. Touching a vagina means penetration, so that is digital rape. The vulva- specifically, the mons pubis and labia majora could, perhaps, be very rarely accidentally and momentarily touched OVER THE LEO, NOT UNDER when spotting- not during normal spotting, but I am thinking if there is a need to catch the gymnast unexpectedly to avoid injury, this could accidentally happen. If that ever happened, the coach should immediately apologize profusely to the gymnast and tell the parent exactly what happened.
Last edited:
mezzamare
Gold Membership
While I agree with your argument that environments of abuse are systemic and demand culpability from all adults involved, I disagree with a few of your core arguments.
1. "There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner. Most kids will never be sexually abused, so anything approaching helpful information beyond simple basics of body autonomy would be unnecessarily traumatizing. Graphic sexual images and talk from adults to children can themselves be considered sexual abuse"
I find this to be hyperbolic. You can absolutely talk to even younger children about private areas, inappropriate interactions and the need to talk to a trusted person about anything that makes them uncomfortable. To make a blanket statement that any sort of education about sexual abuse is necessarily graphic is absurd. It's about doing what we all do as parents... let kids know that certain things are dangerous or unhealthy or wrong, even if they can't fully understand the reasons why. You can say to a toddler "If you ever get touched in a way you don't like, tell me." You can talk to preteens about bodily autonomy, about the lines between appropriate and inappropriate interactions with the coach, about the power of their voice and the validity of their feelings. The messages and details build over time.
You even slightly contradict yourself later in your post noting that it's vulnerability that abusers seek out. And you're right. Vulnerability can be bred by all sorts of things—everything from home life circumstances to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, I don't see how you can make the argument that solid, age-appropriate information shared with kids doesn't reduce their vulnerability. By validating their innate sense that something might actually be wrong about a certain interaction, kids are less likely to blow off abusive overtures and more likely to report them. I know, I've seen it happen firsthand with my own daughter (not in a gymnastics context).
2. "Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
I also fundamentally disagree with this idea. I remember quite clearly in elementary school (way before sexual abuse information was made available to kids) a man who drove by us every day, not wearing pants and touching himself. We laughed and joked about it, as fifth graders, because we knew inherently it was strange and that it made us feel awkward. Without understanding that our emotional reaction was a red flag, without having any sort of ground for questioning the behavior of an adult, we said and did nothing, other than discuss it amongst ourselves.
Imagine how much more complicated when the abuse proceeds more subtly and under the guise of "help". Imagine how much more confusing when the perpetrator is someone you have been told, explicitly, to trust and obey, for your own good. When that perpetrator is highly respected by other adults in your life. How do you trust your emotional red flags then? How else, but by being empowered with the understanding that a situation that feels wrong may very well be, and ought to be talked about with another adult.
It's not about graphic details outlining body parts and abusive acts. it's about validating a child's inner alarm system, and letting them know that other adults don't have carte blanche to act as they please, when they please. It's about teaching kids that they have a voice, and these situations are not inevitable just because the perpetrator has more nominal power.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the onus of protection in these situations falls on the children. Clearly, this was (and apparently still is) a disturbing and malfunctional environment. And responsibility for this falls with the parents. That said, educating kids and empowering them, I think, can only help.
1. "There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner. Most kids will never be sexually abused, so anything approaching helpful information beyond simple basics of body autonomy would be unnecessarily traumatizing. Graphic sexual images and talk from adults to children can themselves be considered sexual abuse"
I find this to be hyperbolic. You can absolutely talk to even younger children about private areas, inappropriate interactions and the need to talk to a trusted person about anything that makes them uncomfortable. To make a blanket statement that any sort of education about sexual abuse is necessarily graphic is absurd. It's about doing what we all do as parents... let kids know that certain things are dangerous or unhealthy or wrong, even if they can't fully understand the reasons why. You can say to a toddler "If you ever get touched in a way you don't like, tell me." You can talk to preteens about bodily autonomy, about the lines between appropriate and inappropriate interactions with the coach, about the power of their voice and the validity of their feelings. The messages and details build over time.
You even slightly contradict yourself later in your post noting that it's vulnerability that abusers seek out. And you're right. Vulnerability can be bred by all sorts of things—everything from home life circumstances to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, I don't see how you can make the argument that solid, age-appropriate information shared with kids doesn't reduce their vulnerability. By validating their innate sense that something might actually be wrong about a certain interaction, kids are less likely to blow off abusive overtures and more likely to report them. I know, I've seen it happen firsthand with my own daughter (not in a gymnastics context).
2. "Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
I also fundamentally disagree with this idea. I remember quite clearly in elementary school (way before sexual abuse information was made available to kids) a man who drove by us every day, not wearing pants and touching himself. We laughed and joked about it, as fifth graders, because we knew inherently it was strange and that it made us feel awkward. Without understanding that our emotional reaction was a red flag, without having any sort of ground for questioning the behavior of an adult, we said and did nothing, other than discuss it amongst ourselves.
Imagine how much more complicated when the abuse proceeds more subtly and under the guise of "help". Imagine how much more confusing when the perpetrator is someone you have been told, explicitly, to trust and obey, for your own good. When that perpetrator is highly respected by other adults in your life. How do you trust your emotional red flags then? How else, but by being empowered with the understanding that a situation that feels wrong may very well be, and ought to be talked about with another adult.
It's not about graphic details outlining body parts and abusive acts. it's about validating a child's inner alarm system, and letting them know that other adults don't have carte blanche to act as they please, when they please. It's about teaching kids that they have a voice, and these situations are not inevitable just because the perpetrator has more nominal power.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the onus of protection in these situations falls on the children. Clearly, this was (and apparently still is) a disturbing and malfunctional environment. And responsibility for this falls with the parents. That said, educating kids and empowering them, I think, can only help.
Yes, abuse is systemic. Yes, parents need to take some responsibility. However, you contradict yourself in some places and it's not that I'm being nitpicky but as a sexual abuse survivor here are my thoughts.
"There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner."
