Parents Different Practice Groups?

[cbifoja]

We have a situation that is working for one of our optional groups. One level is split into two groups and three days a week they work out together on the same days, same hours. Then each group works out on a different day: one group on Mondays, one group on Tuesdays for the same number of hours. But on that day the "a" group works harder skills that the "b" group isn't ready to hit yet.

 

[htimcj]

We sort of split the groups. In DD l7 group it seems to be "big" girls and "littles". There is a fairly large age difference in our l7 but breaks into two groups. Big girls are 13+ then the little ones are all 11. The 11 year olds are also all first year girls who have been training together for about three years now. They all have the same training schedule and get along fine with the other group. We are a smallish gym and most of the other groups don't seem to be split much. It works for us.

 

[Gymmom82773]

Our gym kind of splits even among the same level . For example , my daughter is a new level 9 and is the youngest at her gym competing 9 ( she's 11) so she is training now with a 12 yr old whose doing level 9/10 . The teenage level 9 s train differently and the coach now has formed a group called "I wanna be a level 10" with extra training hours . My daughter is part of that group even though she hasn't even competed 9 yet . It's very confusing !!

 

[iwannacoach]

Coach's greed is the answer to every problem and question. See if this does, or does not make sense.........

Generally speaking, coaches are pretty good at assessing a child's physical gifts. When it comes to mental, emotional, and personality traits, the assessment becomes less exacting, and in some cases appallingly absent. Staying on track with this thought, let's say a coach has a good sense of both sides their gymnasts. Keep that in mind for a moment.

There are many coaches that take pride in what they can do with the raw talent (both mental and physical) that walks through the door. They have a personal and professional interest in getting it right when they choose kids for a group. Add that notion to your to your keep in mind basket.

Some, but not most, of these able and proud coaches feel responsible for every child, they've invited to their team, regardless of their level of "gift". These coaches would gladly clone themselves and add whatever possible to their facility, just to make sure that nobody gets forgotten, missed, or left behind. Hold on to that idea just a moment while........

Many coaches, more than some but less than most, also feel an obligation to provide for every child while conducting a program to accommodate those with extra potential based on their cumlative gifts, and will do what it takes to preserve that opportunity for those who need one.

Bringing it all to one cohesive thought......... I hope!

How in the world can a parent, who has any measure of respect for the program they chose for their child, believe that the coach has an agenda that purposefully over looks their child. A coach can see all the physical traits exposed by a child's current skillwork, and know what they need for the next 6 to 12 months. Sure, there's the rare "breakout" of greatness, but those kids are easily noticed and moved as soon as sensible and possible.

Really...... What purpose could possibly be served by leaving a child behind. To do so would give a coach one less opportunity to show their abilities to the rest of the community. So the next question......

Why not move them all up to the top group and have them work identical hours with identical coaches. Look at it this way. Team gymnastics in a quality program is a lot like an all you can eat buffet, as opposed to dim sum. One puts everything out and allows each person to consume what they can. Those who have greater appetites get more for their money, well sort of, because what they get is a dining experience that provides them with all they'd like. So should the people with smaller appetites complain they weren't allowed to eat the same amount and enjoy as much as the other person. I'd hope not, because if they were to do so, they'd likely have an unfortunate reversal of desire. If you get what I mean......

Advocating for your child is great in areas like desire, personality, illness, and burdens place on a child that manifest outside their gymnastics experience. Asking questions to stay informed, or to know what you need to guide your child are fine also. Beyond those two areas, and assuming you chose the right program that features the type of team your child wants to be a part of, there's nothing else to do but drive, drop off, return, and pick up...... repeat as needed until your child becomes the gymnast she can be..... maybe even the gymnast she dreamed of becoming.

My sincere advice is to not question the coach, and to leave your child out of your frustration loop. If there are any questions, they should focus on the program's top to bottom capability of helping kids do gymnastics. If they do that well, then stay. If they don't do that well, find a gym that does. The last thing you should do is to create changes that benefit your child without making things better for every participant, including the coach.

 

[beamer]

iwannacoach: as usual, you get it.

Paragraph #9, that starts with "Why not move them all up to the top group"? All I can say (and picture my fist pump) is, "Yessssss."

