MAG Difficulty vs Execution

[skschlag]

So, this came up at the meet some of our guys had yesterday, so I thought it could be a fun discussion

at the optionals....8-10, which does your team seem to emphasize? having the hardest skills and giving up some execution points, or having fewer deductions on slightly easier skills?

The philosophy on our team is 2 fold. . First, you do have to have certain skills to move up, and he does have a sv "requirement" It does have wiggle room if you are close and likely to be there by the end of the season.

However, the kids do not do skills that are not solid for meets. The coach very much believes clean wins. For example, on my son's ph routine last year, they took a .5 hit on start value and his score went up almost a full point on execution.

Thoughts? We did see gyms yesterday that definitely were the other way...throwing big skills that were borderline safe for the gymnast, and not scoring well at all. So I do see lots of differing philosophies on this.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

Our coach let's us choose ourselves. Some of my team choose difficulty over execution.

I choose the path in between. I look at what skill is the cleanest, since difficulty won't vary more than 0.3 usually. My handstand forward roll on beam is getting cleaner than my handstand. So I will put the hard one in. However on floor, my normal full turn is cleaner than my turn with leg in split. So I will but the "easy" skill in

 

[profmom]

In terms of level for optionals, my son's coach wants them to have 80% of the group requirements and routines that are not composed entirely of As and a few Bs for L9+. He pushes the guys pretty hard to get at least most of their dismounts up to level. If they don't meet these criteria, they compete JD until they get the skills they need. He will move boys over to JO mid-season.

In terms of what skills they compete, for regular meets, he lets the boys have some say, but he makes sure they understand that doing something sloppily will cost them in execution. The guys vary in how they balance between difficulty and execution. The coach is more directive for states and regionals; if a guy is close to qualifying or placing well, he will sometimes tell them to change routines to play it safer by taking out a skill that's likely to be poorly executed or result in a fall. My guy likes competing harder skills, and for the last two years, he's been paying the price in execution.

However, the coach draws a hard line on unsafe skills. Tumbling passes stay on trampoline/tumbl trak/in the pit until he determines they're ready for air floor with him spotting, and then they must be done successfully on air floor/mats before he allows them to go just on the floor. With dismounts, he's pretty conservative about letting them bring things out of the pit. My guy's been doing his C rings dismount into the pit onto a mat with decent success for a little while now, but he's not yet allowed to mat it. His vault was pretty bad last year, but even though he was falling, his coach explained to me that the way he was crashing it was not putting him at risk -- if it had been, he would have been dialed back.

 

[Faith]

I think it depends on the kid.

Generally speaking, I see two types. One will chuck anything, needs the challenge of new skills, but isn't the tidiest. The other is a bit more cautious, but therefore take the time to get the drills and lead ups spot on.

DD was like this with her team mate. DD would just go for the big skill. Then it would take her 6 months to refine and clean it up. Friend would take 6 months working drills, skills and getting everything in place before she worked up the courage to go for it. But it would be clean from the start.

Same at comps. Some kids like having the difficulty and win if they hit, lose if they don't mentality. Others like having skills they know are solid and they can hit every time. I don't think either approach is wrong or right, it's what suits the child, and also the child's style- some kids look beautiful doing simple skills, others wow with power and height.

But they do need to be safe.

 

[jenjean70]

So, this came up at the meet some of our guys had yesterday, so I thought it could be a fun discussion

at the optionals....8-10, which does your team seem to emphasize? having the hardest skills and giving up some execution points, or having fewer deductions on slightly easier skills?

The philosophy on our team is 2 fold. . First, you do have to have certain skills to move up, and he does have a sv "requirement" It does have wiggle room if you are close and likely to be there by the end of the season.

However, the kids do not do skills that are not solid for meets. The coach very much believes clean wins. For example, on my son's ph routine last year, they took a .5 hit on start value and his score went up almost a full point on execution.