There absolutely is! If I had been taught in kindergarten that it's inappropriate for anyone other than a doctor to ever touch me in areas that a swimsuit covers, I probably would've spoken up after I was molested by my father. I know that it didn't happen in a gymnastics facility, but to claim that sex ed couldn't have helped in a scenario like this is absurd.
"Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
How old were they? I mean, you don't know what they were told. Again, going back to the example of my abuse, I was actually told that if I ever spoke up, I'd be in big trouble and both me and my family and whoever I told would all get badly hurt. As a kid, I certainly wasn't going to say anything. It wasn't until I was really taught about abuse and things until I was in middle school that I would've even started to realize that it was wrong. I got the trauma memories back at age 14 and I knew it was wrong and spoke up. But before middle school health - we weren't taught anything about abuse and what was and wasn't appropriate. I'll be completely honest too, if something happened now I'd probably be way to scared to say anything, especially if I was threatened.
"Yes, tragically, even babies and toddlers in day care might be sexually (and physically and emotionally) abused."
You can tell a toddler that if they don't like the way they are being touched and/or it hurts or is uncomfy to scream. You can tell them to go home and tell mommy or daddy about it. There are ways to educate small children. But what about those children who are abused who don't attend daycare? What about what happens in the home?
"I understand that is the way our criminal justice system works, it is actually quite difficult to get convictions."
Very true. Unless there is blatant physical evidence it is extremely hard to prove anything. You need to prove that there was penetration - usually proved through a rape kit, and then you need to prove that the victim didn't want it - meaning witnesses or video evidence. But regardless of the legal system we can educate to try and prevent it.
"Then they participate in and help create the abusive culture where their abuse will be not recognized, ignored, and excused, even by their own victims. They will manipulate- groom- everyone in their sphere, including parents and their fellow coaches."
Hence why if we educate everyone on manipulation and where it's not okay to be touched while being spotted and stretched then we can avoid some of this.
"Each parent must take it upon themselves to learn and to speak up when something does not feel right."
And if the parent endured abuse and doesn't know better? What if the parent is abusive? I'm not saying here that all the blame should be placed on the victims - in fact, none of it should be. What I'm saying is that this shouldn't fall entirely on the parents either. What if they work during practice and can't watch? Schools could play a part in some of this. And again, education education education.
Ultimately I feel like the takeaway from this whole situation is that sex ed is absolutely necessary and if we can help children understand from a young age what is appropriate touching and what isn't we could avoid some of this.
Victim blaming is not okay under any circumstances, but on the other hand, not all of the blame here falls on the parents. The parents don't always know what goes on in the gym.
@Madden3 I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above. Not at all trying to attack you, just trying to help you see my side and want to see more of your side.
"There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner."
There absolutely is! If I had been taught in kindergarten that it's inappropriate for anyone other than a doctor to ever touch me in areas that a swimsuit covers, I probably would've spoken up after I was molested by my father. I know that it didn't happen in a gymnastics facility, but to claim that sex ed couldn't have helped in a scenario like this is absurd.
"Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
How old were they? I mean, you don't know what they were told. Again, going back to the example of my abuse, I was actually told that if I ever spoke up, I'd be in big trouble and both me and my family and whoever I told would all get badly hurt. As a kid, I certainly wasn't going to say anything. It wasn't until I was really taught about abuse and things until I was in middle school that I would've even started to realize that it was wrong. I got the trauma memories back at age 14 and I knew it was wrong and spoke up. But before middle school health - we weren't taught anything about abuse and what was and wasn't appropriate. I'll be completely honest too, if something happened now I'd probably be way to scared to say anything, especially if I was threatened.
"Yes, tragically, even babies and toddlers in day care might be sexually (and physically and emotionally) abused."
You can tell a toddler that if they don't like the way they are being touched and/or it hurts or is uncomfy to scream. You can tell them to go home and tell mommy or daddy about it. There are ways to educate small children. But what about those children who are abused who don't attend daycare? What about what happens in the home?
"I understand that is the way our criminal justice system works, it is actually quite difficult to get convictions."
Very true. Unless there is blatant physical evidence it is extremely hard to prove anything. You need to prove that there was penetration - usually proved through a rape kit, and then you need to prove that the victim didn't want it - meaning witnesses or video evidence. But regardless of the legal system we can educate to try and prevent it.
"Then they participate in and help create the abusive culture where their abuse will be not recognized, ignored, and excused, even by their own victims. They will manipulate- groom- everyone in their sphere, including parents and their fellow coaches."
Hence why if we educate everyone on manipulation and where it's not okay to be touched while being spotted and stretched then we can avoid some of this.
"Each parent must take it upon themselves to learn and to speak up when something does not feel right."
And if the parent endured abuse and doesn't know better? What if the parent is abusive? I'm not saying here that all the blame should be placed on the victims - in fact, none of it should be. What I'm saying is that this shouldn't fall entirely on the parents either. What if they work during practice and can't watch? Schools could play a part in some of this. And again, education education education.
Ultimately I feel like the takeaway from this whole situation is that sex ed is absolutely necessary and if we can help children understand from a young age what is appropriate touching and what isn't we could avoid some of this.
Victim blaming is not okay under any circumstances, but on the other hand, not all of the blame here falls on the parents. The parents don't always know what goes on in the gym.
@Madden3 I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above. Not at all trying to attack you, just trying to help you see my side and want to see more of your side.
Okay. I might not be able to get back to your response for like a month as I'll be off the grid for awhile but i will make sure to get back to your response when I can!
Reply to Mezzamare- I have copied your post here, my comments are in italics.
Mezzamare wrote: While I agree with your argument that environments of abuse are systemic and demand culpability from all adults involved, I disagree with a few of your core arguments.
1. "There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner. Most kids will never be sexually abused, so anything approaching helpful information beyond simple basics of body autonomy would be unnecessarily traumatizing. Graphic sexual images and talk from adults to children can themselves be considered sexual abuse"
I find this to be hyperbolic. You can absolutely talk to even younger children about private areas, inappropriate interactions and the need to talk to a trusted person about anything that makes them uncomfortable. To make a blanket statement that any sort of education about sexual abuse is necessarily graphic is absurd.
