WAG COACHES: Pre-team Requirements

[MILgymFAM]

Since you have the girls for 4.5-6 hrs a week, I would think focus and desire on the kids part would be enough to teach them L3 skills from scratch in a year. My DD went from her first 1 hr rec class almost a year ago (next week) to competing xcel bronze in January, now competing xcel gold, and training for L5. A year is a LONG time for a kid with drive and good coaching.

ETA that when my daughter started she couldn't even do a cartwheel. Seriously, not a single gymnastics skill- she is super tall and awkward too (coach even said so in his speech when she won gymnast of the year, lol). Less than a year later she has kips, bwo and cartwheel on beam, robhsbhs and front tucks on floor.. Most kids are physically coachable. I would only be worried if they aren't mentally coachable or their parents want it, not them.

 

[purpleleomom]

This is kind of eye opening. When my daughter joined preteam it was in a new gym. I had her evaluated to see where they would place her and mentioned she was interested in competing someday. Now she's still hanging around in preteam not getting any better, and I wonder if they put her in just because I asked. She had all of the skills mentioned in the original post but hasn't picked up any new skills in 4 months at the new gym and looks sloppier than when she started.

 

[CoachMeg]

Since you have the girls for 4.5-6 hrs a week, I would think focus and desire on the kids part would be enough to teach them L3 skills from scratch in a year. My DD went from her first 1 hr rec class almost a year ago (next week) to competing xcel bronze in January, now competing xcel gold, and training for L5. A year is a LONG time for a kid with drive and good coaching.

We follow the JO Program, we do not have an Excel Program nor am I very familiar with it. Yes I'm aware girls can come a long way in a year. I guess I should have been more specific, we'll be moving all those girls up to level 3 in 6 months and then they will be COMPETING by the 12 month mark.

Here's a rough idea of what our practices look like:
Jr. Pre-Team:
4:00-4:20 ----> stretch
4:20-4:40 ----> condition
4:40-5:05 ----> event 1
5:05-5:25 ----> event 2
5:25-5:30 ----> stretch

Regular Pre-Team
5:30-6:00 ----> stretch
6:00-6:35 ----> event 1
6:40-7:15 ----> event 2
7:15-7:30 ----> condition

As you can see, they only hit 2 events per practice, 3 days a week. So they may only hit floor or bars once a week, depending on the schedule. While theoretically a year of practice seems like a lot and they should be miles from where they started, doing an event 35 minutes a week is not sufficient enough unless they have SOME pre-existing skills.

There are A LOT of steps in between a bridge and a roundoff back-hanspring...and even more if they can't do a decent handstand or a cartwheel.

 

[z2akids]

There are a lot of steps, but as I said my DD starts in the rec team at 4 hours a week. She competed L2 (with very little uptraining) after 3 months on the rec team. 6 months after starting, she was moved to the L3 usag team. At that point she had never attempted a ROBHS and she competed L3 6 months later (so barely more than a year after her first gym class). It was a huge progression for her, but absolutely doable.

Now, not every child will progress as quickly add she did and many will progress a lot more quickly. There should be done standards for who makes preteam, but I wonder if potential - strength, flexibility, drive aren't more important than the skills they start with?

 

[kandkfunk]

I may have missed this in an earlier comment, but how many girls are in each group and are you the only coach?

 

[CoachMeg]

I may have missed this in an earlier comment, but how many girls are in each group and are you the only coach?

There are 7 Jr. Pre-team girls & 16 Regular Pre-team girls.

I coach the Jr. Pre-Team girls (ages 5-6) alone.

& I am assisted by one other coach for the regular group (ages 7-10 mostly, with three advanced 6 yr olds and one 11 yr old). For that group we usually split the girls up into 2 groups of 8 by age...all 6-8 yr olds in one group and all 9-10 yr olds in one group with one 11 yr old. The other coach works with them on vault and bars only while I focus on beam and floor. I have found that the older group of girls struggle more than the younger group yet I work the same skills with them. I have 6/7 yr olds who are kicking up and doing near vertical handstands on high beam and then 10 yr olds who won't even attempt a handstand by themselves on a low beam (about 2 feet off ground).