Thoughts? We did see gyms yesterday that definitely were the other way...throwing big skills that were borderline safe for the gymnast, and not scoring well at all. So I do see lots of differing philosophies on this.

Our gym is still working on that. It seems like this year they are going for clean, consistent vs. difficulty. My son's level 8 pommel, parallel bars and rings seem about the same as his level 7 routines except for the dismount. His floor has double the passes as last year which is part of why he fell on two passes in the mock meet but he can make them so he just needs endurance and little tweeks. DS isn't that clean no matter the difficulty so if they can push him in the difficulty department it is better for him...but his pommel is pretty clean. We'll see how pommel changes when he does level 9 with the pommels on...

 

[skschlag]

D had been under both philosophies. In practice, he is doing skills that will not be competed for at least a year. But when he was with the Chuck it philosophy, I always worried about injuries, and he had several due to that. Now, I guess I am more on the difficult and clean/safe, and not just difficult. That had really helped his gymnastics. But it is interesting to see others.

I guess I just hate seeing kids landing on their heads, or doing knee/ankle busters on the name of difficulty. Especially when they are not needed. It was down right scary...

 

[profmom]

Yes, for sure. I don't mind seeing kids do big skills and take deductions, but when they are landing floor passes short and underrotating their vaults, it's really worrisome. Those ankles and knees just are not going to hold up in the long run. I've also seen a few really scary high bar dismounts at L9 and L10.

For L8, vault was the main offender in the "OMG he's going to die!" category. For L9, floor was equally scary, if not scarier. And yes, there's no need. Why compete a C if you're risking a fall and potentially a serious injury when you can stick the B with no deductions?

My son's currently working skills in the gym that he's anticipating will make it into his routines MAYBE toward the end of the 2018-19 season if all goes well.

Oh, JenJean, just so you know? Level 9 pommel horse, particularly for the 13 year old crew, is a gigantic dumpster fire. The last man standing wins.

 

[John]

I think it depends on the kid.

Generally speaking, I see two types. One will chuck anything, needs the challenge of new skills, but isn't the tidiest. The other is a bit more cautious, but therefore take the time to get the drills and lead ups spot on.

DD was like this with her team mate. DD would just go for the big skill. Then it would take her 6 months to refine and clean it up. Friend would take 6 months working drills, skills and getting everything in place before she worked up the courage to go for it. But it would be clean from the start.

Same at comps. Some kids like having the difficulty and win if they hit, lose if they don't mentality. Others like having skills they know are solid and they can hit every time. I don't think either approach is wrong or right, it's what suits the child, and also the child's style- some kids look beautiful doing simple skills, others wow with power and height.

But they do need to be safe.

I think I totally agree with this. My DD loves new skills, the bigger the more she smiles. I hope she learns to work on the details.

 

[skschlag]

I think I totally agree with this. My DD loves new skills, the bigger the more she smiles. I hope she learns to work on the details.

Oh, so does my DS! he loves learning new skills. But he does not get to compete them until they are safe and clean in a routine. We saw boys yesterday fallign in dangerous ways, so that was my question. DS loves doing the big skills! But he also knows what is actually ready for competition versus what is too risky.

I can see arguments both ways, but I think some of the ones yesterday crossed into dangerous, and the potential for injury very high.

 

[profmom]

We saw a great example of the distinction last year. I'm idly watching some kid in a different flight warm up on pbars -- this is L9, mind you -- and he throws a Bhavsar and makes it. In case you don't know the skill, it's like this:



So after I picked my jaw up off my lap, I made a point of watching his routine, and he missed it in the routine. It wasn't a dangerous miss, and he was obviously not at any risk of injury. (He did a moy to support in the same routine that would have brought most judges to tears for the beauty.) But after he dismounted, he just shrugged his shoulders at his coach and smiled. He ended up placing very high in JE at nationals.