Sure, you can talk to children about anything. But I do not believe this adequately protects them from predators who are master manipulators and who are in a position of power over that child. Adult, sexually experienced women were sexually abused by Harvey Weinstein for decades. Why? Because he had real and perceived power over them. I did not say “any sort of education about sexual abuse is necessarily graphic.” My point, which I admit may not have been clear, is that the type of in depth knowledge about various forms of child rape/sexual abuse as well as human psychology and the tactics of sociopaths needed to adequately prepare a child to protect themselves from a situation of systemic abuse from a person who has power over them cannot possibly be given in an age appropriate manner in sex ed lessons at school. This is why parents must be the ones taking on the task of learning these horrible things and applying this knowledge in defense of their kids.
It's about doing what we all do as parents... let kids know that certain things are dangerous or unhealthy or wrong, even if they can't fully understand the reasons why. You can say to a toddler "If you ever get touched in a way you don't like, tell me." You can talk to preteens about bodily autonomy, about the lines between appropriate and inappropriate interactions with the coach, about the power of their voice and the validity of their feelings. The messages and details build over time.
I agree with this, which is why I mentioned “simple basics of bodily autonomy” which I do believe must be taught, and I have taught my own children this way. In the interest of not writing a novel (my first attempt at a post ran over 5 typewritten pages) I did not get into specifics of what a parent might do as far as talking to their own kids, what might be talked about at what age (this varies kid to kid) and how, and most importantly, how often, to help children learn to understand and respect their bodies and have boundaries.. I could say a lot about this. I am the annoying mom who bugs all my friends about talking to kids about their bodies, puberty, and sexual matters before their friends do so they know you (the parent) are the expert. So I am certainly not saying this is valueless, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to set that straight. I am saying that when faced with a manipulative predator that has power over the child or teen, while enmeshed in an abusive culture, the knowledge that child is able to absorb, no matter who provides it or how well, is likely inadequate to protect that child.
You even slightly contradict yourself later in your post noting that it's vulnerability that abusers seek out. And you're right. Vulnerability can be bred by all sorts of things—everything from home life circumstances to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, I don't see how you can make the argument that solid, age-appropriate information shared with kids doesn't reduce their vulnerability. By validating their innate sense that something might actually be wrong about a certain interaction, kids are less likely to blow off abusive overtures and more likely to report them. I know, I've seen it happen firsthand with my own daughter (not in a gymnastics context).
I disagree that I contradicted myself… See previous note. As far as vulnerability, again in the interest of brevity I did not get into all the ways a child can be made more or less vulnerable. My post was specifically about abusive cultures that are created by and/or attract and serve serial predators, particularly in gymnastics.
2. "Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
I also fundamentally disagree with this idea. I remember quite clearly in elementary school (way before sexual abuse information was made available to kids) a man who drove by us every day, not wearing pants and touching himself. We laughed and joked about it, as fifth graders, because we knew inherently it was strange and that it made us feel awkward. Without understanding that our emotional reaction was a red flag, without having any sort of ground for questioning the behavior of an adult, we said and did nothing, other than discuss it amongst ourselves.
Imagine how much more complicated when the abuse proceeds more subtly and under the guise of "help". Imagine how much more confusing when the perpetrator is someone you have been told, explicitly, to trust and obey, for your own good. When that perpetrator is highly respected by other adults in your life. How do you trust your emotional red flags then? How else, but by being empowered with the understanding that a situation that feels wrong may very well be, and ought to be talked about with another adult.
I am not sure where we disagree here? I guess the issue you are having is that I said the girls (meaning some, not all of them, of course) knew the man they defended was abusive yet defended him? I am not sure how to better explain it… They knew, at the very least, that something was wrong- but like you, could not act against their abuser. You could not act at least in part due to the general ignorance about such things of that different time. My impression of the girls at the gym is that they could not act at least in part because they were under the manipulative power of a sexual predator after indoctrination into a culture of abuse.
It's not about graphic details outlining body parts and abusive acts. it's about validating a child's inner alarm system, and letting them know that other adults don't have carte blanche to act as they please, when they please. It's about teaching kids that they have a voice, and these situations are not inevitable just because the perpetrator has more nominal power.
I agree this is all good for parents to do with their kids. (See previous note about this) I disagree this can be adequately done in a sex ed class for kids or teens. And again, I am pessimistic that in any case, teaching children about this is truly effective in the abuse culture situations I am writing about, for most children and teens. Obviously, this IS enough for some victims/potential victims- the ones who speak out or who the predator avoids because he senses they may make trouble for him. For some victims or potential victims, their own sense of self is so strong they speak out even without such instruction. But for so many it is not enough- because predators know how to get around both parental cautions and self autonomy. They spend a lifetime figuring this out and perfecting their methods. It is not about me underestimating the kids or sex abuse instruction- I am cautioning against underestimating the power of the predators.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the onus of protection in these situations falls on the children. Clearly, this was (and apparently still is) a disturbing and malfunctional environment. And responsibility for this falls with the parents. That said, educating kids and empowering them, I think, can only help.
Overall I agree, but I thought this thread was putting too much emphasis on the education strategy, which again, I believe is inadequate and carries with it its own risks- which is why I wrote my post. Also, just to be clear, I do not think parents are alone in this- coaches and other adults in these environments also bear responsibility to stop abuse.. But as a mother, my primary message is a call to action to other parents.
I hope this is helpful in clarifying my concerns.
Mezzamare wrote: While I agree with your argument that environments of abuse are systemic and demand culpability from all adults involved, I disagree with a few of your core arguments.
1. "There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner. Most kids will never be sexually abused, so anything approaching helpful information beyond simple basics of body autonomy would be unnecessarily traumatizing. Graphic sexual images and talk from adults to children can themselves be considered sexual abuse"
I find this to be hyperbolic. You can absolutely talk to even younger children about private areas, inappropriate interactions and the need to talk to a trusted person about anything that makes them uncomfortable. To make a blanket statement that any sort of education about sexual abuse is necessarily graphic is absurd.
