WAG Choreography

[John]

I believe in Level 8 is the first time an athlete will be judged outright on over all performance of the routine. IT has slipped my mind on the actual terminology. But I believe prior to level 8 the athlete is scored on execution alone, toes pointed, jumps and leaps proper, landings etc. Then comes Level 8 and the judge gets to offer artistry deductions. Hate it.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Then comes Level 8 and the judge gets to offer artistry deductions. Hate it.

I thought you hated compulsory because of the deductions on the text/coreography.

 

[John]

I do and I also hate that they judge gets to decide if he or she liked how you danced or did not dance and deduct accordingly. That is not judging execution that is opinion. Opinion has no place in judging.

 

[LJL07]

Believe me...the dance matters. I really had two judges look at the level 8 floor routine. Not even same state judges, and they BOTH independently gave feedback that there are composition/dance deductions. The subjective nature is hard for me to wrap my head around...

 

[LJL07]

Sorry I thought you were speaking broadly about the level.

Nearly all of that point is coming from the new skills, and acro is skill.

There might be some coming from the coreography and I would say that as it’s a new routine it’s likely not as cohesive and sharp. Not because of the actual coreography but it’s likely not as smooth as she is likely still thinking about it and what comes next and it’s not muscle memory yet.

The acro is actually not considered part of the "skills." It is considered part of the dance. Acro is not required in routines, and that is why most people in JO won't mess with it. But just to make things confusing, acro is scored as if it were a skill (based on the execution/technique) and is usually pretty deduction heavy for most kids. If that makes sense. I'll send you both routines via PM if you want to see the difference in choreography. It might make more sense if you see it. Like I said, there are definitely some deductions happening on the skills. Absolutely. But she is losing a good additional .3-ish on just the dance.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I do and I also hate that they judge gets to decide if he or she liked how you danced or did not dance and deduct accordingly. That is not judging execution that is opinion. Opinion has no place in judging.

Believe me...the dance matters. I really had two judges look at the level 8 floor routine. Not even same state judges, and they BOTH independently gave feedback that there are composition/dance deductions. The subjective nature is hard for me to wrap my head around...

Yes its not like track/swimming where your time is your time.

Nature of the sport. Judge likes cute blondes, a dark haired serious kid will take a hit.

Next meet judge likes dark haired kids with serious music, the cute blonde takes a hit.

And the Saints should be going to the Super Bowl except the refs pick and choose which penaltys they call.

Any given Sunday or meet.

And most of that point lower is not coming from the dance. Perhaps some from the execution of it but not the dance itself.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

acro is scored as if it were a skill (based on the execution/technique) and is usually pretty deduction heavy for most kids. Absolutely. But she is losing a good additional .3-ish on just the dance.

I don't need to see it. Again, the issue is not with the coreography itself but how your daughter is executing it. Its a new rountine. And the point lower is as I said mostly skill based.

My daughters coreography is horribly boring. I whine to avail about it. And it drives me nuts. Because the coach says, kid is happy with it, its fine. Last thing you want to do is add more for her to be deducted on. And when her tumbling is on and she sticks her landings she beats the kids on her team with "fancier" dance stuff. Which then makes their parents nuts.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I believe in Level 8 is the first time an athlete will be judged outright on over all performance of the routine. IT has slipped my mind on the actual terminology. But I believe prior to level 8 the athlete is scored on execution alone, toes pointed, jumps and leaps proper, landings etc. Then comes Level 8 and the judge gets to offer artistry deductions. Hate it.

Artistry and presentation is judged at every level, with an up to .3 deduction.

 

[raenndrops]

The acro is actually not considered part of the "skills." It is considered part of the dance. Acro is not required in routines, and that is why most people in JO won't mess with it. But just to make things confusing, acro is scored as if it were a skill (based on the execution/technique) and is usually pretty deduction heavy for most kids. If that makes sense. I'll send you both routines via PM if you want to see the difference in choreography. It might make more sense if you see it. Like I said, there are definitely some deductions happening on the skills. Absolutely. But she is losing a good additional .3-ish on just the dance.