 

[pt coach]

We have an evaluation once a year and place kids based on that. We invite kids from the rec program for one time slot, and then have a separate time for kids already on preteam to be evaluated. The kids are tested on skills on each event plus flexibility and strength. We add up their scores and rank them in order to determine placement, making some adjustments for age. We start competing at L3. We don't have just one preteam group. We have two groups for sort of late starters that is for kids who may be strong on one event but missing other skills. (each group has 10-15 kids and 2 coaches) Many kids from this group end up making team - either JO or Xcel the next year. We have L1 (9 kids one coach), and L2 (15 kids and 2 coaches) preteam groups, and then some groups for younger kids that have cute names that I can never remember (approximately 7 kids in a group with one coach). We also treat Xcel Bronze as preteam for the Xcel program (although kids can move from there to JO). The evaluation is an all day event for the coaches.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I have to sympathize the original poster. You simply cannot pick a random child and expect she or he can learn level 3 skills in a year. Some kids never learn a back handspring or a front hip circle. Some kids are never able to do a bridge kick over, no matter how hard they train. Well maybe yes if you start to train them 20 hours a week with just those goals but not with 6 hours a week. Many parents have stories about their daughters who learned the level 3 skills in few months BUT we have to remember they are exceptions and they were most likely selected to the preteam groups BECAUSE the coaches saw it straight away that they have some talent. That's the norm. They must have had some physical talent and a body that is amenable to this sport and training.

It really isn't the norm that coaches just put ANY kid into preteam groups no matter how stiff they are. Some kids cannot even hold their body weight and do a simple han

 

[gymisforeveryone]

It really isn't the norm that coaches just put ANY kid into preteam groups no matter how stiff or how big or how weak they are. Some kids cannot even hold their body weight and do a front support or a bridge hold. Are you guys saying that this coach should be able to teach them the level 3 skills from scratch even if the starting level seems to be extremely low?

There is a huge difference between "not having a pull over quite yet" and "not being anywhere close having a pull over". So even if your daughter or any child you are talking about couldn't do a pull over when she was invited to the preteam group, I'm almost sure that with most of them the case was that the coaches were thinking "well she has a chin up and she can do a leg lift, it doesn't matter she doesn't officially have her pull over yet, I will spend 20 minutes with her on bars and she'll get it"

 

[COz]

So basically I feel like anyone that shows interest in team can be in the pre-team group as long as they're between the ages of 5-10.

Well, that's clearly not a good idea!

I'm not even kidding, just last week the HC put a 10 yr old girl into the pre-team program. She is VERY tall and has little to NO flexibility. Cannot do a solid bridge because she also has no shoulder flexibility. Bent legs in cartwheels and scared of handstands on a low beam even with spot.......and he expects me to get her to be competing level 3 in 12 months!

I guess you know where the problem is, just there's nothing that you can do about it beyond be being the bad guy. Clearly 'other' people are not going to say no to the parents of kids who 'really want it' :-(

 

[MILgymFAM]

I am sorry, but I guess this thread just pushes my buttons as a parent. Both my DDs were able to learn skills like robhs, hip circles, blah blah blah {insert lower level skill here}. Even though they weren't particularly strong, or flexible when they started training, and certainly neither had even close to the ideal body type. I strongly and firmly believe that any kid who wants it should have a shot at competition. Preteam seems like a pretty fair shot to me. The conditioning and hours are higher than rec, and with hard work they should be able to get lower level routines. I actually find it hard to believe that ANY able bodied child couldn't be trained to at least level four. Even if those kids never score incredibly well- assuming you are also forced to compete those you don't feel should get to- maybe that's enough for them, and their happiness, and maybe they will continue to get better at their own pace. If their parents are paying, and they are trying, isn't that enough?

 

[CoachMeg]

I am sorry, but I guess this thread just pushes my buttons as a parent. Both my DDs were able to learn skills like robhs and hip circles and blah blah blah. Even though they weren't particularly strong, or flexible, and certainly neither had even close to the ideal body type. I strongly and firmly believe that any kid who wants it should have a shot at competition. Preteam seems like a pretty fair shot to me. The conditioning and hours are higher than rec, and with hard work they should be able to get lower level routines. I actually find it hard to believe that ANY child couldn't be trained to at least level four.

Everyone can and should enjoy the sport of gymnastics but not everyone is meant for competitive gymnastics. By your logic, a 17 year old who has never had any sort of training, flexibility, or strength would be able to compete compulsory level routines with only 6 hours of practice per week? Not happening. Maybe if they were in pre-team for 2-3 years. But not in 6-12 months. No way.

I don't know if you have been reading any of my posts but I have stated before, in our program we do not want any child to be in pre-team for more than 1 year. By then, they should make it on team. I'm not saying that these kids CAN'T EVER be on pre-team or team, I'm saying that given their current skill ability, flexibility, and strength, they will be in pre-team longer than 1 year and I'm venting about them getting moved up too quickly and me as their coach not knowing how to approach the situation.