Sure, you can talk to children about anything. But I do not believe this adequately protects them from predators who are master manipulators and who are in a position of power over that child. Adult, sexually experienced women were sexually abused by Harvey Weinstein for decades. Why? Because he had real and perceived power over them. I did not say “any sort of education about sexual abuse is necessarily graphic.” My point, which I admit may not have been clear, is that the type of in depth knowledge about various forms of child rape/sexual abuse as well as human psychology and the tactics of sociopaths needed to adequately prepare a child to protect themselves from a situation of systemic abuse from a person who has power over them cannot possibly be given in an age appropriate manner in sex ed lessons at school. This is why parents must be the ones taking on the task of learning these horrible things and applying this knowledge in defense of their kids.
It's about doing what we all do as parents... let kids know that certain things are dangerous or unhealthy or wrong, even if they can't fully understand the reasons why. You can say to a toddler "If you ever get touched in a way you don't like, tell me." You can talk to preteens about bodily autonomy, about the lines between appropriate and inappropriate interactions with the coach, about the power of their voice and the validity of their feelings. The messages and details build over time.
I agree with this, which is why I mentioned “simple basics of bodily autonomy” which I do believe must be taught, and I have taught my own children this way. In the interest of not writing a novel (my first attempt at a post ran over 5 typewritten pages) I did not get into specifics of what a parent might do as far as talking to their own kids, what might be talked about at what age (this varies kid to kid) and how, and most importantly, how often, to help children learn to understand and respect their bodies and have boundaries.. I could say a lot about this. I am the annoying mom who bugs all my friends about talking to kids about their bodies, puberty, and sexual matters before their friends do so they know you (the parent) are the expert. So I am certainly not saying this is valueless, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to set that straight. I am saying that when faced with a manipulative predator that has power over the child or teen, while enmeshed in an abusive culture, the knowledge that child is able to absorb, no matter who provides it or how well, is likely inadequate to protect that child.
You even slightly contradict yourself later in your post noting that it's vulnerability that abusers seek out. And you're right. Vulnerability can be bred by all sorts of things—everything from home life circumstances to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, I don't see how you can make the argument that solid, age-appropriate information shared with kids doesn't reduce their vulnerability. By validating their innate sense that something might actually be wrong about a certain interaction, kids are less likely to blow off abusive overtures and more likely to report them. I know, I've seen it happen firsthand with my own daughter (not in a gymnastics context).
I disagree that I contradicted myself… See previous note. As far as vulnerability, again in the interest of brevity I did not get into all the ways a child can be made more or less vulnerable. My post was specifically about abusive cultures that are created by and/or attract and serve serial predators, particularly in gymnastics.
2. "Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
I also fundamentally disagree with this idea. I remember quite clearly in elementary school (way before sexual abuse information was made available to kids) a man who drove by us every day, not wearing pants and touching himself. We laughed and joked about it, as fifth graders, because we knew inherently it was strange and that it made us feel awkward. Without understanding that our emotional reaction was a red flag, without having any sort of ground for questioning the behavior of an adult, we said and did nothing, other than discuss it amongst ourselves.
Imagine how much more complicated when the abuse proceeds more subtly and under the guise of "help". Imagine how much more confusing when the perpetrator is someone you have been told, explicitly, to trust and obey, for your own good. When that perpetrator is highly respected by other adults in your life. How do you trust your emotional red flags then? How else, but by being empowered with the understanding that a situation that feels wrong may very well be, and ought to be talked about with another adult.
I am not sure where we disagree here? I guess the issue you are having is that I said the girls (meaning some, not all of them, of course) knew the man they defended was abusive yet defended him? I am not sure how to better explain it… They knew, at the very least, that something was wrong- but like you, could not act against their abuser. You could not act at least in part due to the general ignorance about such things of that different time. My impression of the girls at the gym is that they could not act at least in part because they were under the manipulative power of a sexual predator after indoctrination into a culture of abuse.
It's not about graphic details outlining body parts and abusive acts. it's about validating a child's inner alarm system, and letting them know that other adults don't have carte blanche to act as they please, when they please. It's about teaching kids that they have a voice, and these situations are not inevitable just because the perpetrator has more nominal power.
I agree this is all good for parents to do with their kids. (See previous note about this) I disagree this can be adequately done in a sex ed class for kids or teens. And again, I am pessimistic that in any case, teaching children about this is truly effective in the abuse culture situations I am writing about, for most children and teens. Obviously, this IS enough for some victims/potential victims- the ones who speak out or who the predator avoids because he senses they may make trouble for him. For some victims or potential victims, their own sense of self is so strong they speak out even without such instruction. But for so many it is not enough- because predators know how to get around both parental cautions and self autonomy. They spend a lifetime figuring this out and perfecting their methods. It is not about me underestimating the kids or sex abuse instruction- I am cautioning against underestimating the power of the predators.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the onus of protection in these situations falls on the children. Clearly, this was (and apparently still is) a disturbing and malfunctional environment. And responsibility for this falls with the parents. That said, educating kids and empowering them, I think, can only help.
Overall I agree, but I thought this thread was putting too much emphasis on the education strategy, which again, I believe is inadequate and carries with it its own risks- which is why I wrote my post. Also, just to be clear, I do not think parents are alone in this- coaches and other adults in these environments also bear responsibility to stop abuse.. But as a mother, my primary message is a call to action to other parents.
I hope this is helpful in clarifying my concerns.
mezzamare
Gold Membership
Well yes, I think we do agree more than disagree. And I understand your pain in trying to convey a point without it turning into a dissertation, lol.
I do feel like your initial post suggested some opinions that you are now clarifying in a more moderate way. I absolutely agree that abuse and assault is facilitated by imbalances in power. I agree that education on assault and abuse is not a magic shield that protects children across the board. But I also don't think the thread was suggesting as much, although it did focus heavily on that approach as something tangible and well within one's power to implement.