This philosophy is shared with that of the coaches of my DD's gym. It is one of the best gyms in the state and its teams consistently win meets. Do the girls all think they are equal in talent, drive and ability because everyone is treated equally in terms of groupings?

No.

Each girl there knows who the superstars are. It's the nature of the beast. But when I see DD's head coach treating her as if she is just as important as the superstar who is going to win AA at states I see a great coach.

And it's not just a selfish impulse (my happiness for my own child being valued at her gym). This philosophy is also good for the gym -- which will head off many disgruntled, jealous CGPs at the pass and keep kids in the gym, their families paying the bills!

 

[skschlag]

YEs Beamer, I agree.

I think by "choosing" kids early nad saying you are "a" group, you are "b" group, you create a culture of division whether you want to or not. AMongst parents, gymnasts, and other teams. Teams see that you are "divided" and even know who are the "a" and who are the "b" girls.

Sheesh, on my son's team, levels 5-7 all practice together! They might split up for some events, but at any given time, on an event, say High Bar...2 kids are learning their kip, one is workin gback giants, one front giants and one is working his pirouette from front to back giants. And coach is happily coaching them all!

 

[wallinbl]

DD's old gym would group girls within a level by their work ethic and general efficiency, not necessarily by their talent. Some girls took extra time at every station, seemingly needing 1-2 minutes to work up to doing a tumbling pass or making a run at the vault, or would have to be prompted to stop chatting and take their turn. The girls that weren't chatting and were interested in getting in more turns usually rotated together, separate from those that were less efficient.

I never really had a problem with that, even though some parents didn't like it. But, much of my job is to make people and things more efficient, so it makes good sense in my mind to "unclog" and group by speed of work.

 

[Bajanswife]

Our groups are split in different ways according to what works best for the levels, ages and coaching availability that we have in our small gym.

The coaches have found that they prefer to coach the teen girls all together, even though they are usually in 3 different levels.

The pre-teens (ages 10 - 12) have been split according to a combination of level and ability. Having coached them by level for a few years, our head coach could see which ones were zooming forward quickly and which ones were taking longer to get their routines done. So this year she picked the 6 girls (including DD) she thought she could get further, faster and made them a group (and they are now in level 6). She trains them personally (except vault) because she has a specific goal in mind for them. The rest she kept together by level, which in practice is usually 2 levels training together because there are always girls who are ready to compete the next level when some of their teammates aren't. They are now in 2 groups: level 3/4 and level 4/5. They are usually coached by other coaches in the gym.

The 9 and unders are grouped by level. The boys all train together because there are so few of them!

 

[LizzieLac]

Coach's greed is the answer to every problem and question. See if this does, or does not make sense.........

Generally speaking, coaches are pretty good at assessing a child's physical gifts. When it comes to mental, emotional, and personality traits, the assessment becomes less exacting, and in some cases appallingly absent. Staying on track with this thought, let's say a coach has a good sense of both sides their gymnasts. Keep that in mind for a moment.

There are many coaches that take pride in what they can do with the raw talent (both mental and physical) that walks through the door. They have a personal and professional interest in getting it right when they choose kids for a group. Add that notion to your to your keep in mind basket.

Some, but not most, of these able and proud coaches feel responsible for every child, they've invited to their team, regardless of their level of "gift". These coaches would gladly clone themselves and add whatever possible to their facility, just to make sure that nobody gets forgotten, missed, or left behind. Hold on to that idea just a moment while........

Many coaches, more than some but less than most, also feel an obligation to provide for every child while conducting a program to accommodate those with extra potential based on their cumlative gifts, and will do what it takes to preserve that opportunity for those who need one.

Bringing it all to one cohesive thought......... I hope!

How in the world can a parent, who has any measure of respect for the program they chose for their child, believe that the coach has an agenda that purposefully over looks their child. A coach can see all the physical traits exposed by a child's current skillwork, and know what they need for the next 6 to 12 months. Sure, there's the rare "breakout" of greatness, but those kids are easily noticed and moved as soon as sensible and possible.

Really...... What purpose could possibly be served by leaving a child behind. To do so would give a coach one less opportunity to show their abilities to the rest of the community. So the next question......