 

[COz]

I mostly agree with you @MILgymFAM (although all I know about level 4 is that it requires a kip). BUT your kids probably had a great attitude and "potential". Whilst I believe that everyone can learn skills, get better etc. that does require decent hours, it doesn't happen (generally) with just an hour a week say.
We have different 'streams' to cater for the kids who want to train less hours or who are thought to be 'unlikely' to cope with the more demanding streams. They get moved up if they do well and then they get more hours etc.

That being said, some kids just move differently, it's not about body type or messiness or elegance, there are some kids that I see in rec that (as a parent, not a coach) just don't look like they're heading towards a competitive direction. They and their parents are perfectly happy where they are.

I guess we don't know the kids that CoachMeg is training, but if she has kids that are truly scared of attempting (just attempting) things after being in this group, training decent hours for a reasonable length of time then you'd have to question if they really wanted to be there.

Our system is different, so I think it's far less likely for a child to get 'stuck' by the system the way your child was. They get eased into higher level streams as necessary if they are older. We don't have huge groups and start them all at the same level.

You'll notice that I only commented on the 5-6 preteam skills mentioned, because I don't agree with the list for the older kids

 

[skschlag]

what are the rec options? If preteam is 6 hours a week, I assume rec is 1.5-2? maybe 3?

One thing I thought when I first read it is that classes will not be homogenous. In my son's workout group, there are 2 kids learning giants, while others are learning release moves. very big discrepancy with one coach. in the younger group, kids are learning back handsprings and giants. Lots of discrepancy.

I do see that some of the expectations might be a little skewed. Expecting kids to all progress at the same rate is hard. Sounds like the expectation on one end (to compete quickly) and the expectation on the other (to move up) might be the problem.

At our gym, if they are expected to compete in 6 months, they are on team, not pre-team.

 

[MILgymFAM]

At 17, I don't know how long it would take, but at the ages you are referencing I do believe a year should make it possible for all of them. This was your post and your purpose was to vent, so I will remove my disagreement from it- I can see you are frustrated.

 

[LJL07]

I am sorry, but I guess this thread just pushes my buttons as a parent. Both my DDs were able to learn skills like robhs, hip circles, blah blah blah {insert lower level skill here}. Even though they weren't particularly strong, or flexible when they started training, and certainly neither had even close to the ideal body type. I strongly and firmly believe that any kid who wants it should have a shot at competition. Preteam seems like a pretty fair shot to me. The conditioning and hours are higher than rec, and with hard work they should be able to get lower level routines. I actually find it hard to believe that ANY able bodied child couldn't be trained to at least level four. Even if those kids never score incredibly well- assuming you are also forced to compete those you don't feel should get to- maybe that's enough for them, and their happiness, and maybe they will continue to get better at their own pace. If their parents are paying, and they are trying, isn't that enough?

Hmmm...I actually don't think so. I have watched girls my oldest daughter's age (she's now 11) participate in rec gym even more than one day per week for years, and competitive gymnastics just isn't happening for them ever. I think it's great that they are enjoying gymnastics and having fun, but I don't foresee any kips or front handsprings over the vaulting table in these kids' futures. That stuff is HARD, and everyone cannot do it even with lots of training.

OP, I'm not a coach, but my youngest daughter is on a junior pre-team (or hotshots), and the girls are ages 4-7. They all have pretty cartwheels, can kick up into handstands, most of them can do backbend kick overs, they all have pullovers, many do not yet have back hip circles, they all have splits. There are about 8 girls total, and they have either 2 or 3 coaches working with them at each practice which is twice per week for two hours. I think the goal is to have them compete level 2 next year. I suspect the now 4 year olds would probably do level 1 though. We move slow around here! I think you need more coaching help, and I think level 3 is unrealistic in 6 months for kids who don't have the above skills you mentioned.

 

[suebee]

Wow, I'm surprised by the speed at which they're expected to compete Level 3. My dd is now 6, and at 5 1 year ago could do all the things on both lists except for the handstand on beam that she just got this summer and I'm not sure what's monkey climb is, so I'm not sure about that. However, she is competing level 2 this year and training level 3 and is no where close to being able to compete level 3 as all the bars stuff (FHC, mill circle, and shoot through) are all ugly and not consistent or non-existent. She practiced the same hours last year as well as your jr pre team too. All the girls at dd's gym who were her level last year are also level 2 this year, although some of them have their level 3 skills better than dd. But none has them well enough to compete them.