Also, as you and Lynn pointed out, silence is the ideal breeding ground for abuse, whether obtained through blunt or tacit threat. If I were to start sketching out a definition for "abuse education", it wouldn't necessarily be about the forms of abuse or the psychology of perpetrators. It would be about the fact that voice and "listening to your gut" is a valuable tool in the fight. So we may have been debating without defining our terms.
I think we also agree it is the duty of parents, coaches, and even owners to be aware and, more importantly, ACT when abuse is identified. In this gym's situation, this safeguard (for the most part) failed miserably. If we are expecting the other adults in the room to be the vanguard of protection, then this situation might make us think twice.
I guess I'm wondering... if you were tasked by USAG with developing a safety net system to guard athletes against abuse, what would you do?
I do feel like your initial post suggested some opinions that you are now clarifying in a more moderate way. I absolutely agree that abuse and assault is facilitated by imbalances in power. I agree that education on assault and abuse is not a magic shield that protects children across the board. But I also don't think the thread was suggesting as much, although it did focus heavily on that approach as something tangible and well within one's power to implement.
Also, as you and Lynn pointed out, silence is the ideal breeding ground for abuse, whether obtained through blunt or tacit threat. If I were to start sketching out a definition for "abuse education", it wouldn't necessarily be about the forms of abuse or the psychology of perpetrators. It would be about the fact that voice and "listening to your gut" is a valuable tool in the fight. So we may have been debating without defining our terms.
I think we also agree it is the duty of parents, coaches, and even owners to be aware and, more importantly, ACT when abuse is identified. In this gym's situation, this safeguard (for the most part) failed miserably. If we are expecting the other adults in the room to be the vanguard of protection, then this situation might make us think twice.
I guess I'm wondering... if you were tasked by USAG with developing a safety net system to guard athletes against abuse, what would you do?
Ok , first I would create a task force with a wide variety of experts in the field of sexual, physical, medical and psychological abuse, as well as experts in cults and other cultures of abuse - (this is the area I am most concerned parents and coaches do not adequately comprehend.) Including psychologists, doctors, social psychologists, police officers and other law enforcement and attorneys who have knowledge of sex crimes and other forms of abuse. These experts must be empowered to work independently.
Their expertise must then be informed by in depth interviews with abuse survivors from gymnastics (and other sports, schools or youth activity) abusive cultures- and their parents, as well as those who were part of those cultures but were not themselves abused directly.
I would ask this task force to create an in depth course for parents and would require parents of any and all USAG athletes to, prior to the gymnast's first competitve season, take this course which would focus on the various types of abuse and how abusive cultures work with emphasis on how predators use the culture they are in to manipulate and "groom" everyone in the culture, not only their targets. This must include a complete exploration of how the abusive, controlling and secretive culture in elite USAG gymnastics not only hurt athletes in itself but also attracted and protected the predator Larry Nassar.
The course would also offer a complete explanation of the various tactics abusers use, and an exhaustive list of actions parents and gymnasts should feel empowered to take should they have any concerns at thier gym or behavior they see at meets, with the assurance that any blowback from reporting will not be tolerated. For the gymnast to remain in the sport, a refresher course or continuing education along these lines would be required annually for the parents. I believe that parents can be empowered to talk to their children about age appropriate things and how to best do that could be part of the course. There could also be a more age appropriate course designed for older teens to take, with the knowledge and permission of their parents.
Coaches should also be required to take a version of same designed specifically for coaches. I think coaches have barriers to feeling comfortable reporting that are different than parents. Coaches must also be trained in proper spotting and stretching techniques, helped to understand how to be firm and maintain control without being controlling or abusive, etc.
This would have to be accompanied by policy changes made by the same or a similar independent task force such as (forgive me if any are already in place, I am not up to date on this): Threats of or incidences of blackballing gymnasts for ANY reason by any USAG gyms are recognized as an abuse tactic and investigated and blackballing gym is disciplined by USAG. Every USAG gym must state clearly on their website a (vetted by the task force) explanation and commitment about how athletes can get on the team and how they will be advanced in levels. It also must state clearly what the expectations on athletes and parents are, as far as performance, attitude, practice/meet attendance, financial commitment and volunteering. Also, how injuries and illness are handled, precise guidelines of how spotting and stretching are done and who does these, where athletes can privately change clothing. If any gym is suggesting massage, physical therapy or medical visits for any athlete I believe the practitioners and their techniques must be fully vetted by the task force and appointments must occur only in the office of the practitioner with parent present. I am sure I am forgetting some things, but you get the gist.
Last edited:
Yea, you can create a course like this, and that's great. But who says the parents are actually going to pay it any mind?
I am replying here to Xcelgymnast_Lynn's previous post. My comments in italics:
Dear Xcelgymnast_Lynn: Thank you for your honest and courageous post. I am so very sorry that you were sexually abused by your father.
My post was very specifically based on my knowledge of and personal experience with cultures of abuse that are created by predators or attract predators, and have dynamics that serve the interests of serial predators who sexually prey on the children of others- cultures where there tend to be many victims over a very long time, where there may be multiple predators, and where the entire culture serves to minimizes and hide abuse and gaslight anyone who questions, objects or reports.
While of course there are many similarities, familial sexual abuse is a different subject with a different dynamic that I was not in any way attempting to address in my post. It is important and necessary to discuss family sexual abuse and how it can be prevented. But it is simply not my area of directed study or personal experience. I was responding to posts that suggested that effective means of preventing a situation like the serial sexual abuse at the gym this thread is about is sex ed at schools. That specific assertion is what I am disagreeing with.
I am talking about the specific situations like Bull City, previous scandals at USAG and the long ago abusive school of my own personal experience, where children and their parents were manipulated in multiple ways into putting blind trust in the wrong person or entity. Once in the thrall of this type of culture, even competent adults who understand very well the differences between ok and not ok touching are taken in by the lies and manipulation that protect the predators.