Why not move them all up to the top group and have them work identical hours with identical coaches. Look at it this way. Team gymnastics in a quality program is a lot like an all you can eat buffet, as opposed to dim sum. One puts everything out and allows each person to consume what they can. Those who have greater appetites get more for their money, well sort of, because what they get is a dining experience that provides them with all they'd like. So should the people with smaller appetites complain they weren't allowed to eat the same amount and enjoy as much as the other person. I'd hope not, because if they were to do so, they'd likely have an unfortunate reversal of desire. If you get what I mean......

Advocating for your child is great in areas like desire, personality, illness, and burdens place on a child that manifest outside their gymnastics experience. Asking questions to stay informed, or to know what you need to guide your child are fine also. Beyond those two areas, and assuming you chose the right program that features the type of team your child wants to be a part of, there's nothing else to do but drive, drop off, return, and pick up...... repeat as needed until your child becomes the gymnast she can be..... maybe even the gymnast she dreamed of becoming.

My sincere advice is to not question the coach, and to leave your child out of your frustration loop. If there are any questions, they should focus on the program's top to bottom capability of helping kids do gymnastics. If they do that well, then stay. If they don't do that well, find a gym that does. The last thing you should do is to create changes that benefit your child without making things better for every participant, including the coach.

Ok. What you say makes PERFECT sense...sort of. It doesn't take into account the discussion we have had on other threads - the one where the coaches coach and assign levels to win meets and championships, not to train the athletes to their individual potential.

Also, you do not say where you stand on breaking the athletes into A or B training groups within the same level... Please comment.

 

[iwannacoach]

There are many instances where they need to be spit up. Two of those are keeping skillwork somewhat consistent within a group, and allowing kids who need to nibble longer on their progressions the time to do so.

You can't accommodate every child who's got a bhs on beam by slamming them into the same group and serving up bhsx2 series. Some will want to nibble, some will want a bigger bite, and some will choke.

Honestly, I'd love to see them all able to progress at the same pace and use the same progressions, but the possibility of that happening is akin to 10 kids finishing first and second in a 200 metre dash.

 

[CoachTodd]

Usually it would be due to having one or a few kids that are kind of between levels. You don't want to spend every practice of the next level being at the bottom of the bunch if you can get a better workout with the lower group and get that one workout a week that pushes the newer skills. This was also common when we were shor staffed on coaches.

 

[Fliptwisttumble]

The other split at our gym has to do with size. In the L8, L9, National group, there are 9 year olds and 16 year olds. How they train vault is grouped by size as opposed to level or age, so time isn't wasted switching out beat boards, etc. Thus grouping for floor is based on size as well (half the group on vault, half on floor). Bars and beam is generally by skill.

 

[Krystan]

I agree that sometimes things need to be split. And this could be based on age, skill level, potential, or even personality. Some kids (and my dd is one of them) need, as iwannacoach so eloquently put it: "to nibble longer on their progressions" versus some who are very comfortable pushing the envelope. Some are ready for more intense/longer training, and some would burnout and quit if they were forced into it. It is not just about skill level or competition level. I really respect a gym that treats each gymnast as an individual, and moves them up/down at whatever rate is appropriate for that gymnast. I am lucky to have my dd at a gym like this. Therefore, even if I'm initially unhappy with the placement of my daughter, I trust them. And usually I find they were right in the end! If your gym is successfully getting kids to the upper optional levels, and they are treating each gymnast as an individual, then just go with it.

At our gym, splitting up at practice is sometimes random, sometimes by age, sometimes by size (for certain vault drills, etc), most often by skill level, and changes over time. Practice groups are *generally* by competition level, but not strictly. In every training group there are at least a few girls competing a level lower than everyone else. And our optional girls generally all train together, but split up by training level (not comp level) for rotations. I think they are moving closer and closer to having training groups that are not tied to comp level, but to skill/potential/seriousness level.

And totally agree that it's parents that are most bothered by the labels than the kids. The kids are there every day and *know* who the superstars are. They know who is doing really well, who is having a rough year, who's got a mental block, and who is shirking conditioning. The labels don't seem to bother them, especially if it's just "A" and "B", or some kids stay later than others. I'm not sure I like the label, mentioned by another, the "I-want-to-get-to-level-10" training group. I bet there's lots of kids that want to get to level 10, so please don't call a specific group that!