Acro IS required ... ACRO is the tumbling (RO, BHS, BLO, BT, FLO, FP, FT, Full, etc...). They are required to do acro at all optional levels. Dance is the leaps, jumps, turns, etc... There are "non-skills" that can also be part of the dance that are used as fillers and they should not really be judged (and aren't in L6-L7 and XB-XP - not sure about XDb but don't think it is judges there ... EXCEPT in the sense of "does it fit with the music?").

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Acro IS required ... ACRO is the tumbling (RO, BHS, BLO, BT, FLO, FP, FT, Full, etc...). They are required to do acro at all optional levels. Dance is the leaps, jumps, turns, etc... There are "non-skills" that can also be part of the dance that are used as fillers and they should not really be judged (and aren't in L6-L7 and XB-XP - not sure about XDb but don't think it is judges there ... EXCEPT in the sense of "does it fit with the music?").

This. And along the lines of fit the music...........

New level/new coreography can be rushed, moves unfinished, so an arm that should end up overhead, gets there, too quickly or with sloppy open hands or not high enough. Extension that are not fully extended

Music that lends it self to crisp sharp movements and the gymnast is to slow and timid about it

Music that lends it self to slower movement done to quickly.

Hesitation, overthinking because it’s not muscle memory. It’s like a dancer or musician when learning a new piece and you can see they are still counting. They have not yet made the piece their own.

That will fall under coreography deductions. It’s not bad coreography, it’s poor execution of the coreography.

Again, our kids because we have done IGC/XCel along with JO have had their own individual coreography since they have been like 6/7. They are all on their 3-4 coreography/music. I’ve watched an awful lot of growth in their choices.

I’ve also watched growth of the routines. A new routine and new skills is a lot for any brain to process. It’s impossible to work on it all at once. JMO based on watching our girls.... when they are intently focused on skills, coreography can suffer and end up rushed. As they settle in, as they do less thinking about the skills as those skills become more muscle memory, they are more able to focus on the “coreography”. The tone, the finishes.

We purposely changed music this year as she is likely to do 2 years at level 8, and even if by some miracle she gets to L9. We wanted her to settle into the coreography, leaving the focus solely on skills

 

[LJL07]

Acro IS required ... ACRO is the tumbling (RO, BHS, BLO, BT, FLO, FP, FT, Full, etc...). They are required to do acro at all optional levels. Dance is the leaps, jumps, turns, etc... There are "non-skills" that can also be part of the dance that are used as fillers and they should not really be judged (and aren't in L6-L7 and XB-XP - not sure about XDb but don't think it is judges there ... EXCEPT in the sense of "does it fit with the music?").

I’m talking about aerials for instance as Acro. Not the required tumbling passes. I was told that those typically get execution deductions and unless it’s pretty darn perfect, it’s not a good idea to put them in. This was from two judges.

 

[raenndrops]

I’m talking about aerials for instance as Acro. Not the required tumbling passes. I was told that those typically get execution deductions and unless it’s pretty darn perfect, it’s not a good idea to put them in. This was from two judges.

Every "gymnastics" move, whether required or not, will be judged based on gymnastics standards. That is why our girls do things like the macarena or cheerleader moves or "the worm" as filler. Filler should either be perfect OR something that can't be seen as a gymnastics skill.

 

[LJL07]

Every "gymnastics" move, whether required or not, will be judged based on gymnastics standards. That is why our girls do things like the macarena or cheerleader moves or "the worm" as filler. Filler should either be perfect OR something that can't be seen as a gymnastics skill.

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying. Maybe I didn’t word it well. I was just trying to make the point that not having tight choreography does make a difference.

 

[profmom]

Yes, I saw some Shushunovas this weekend that should not have been in girls' floor routines. It's a cool skill and when done well, can be a great addition, but if not done well, it's going to be deducted and it's not worth enough to make that sensible at L9 or even XCel Diamond.

You have to distinguish between dance elements that the gymnast needs to count (i.e., C or higher leaps, jumps, turns, etc.) and those that keep the routine moving. For L9 and up, non-essential/value part choreography should facilitate presentation and should be designed to minimize deductions.