That is why my message is to parents about empowering themselves to be better able to protect their kids. This is not a message that is going to appeal to everyone, but it is one I deeply believe in.
I do not know nor can I know the pain of your experience. Please know I wish you well on your journey to healing, and I appreciate your challenging questions, which I will attempt to answer here:
Xcel gymnast_Lynn wrote: Yes, abuse is systemic. Yes, parents need to take some responsibility. However, you contradict yourself in some places and it's not that I'm being nitpicky but as a sexual abuse survivor here are my thoughts.
"There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner."
There absolutely is! If I had been taught in kindergarten that it's inappropriate for anyone other than a doctor to ever touch me in areas that a swimsuit covers, I probably would've spoken up after I was molested by my father. I know that it didn't happen in a gymnastics facility, but to claim that sex ed couldn't have helped in a scenario like this is absurd.
I did not say instruction is never helpful. I am not opposed to sex ed in schools within rational guidelines.
I believe it is not likely children will report simply because they have been given such instruction by schools – OR by parents.
To best protect children, I believe parents need to cultivate a relationship where their child feels safe and reasonably comfortable discussing sexual matters with the parent- so it is not really about instruction so much as it is about cultivating that relationship. This takes lots of time and individually tailored discussions. Schools cannot do this. They are simply not set up this way. I am trying to help parents understand what they can do and need to do to protect their kids in a meaningful way.
"Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
How old were they? I mean, you don't know what they were told.
I am going by the account posted at the beginning of this thread.
Again, going back to the example of my abuse, I was actually told that if I ever spoke up, I'd be in big trouble and both me and my family and whoever I told would all get badly hurt. As a kid, I certainly wasn't going to say anything. It wasn't until I was really taught about abuse and things until I was in middle school that I would've even started to realize that it was wrong. I got the trauma memories back at age 14 and I knew it was wrong and spoke up. But before middle school health - we weren't taught anything about abuse and what was and wasn't appropriate. I'll be completely honest too, if something happened now I'd probably be way to scared to say anything, especially if I was threatened.
I am so sorry, sexual abuse affects a person’s life long after the abuse has stopped. It is horrible and it should not have happened to you. Reporting abuse is exceptionally hard and I believe in many cases, simply impossible. This is why I do not think it is effective strategy to rely on whether or not an abused child reports the abuse. I am trying to encourage parents (and other adults) to understand they can and must learn how to most effectively prevent abuse before it happens.
"Yes, tragically, even babies and toddlers in day care might be sexually (and physically and emotionally) abused."
You can tell a toddler that if they don't like the way they are being touched and/or it hurts or is uncomfy to scream. You can tell them to go home and tell mommy or daddy about it. There are ways to educate small children.
I do not believe such instruction adequately protects most children if they are the target of a manipulative abuser who has control over them.
But what about those children who are abused who don't attend daycare? What about what happens in the home?
Yes, many children are abused by immediate and extended family members. The sad fact is that child sexual abuse can happen in any situation there are adults around children. Sexual abuse also happens between juveniles including between siblings and cousins. I was not addressing sexual abuse in families in my post.
"I understand that is the way our criminal justice system works, it is actually quite difficult to get convictions."
Very true. Unless there is blatant physical evidence it is extremely hard to prove anything. You need to prove that there was penetration - usually proved through a rape kit, and then you need to prove that the victim didn't want it - meaning witnesses or video evidence. But regardless of the legal system we can educate to try and prevent it.
While laws vary state to state, legal definitions of child sexual abuse includes acts aside penetration. Ages of consent vary state to state, but all recognize that children under the age of consent cannot consent. My original point was it is actually difficult to prove any crime beyond a reasonable doubt. But yes, absolutely, once the abuse occurs, seeing justice in the courts is very difficult. So prevention is vital. We agree. We just have different ideas about what constitutes effective prevention. Prevention is exactly what I am trying to promote with my post.
"Then they participate in and help create the abusive culture where their abuse will be not recognized, ignored, and excused, even by their own victims. They will manipulate- groom- everyone in their sphere, including parents and their fellow coaches."
Hence why if we educate everyone on manipulation and where it's not okay to be touched while being spotted and stretched then we can avoid some of this.
My message is that parents (and coaches- adults) need to educate themselves. Adults are far more capable than children of safely and adequately comprehending the horrible things that need to be understood, and of acting on that knowledge.
"Each parent must take it upon themselves to learn and to speak up when something does not feel right."
And if the parent endured abuse and doesn't know better? What if the parent is abusive?
As stated before, I was not addressing familial sexual abuse in my post.
Otherwise, no matter what the parent’s past or personal issues, the parent’s responsibility is to protect their child. I believe most parents can do this, but they need to understand what they need to be wary of and how to protect their kid. In the cultures of abuse I am talking about, abuse happens in part because parents are dis-empowered in various ways. Parents must take back their power to protect their kids.
I'm not saying here that all the blame should be placed on the victims - in fact, none of it should be. What I'm saying is that this shouldn't fall entirely on the parents either. What if they work during practice and can't watch? Schools could play a part in some of this. And again, education education education.
Ultimately I feel like the takeaway from this whole situation is that sex ed is absolutely necessary and if we can help children understand from a young age what is appropriate touching and what isn't we could avoid some of this.
My message is about empowering and informing parents, so I am speaking to parents who are capable of rising to this challenge. No parent is perfect- I believe even flawed and struggling parents can learn how to better protect their kids. I believe in in depth education- of adults.
Victim blaming is not okay under any circumstances, but on the other hand, not all of the blame here falls on the parents. The parents don't always know what goes on in the gym.
Blame belongs solely to the abuser and those with power who knowingly enable and cover-up abuse. My message is not that anyone else should be blamed. It is that parents can and must protect their children, and to do so, they must make it their business to know what is going on in their child’s life- friend group, school, online, etc. For gymnastics parents, it also takes knowing and understanding the culture of the gym and the methods of the coaches. It takes knowing your own child and asking the right questions the right way.
Very importantly, parents need to educate themselves about cultures of abuse so as to protect themselves from manipulation and grooming. We need to be able to recognize all tactics of predators.