Contrast that with a few vaults I saw where kids were just not blocking all that well and attempting either hand fronts or twisting tsuks. Some of the hand fronts were very close to the kid's not landing feet first, and at least one got a great deal of benefit of the doubt not to be zeroed out. The tsuks were terrifying -- we saw a few face plants and landings where the kid landed in such a deep squat that his shins looked like they were impacting on his feet. As I mentioned, my kid is not a great vaulter. He worked a hand front all summer and could certainly land a butt bounce at this point. I've seen him do it onto a soft mat. But he is not allowed to compete a butt bounce, so a simple tucked tsuk it will be until he's strong enough to block better and land these things with his chest up.

It's particularly crazy to see the dangerous stuff this early in the season. Why, why, why? A badly broken or dislocated ankle could be the end of any hopes of a good season at this point, and we're only just getting started. Bad stuff that's taking deductions but isn't dangerous? Fine, go on, throw it all including the kitchen sink as long as you can smile at your plate full of 11s or 10s with multiple falls. But don't kill yourselves, guys!

 

[John]

DD does not get to decide what she will Compete. She just smiles when he sends her to rod floor to tumble. He asks her for skills he wants to see, skills she has been working, and she attempts them with a smile from ear to ear. He has sent her vaulting with the 8 9 and 10's that made her month.

I like to watch the boys, so impressive.

 

[sce]

I guess I just hate seeing kids landing on their heads, or doing knee/ankle busters on the name of difficulty. Especially when they are not needed. It was down right scary...

I agree. deductions on not totally clean skills is one thing, but risking injury is not okay. I mean things happen and kids can mess up a skill they have but I don't think they should throw iffy skills. E's current coach will not have them compete skills they can't make regularly in a routine in practice. They can continue working some skills to maybe add in alter but routines should be able to be done clean. This means start values could be lower but falls are worse for scores. At his last, gym they worked for skills to be safe, but falls in meets still happened. I was really glad that they did not start flipping their vaults until they were really ready. I keep hearing how awful it can be to watch some new tsuks, but E's was pretty solid all season.

 

[jenjean70]

Yes, for sure. I don't mind seeing kids do big skills and take deductions, but when they are landing floor passes short and underrotating their vaults, it's really worrisome. Those ankles and knees just are not going to hold up in the long run. I've also seen a few really scary high bar dismounts at L9 and L10.

For L8, vault was the main offender in the "OMG he's going to die!" category. For L9, floor was equally scary, if not scarier. And yes, there's no need. Why compete a C if you're risking a fall and potentially a serious injury when you can stick the B with no deductions?

My son's currently working skills in the gym that he's anticipating will make it into his routines MAYBE toward the end of the 2018-19 season if all goes well.

Oh, JenJean, just so you know? Level 9 pommel horse, particularly for the 13 year old crew, is a gigantic dumpster fire. The last man standing wins.

Yeah...It'll be just like old times when he was just learning to circle. He's finally gotten good and next year it's going to a brand new and painful ballgame!

 

[jenjean70]

We saw a great example of the distinction last year. I'm idly watching some kid in a different flight warm up on pbars -- this is L9, mind you -- and he throws a Bhavsar and makes it. In case you don't know the skill, it's like this:



So after I picked my jaw up off my lap, I made a point of watching his routine, and he missed it in the routine. It wasn't a dangerous miss, and he was obviously not at any risk of injury. (He did a moy to support in the same routine that would have brought most judges to tears for the beauty.) But after he dismounted, he just shrugged his shoulders at his coach and smiled. He ended up placing very high in JE at nationals.

Contrast that with a few vaults I saw where kids were just not blocking all that well and attempting either hand fronts or twisting tsuks. Some of the hand fronts were very close to the kid's not landing feet first, and at least one got a great deal of benefit of the doubt not to be zeroed out. The tsuks were terrifying -- we saw a few face plants and landings where the kid landed in such a deep squat that his shins looked like they were impacting on his feet. As I mentioned, my kid is not a great vaulter. He worked a hand front all summer and could certainly land a butt bounce at this point. I've seen him do it onto a soft mat. But he is not allowed to compete a butt bounce, so a simple tucked tsuk it will be until he's strong enough to block better and land these things with his chest up.