LJL, has your daughter changed her tumbling passes or dance elements? Added skills? Changed the order? I've seen girls who've gone from L8 to L9 upgrade from a 1.5 to a double turn and lose tenths on every routine because they are dropping out of the turn early. Rings and sheep jumps with turns fulfill higher skill requirements, but they are often deduction magnets. What I'd recommend rather than fretting over how much is artistry deductions relating to the choreography, deductions on tumbling and acro skills, and deductions on dance, you ask if a few of our coaches/judges on here can take a look at videos of her routine last year and this year and let you know what they see. Not very many parents posting here have experience watching a lot of L9 and up routines.

 

[profmom]

Yes, I saw some Shushunovas this weekend that should not have been in girls' floor routines. It's a cool skill and when done well, can be a great addition, but if not done well, it's going to be deducted and it's not worth enough to make that sensible at L9 or even XCel Diamond.

You have to distinguish between dance elements that the gymnast needs to count (i.e., C or higher leaps, jumps, turns, etc.) and those that keep the routine moving. For L9 and up, non-essential/value part choreography should facilitate presentation and should be designed to minimize deductions.

LJL, has your daughter changed her tumbling passes or dance elements? Added skills? Changed the order? I've seen girls who've gone from L8 to L9 upgrade from a 1.5 to a double turn and lose tenths on every routine because they are dropping out of the turn early. Rings and sheep jumps with turns fulfill higher skill requirements, but they are often deduction magnets. What I'd recommend rather than fretting over how much is artistry deductions relating to the choreography, deductions on tumbling and acro skills, and deductions on dance, you ask if a few of our coaches/judges on here can take a look at videos of her routine last year and this year and let you know what they see. Not very many parents posting here have experience watching a lot of L9 and up routines.

Oops, sorry, meant to direct to StillHoping!

 

[3rd_time_around]

I’m talking about aerials for instance as Acro. Not the required tumbling passes. I was told that those typically get execution deductions and unless it’s pretty darn perfect, it’s not a good idea to put them in. This was from two judges.

I'm still fuzzy about how you're using acro and aerial in your examples. Aerials are acro. Choreography and dance will be judged, all of it is judged. All acro is judged. An aerial is an A skill, and can be used to fulfill a needed value part. It often can't be used for a special requirement, but it's still an A and gets counted. No one considers aerials to be anything but acro.

 

[LJL07]

I'm still fuzzy about how you're using acro and aerial in your examples. Aerials are acro. Choreography and dance will be judged, all of it is judged. All acro is judged. An aerial is an A skill, and can be used to fulfill a needed value part. It often can't be used for a special requirement, but it's still an A and gets counted. No one considers aerials to be anything but acro.

I think profmom above explained what I meant much better than I did. Nonessential acro such as the aerial in my daughter’s routine is not helping her score. It is more prone to getting a deduction like the Shushunovas she mentions.

 

[tomtnt]

My daughter won floor at jo nationals last year. Over summer, she got new music/choreography - more serious/older. After intrasquad with lower than expected scores, coach (who is also a high level floor judge) came to the conclusion that the music and choreography wasn’t working and switched her back to old music/choreography. Exact same skill as Switched back to old music and now scoring 9.6-9.7 again...

But now we are stuck trying to find “appropriate” new musics.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I think profmom above explained what I meant much better than I did. Nonessential acro such as the aerial in my daughter’s routine is not helping her score. It is more prone to getting a deduction like the Shushunovas she mentions.

Yes because of execution not bad coreography.

 

[twinmomma]

Musicality is important in this sport. Just like ice skating. Just like dance competitions. If you don't want to be judged on choreography/musicality, pick a different sport. Sorry. It irks me to no end that a gymnast will come out and do some random dance moves that do nothing to music that's clearly just background noise.

Someone said subjectivity should have no place in judging - and I'd argue that it's not judges being subjective. I can HATE a piece of music and not even like the choreography much - but if the choreography is performed well and enhances or at the very least GOES WITH the music, then I can appreciate that and judge accordingly.

As a former colorguard judge, I know that the guards often have little control over their music as the band director is generally in charge of that. But the choreography and execution should all be there to highlight the music and the skills.