None of this is easy, in fact, it is very, very hard. But it is our job to protect our kids. Unlike my parents, parents today DO have access to that knowledge. I truly believe we are capable of so much more when it comes to protecting our kids.
@Madden3 I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above. Not at all trying to attack you, just trying to help you see my side and want to see more of your side.
Thank you for the opportunity to attempt to clarify my points. I appreciate your post.
Dear Xcelgymnast_Lynn: Thank you for your honest and courageous post. I am so very sorry that you were sexually abused by your father.
My post was very specifically based on my knowledge of and personal experience with cultures of abuse that are created by predators or attract predators, and have dynamics that serve the interests of serial predators who sexually prey on the children of others- cultures where there tend to be many victims over a very long time, where there may be multiple predators, and where the entire culture serves to minimizes and hide abuse and gaslight anyone who questions, objects or reports.
While of course there are many similarities, familial sexual abuse is a different subject with a different dynamic that I was not in any way attempting to address in my post. It is important and necessary to discuss family sexual abuse and how it can be prevented. But it is simply not my area of directed study or personal experience. I was responding to posts that suggested that effective means of preventing a situation like the serial sexual abuse at the gym this thread is about is sex ed at schools. That specific assertion is what I am disagreeing with.
I am talking about the specific situations like Bull City, previous scandals at USAG and the long ago abusive school of my own personal experience, where children and their parents were manipulated in multiple ways into putting blind trust in the wrong person or entity. Once in the thrall of this type of culture, even competent adults who understand very well the differences between ok and not ok touching are taken in by the lies and manipulation that protect the predators.
That is why my message is to parents about empowering themselves to be better able to protect their kids. This is not a message that is going to appeal to everyone, but it is one I deeply believe in.
I do not know nor can I know the pain of your experience. Please know I wish you well on your journey to healing, and I appreciate your challenging questions, which I will attempt to answer here:
Xcel gymnast_Lynn wrote: Yes, abuse is systemic. Yes, parents need to take some responsibility. However, you contradict yourself in some places and it's not that I'm being nitpicky but as a sexual abuse survivor here are my thoughts.
"There is no way a sex ed class could teach what needs to be understood about sexual abuse and cultures of abuse in an age appropriate manner."
There absolutely is! If I had been taught in kindergarten that it's inappropriate for anyone other than a doctor to ever touch me in areas that a swimsuit covers, I probably would've spoken up after I was molested by my father. I know that it didn't happen in a gymnastics facility, but to claim that sex ed couldn't have helped in a scenario like this is absurd.
I did not say instruction is never helpful. I am not opposed to sex ed in schools within rational guidelines.
I believe it is not likely children will report simply because they have been given such instruction by schools – OR by parents.
To best protect children, I believe parents need to cultivate a relationship where their child feels safe and reasonably comfortable discussing sexual matters with the parent- so it is not really about instruction so much as it is about cultivating that relationship. This takes lots of time and individually tailored discussions. Schools cannot do this. They are simply not set up this way. I am trying to help parents understand what they can do and need to do to protect their kids in a meaningful way.
"Don’t you get it? The same gymnasts who defended the abuser in this gym KNEW what he was doing was abuse. They made up a song about it!"
How old were they? I mean, you don't know what they were told.
I am going by the account posted at the beginning of this thread.
Again, going back to the example of my abuse, I was actually told that if I ever spoke up, I'd be in big trouble and both me and my family and whoever I told would all get badly hurt. As a kid, I certainly wasn't going to say anything. It wasn't until I was really taught about abuse and things until I was in middle school that I would've even started to realize that it was wrong. I got the trauma memories back at age 14 and I knew it was wrong and spoke up. But before middle school health - we weren't taught anything about abuse and what was and wasn't appropriate. I'll be completely honest too, if something happened now I'd probably be way to scared to say anything, especially if I was threatened.
I am so sorry, sexual abuse affects a person’s life long after the abuse has stopped. It is horrible and it should not have happened to you. Reporting abuse is exceptionally hard and I believe in many cases, simply impossible. This is why I do not think it is effective strategy to rely on whether or not an abused child reports the abuse. I am trying to encourage parents (and other adults) to understand they can and must learn how to most effectively prevent abuse before it happens.
"Yes, tragically, even babies and toddlers in day care might be sexually (and physically and emotionally) abused."
You can tell a toddler that if they don't like the way they are being touched and/or it hurts or is uncomfy to scream. You can tell them to go home and tell mommy or daddy about it. There are ways to educate small children.
I do not believe such instruction adequately protects most children if they are the target of a manipulative abuser who has control over them.
But what about those children who are abused who don't attend daycare? What about what happens in the home?
Yes, many children are abused by immediate and extended family members. The sad fact is that child sexual abuse can happen in any situation there are adults around children. Sexual abuse also happens between juveniles including between siblings and cousins. I was not addressing sexual abuse in families in my post.
"I understand that is the way our criminal justice system works, it is actually quite difficult to get convictions."
Very true. Unless there is blatant physical evidence it is extremely hard to prove anything. You need to prove that there was penetration - usually proved through a rape kit, and then you need to prove that the victim didn't want it - meaning witnesses or video evidence. But regardless of the legal system we can educate to try and prevent it.
While laws vary state to state, legal definitions of child sexual abuse includes acts aside penetration. Ages of consent vary state to state, but all recognize that children under the age of consent cannot consent. My original point was it is actually difficult to prove any crime beyond a reasonable doubt. But yes, absolutely, once the abuse occurs, seeing justice in the courts is very difficult. So prevention is vital. We agree. We just have different ideas about what constitutes effective prevention. Prevention is exactly what I am trying to promote with my post.
"Then they participate in and help create the abusive culture where their abuse will be not recognized, ignored, and excused, even by their own victims. They will manipulate- groom- everyone in their sphere, including parents and their fellow coaches."
Hence why if we educate everyone on manipulation and where it's not okay to be touched while being spotted and stretched then we can avoid some of this.