 

[Jen H.]

There are many instances where they need to be spit up. Two of those are keeping skillwork somewhat consistent within a group, and allowing kids who need to nibble longer on their progressions the time to do so.

You can't accommodate every child who's got a bhs on beam by slamming them into the same group and serving up bhsx2 series. Some will want to nibble, some will want a bigger bite, and some will choke.

Honestly, I'd love to see them all able to progress at the same pace and use the same progressions, but the possibility of that happening is akin to 10 kids finishing first and second in a 200 metre dash.

Ok, this post and your previous post were exactly what I needed to read last night and today.
Being the uneducated, insanely proud, unobjective, loving parent that I am, I found myself getting all worked up watching my girl in the gym yesterday. Their (level6) group was split into two groups while working vault. There was definitely an *A* group and a *B* group. It sucks when your kid is often in the *B* group. Your post gave me a whole new perspective. My girl isn't any less than the girls in the *A* group, she is just paced differently. She will nibble, and bite, and nibble, digest, vomit a little in her mouth, then digest some more...
She is typically one of the last to get new skills, but when she does her form is good, and she is confident. She can definitely hold her own during competition, and loves what she is doing.

From my perch up in the observation area, it seemed as if my girl was getting coached less- but come to find out that her coach had been very happy with her vaults yesterday and had complimented her progress. And she was proud of herself! By creating drama in my mind, I had totally diminished what she has accomplished in this last year! Thank goodness I didn't t convey this to her, and managed to gather my wits and come to my senses- I get teary-eyed thinking of how wrecked she would be if she had known my thoughts!

The point is, she is right where she needs to be, and *I* have to stop comparing her to other girls, she has her strengths, but when I compare her to others, it is taking away her accomplishments. I trust the program, I trust her coaches, and need to stay the heck out of their business. My job is to support her, drive her to and fro, feed her well, and of course pay!

Thank you oh wise one! I needed that little wrist slap!

 

[iwannacoach]

..........she is right where she needs to be, and *I* have to stop comparing her to other girls, she has her strengths, but when I compare her to others, it is taking away her accomplishments. I trust the program, I trust her coaches, and need to stay the heck out of their business. My job is to support her, drive her to and fro, feed her well, and of course pay!

Thank you oh wise one! I needed that little wrist slap!

Let me know if...excuse me, when you need another one.

 

[Jen H.]

Ha! When. Definitely.

 

[luvmygymdtr]

I think I'll make a poster and hang it in the house:

drive, drop off, return, and pick up...... repeat

love it!

 

[Sixmonkeyjungle]

Our gym has gone back and forth. Preteam was by skill and that seemed appropriate. The large JO teams are split by age, not ability.

I do think offering extra practice is a bigger issue. I have seen first hand how an extra practice a week has turned mediocre athletes into real contenders. It may make the difference for some girls between A team and B team.

Overall I am in favor of groups by age, not skill. Some girls can benefit from the leadership that being at the top of the group skill wise affords. And it's easy enough to individually alter workouts to challenge everyone. Likewise so athletes will rise to the level of the expectation. I've seen too many gymnasts who seemed mediocre because that's how the coach sees them and not because they really were (see comment above about extra practices. )

 

[gymmomtoo]

Reading this thread now makes me remember that I was "that parent" back when DD was a level 4 (old, obviously). They split the group for practice (20+ kids, so they had to split!) into taller and shorter. DD was shorter. Wouldn't be a problem except the taller group got to work harder skills a lot--the shorter group didn't. DD was very upset she never got to work those harder skills. I mentioned her frustration to one of her coaches and she did start letting her go in the harder group sometimes.

Now--they split the bigger groups each day at practice, but it's not a firm group--it fluctuates by the day--with each girl getting a time with the higher level group. And there isn't a time when one group gets to practice more or longer.

 

[LizzieLac]

And, remember the "group" your child is in now, may not be the same next year. Kids develop at differing rates and sometimes quickly and then slowly depending on skills they are learning, if they are growing, and any number of factors.

I have tried very hard to stick to try answer the simple question "is my DD getting the right training for her?"