My message is that parents (and coaches- adults) need to educate themselves. Adults are far more capable than children of safely and adequately comprehending the horrible things that need to be understood, and of acting on that knowledge.
"Each parent must take it upon themselves to learn and to speak up when something does not feel right."
And if the parent endured abuse and doesn't know better? What if the parent is abusive?
As stated before, I was not addressing familial sexual abuse in my post.
Otherwise, no matter what the parent’s past or personal issues, the parent’s responsibility is to protect their child. I believe most parents can do this, but they need to understand what they need to be wary of and how to protect their kid. In the cultures of abuse I am talking about, abuse happens in part because parents are dis-empowered in various ways. Parents must take back their power to protect their kids.
I'm not saying here that all the blame should be placed on the victims - in fact, none of it should be. What I'm saying is that this shouldn't fall entirely on the parents either. What if they work during practice and can't watch? Schools could play a part in some of this. And again, education education education.
Ultimately I feel like the takeaway from this whole situation is that sex ed is absolutely necessary and if we can help children understand from a young age what is appropriate touching and what isn't we could avoid some of this.
My message is about empowering and informing parents, so I am speaking to parents who are capable of rising to this challenge. No parent is perfect- I believe even flawed and struggling parents can learn how to better protect their kids. I believe in in depth education- of adults.
Victim blaming is not okay under any circumstances, but on the other hand, not all of the blame here falls on the parents. The parents don't always know what goes on in the gym.
Blame belongs solely to the abuser and those with power who knowingly enable and cover-up abuse. My message is not that anyone else should be blamed. It is that parents can and must protect their children, and to do so, they must make it their business to know what is going on in their child’s life- friend group, school, online, etc. For gymnastics parents, it also takes knowing and understanding the culture of the gym and the methods of the coaches. It takes knowing your own child and asking the right questions the right way.
Very importantly, parents need to educate themselves about cultures of abuse so as to protect themselves from manipulation and grooming. We need to be able to recognize all tactics of predators.
None of this is easy, in fact, it is very, very hard. But it is our job to protect our kids. Unlike my parents, parents today DO have access to that knowledge. I truly believe we are capable of so much more when it comes to protecting our kids.
@Madden3 I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above. Not at all trying to attack you, just trying to help you see my side and want to see more of your side.
Thank you for the opportunity to attempt to clarify my points. I appreciate your post.
I’ve wanted to respond to this for a while but just couldn’t get together all I wanted to say. I am in the same state as you, though opposite end of it. I am a mom of a gymnast, a former gymnast, and a forensic/child maltreatment (physical and sexual abuse) medical provider. The legal system is so much more complicated and flawed than many folks realize. I hope your daughter won’t mind that I shared her story and words with my colleagues, and we are all so moved by her courage and wisdom (as well as angry with the outcome). Most folks don’t realize how hard it can be for a child to disclose, or how they often disclose in stages, or how often they don’t have support to do so. I am so, so sorry she and others didn’t get to see proper justice served. But please let her know how impactful and inspiring her words have been for some of us here in the trenches of this work. Also, thank you, as her mother, for supporting her and standing by her. Feel free to PM if you ever need to vent. Wishing your daughter (and your family) healing and strength.
We are going through something similar. Lots of inappropriate and grooming behaviors. The owner supports and defends this coach. USAG was investigating but they dropped their membership so that they wouldn’t be disciplined. The owner and head coach are on administrative hold with USAG. Investigation will be picked back up if he ever tries to reapply. Team is cut in half but I’m sure they will just rebuild. They are all AAU now and he’s on probation with them which means nothing. Nothing we can do to stop him.
He ticks all boxes for grooming but they don’t care until something physical happens.
He ticks all boxes for grooming but they don’t care until something physical happens.
bookworm
Proud Parent
Yes you can....you can leave that gym immediately if that's what you see him doing to your kid. You might not be able to stop him in that particular gym ( which is revolting to even have to write) but you can stop his access to your child by getting out of there.
Already did that, as did 30 plus girls this past season. There are still people there that were moved onto the team to “fill in” from the rec classes and they are clueless. We all find out eventually but I hate to keep seeing girls go through this.
2024 State Gymnastics Meet Discussion Thread
Lots of State Meets going on right now... talk about them here!
Average age per level?
I attended a not so local meet this weekend and was shocked by the ages of the lower level...
New trend in gym ownership? (The Business Side Of Gymnastics / Powers Gymnastics)
Has anyone had experience with Powers Gymnastics? It sounds like Jill Powers owns this company...
Xcel or Development Program: Which Is The Right Path For Your Gymnast?
Tell us which program you picked and why?
Night Time Practice & Dinner
Eat before or after practice???
DON'T LURK... Join The Discussion!
Members see FEWER ads
Gymnaverse :: Recent Activity
Tags
ankle
back handspring
back walkover
bar
bars
beam
block
boys
brag
camps
canada
cast
chalk
championships
child
circle
class
classic
coach
coaches
coaching
college
compete
competing
competition
compulsory
conditioning
daughter
deduction
dismount
double
drills
elite
fear
first meet
flexibility
floor
floor music
floor routine
flyaway
foot
frustrated
full
games
giant
gold
grips
hair
hand
handspring
handstand
hours
injury
issues
jo
judging
kip
knee
layout
leotard
level
level 3
level 4
level 5
level 6
level 7
meet
meet report
meet results
mens gymnastics
mental
mental block
mom
moving up
music
national
nationals
ncaa
olympics
optional
pain
platinum
practice
press
preteam
program
quitting
region
regionals
requirements
results
rip
roll
roundoff
routine
schedule
school
score
scoring
season
shoulder
silver
skills
state
state meet
states
strength
summer
testing
tips
tops
training
trampoline
tuck
tumbling
twisting
usag
vault
venting
videos
walkover
world
wrist
xcel
year old
College Gym News
Similar threads
New Posts
-
-
-
A
-
-
AAnon Do some regions actually score harder than others? Data analysis says no!
- Latest: Anonymous (de91)