It's particularly crazy to see the dangerous stuff this early in the season. Why, why, why? A badly broken or dislocated ankle could be the end of any hopes of a good season at this point, and we're only just getting started. Bad stuff that's taking deductions but isn't dangerous? Fine, go on, throw it all including the kitchen sink as long as you can smile at your plate full of 11s or 10s with multiple falls. But don't kill yourselves, guys!

Mine is throwing a kas vault....I guess he's pretty consistent (I have only seen him vault once in practice) but he didn't make it to his feet in the mock meet. His floor warm up was exquisite but when he put it all together in his routine he got winded and fell on two of his six tumbling passes. I think his most difficult routine is floor so once he gets his endurance up he should be fine. We'll see anyway- optionals is a brand new ballgame!

 

[jenjean70]

DD does not get to decide what she will Compete. She just smiles when he sends her to rod floor to tumble. He asks her for skills he wants to see, skills she has been working, and she attempts them with a smile from ear to ear. He has sent her vaulting with the 8 9 and 10's that made her month.

I like to watch the boys, so impressive.

Our boys get input on what they would like to compete. We have one boy who decided he wanted to do a one armed giant in his high bar routine because he doesn't have an endo or a stalder. He has been so motivated because he can help craft routines that avoid his nemesis- the press handstand. My son doesn't have too much of a say because he likes the coaches to come up with his routines.

 

[skschlag]

Optionals is fun!

It does sound like your gym does favor some difficulty over cleanliness, just in reading your posts. Very few kas vaults at L8. Most boys just don't have the block off the vault to be consistent with that vault. What are his 6 tumbling passes? It is great that he is learning these difficult skills young, and without fears! but most L10s are doing Kas vaults (or Kas twisting vaults).

It will be interesting how the Jr FIG rules will affect routine construction. I know D and his coach are going over his floor routine now...

I hope he can pull it all together and stay healthy. Tough thing to do in this sport

(does the one armed giant meet the same group as endo/stalder? I have no idea as D's coach stopped him from training them for now)

 

[raenndrops]

Not MAG, but our coach is one that prefers clean over difficult... however, if it is close and the difference between meeting a Special Requirement or not is trying the difficult skill (difficult is subjective... for example, in Xcel Gold, one girl has her front tuck on floor 70% of the time. If she doesnt do it, she is missing a SR as she has nothing else she can do for it. She lands feet first 95% of the time before falling, so it is in her routine), then we go for the difficult skill if it is "close enough."

However, we have a L8 that normally vaults a front handspring (9.0 SV). If she scores "high enough" on it, HC lets her attempt her 1/2 on-1/1 off... which she has rarely landed cleanly. Well, Saturday, she scored an 8.6 on the handspring, so HC said she could do WHATEVER she wanted to for the 2nd one. She tried the other vault... actually managed a 1/2 on-2/3 off and took 3 steps, lol. She was 1st on vault with an 8.6, competing against tsuks and 1/2-1/2 and 1/2-1/1 ... she was happy.

 

[profmom]

Six passes is quite a lot for a L8 floor routine, especially with the new time limit. He must have to really hurry to get all of that in!

Our L10s have all been eliminating passes from their routines. Especially with the way the rules work with counting group requirements, there is no reason to have additional skills in a routine that are higher value than the lowest value corner move (which is usually the lowest group requirement for most guys).

One-arm giant is not the same box as endo/stalder -- those are in-bars. One-arm giant is the same group as regular giants, just a B rather than an A. Rarely seen in our region prior to late L10 because of the risk of peeling.

 

[jenjean70]

Optionals is fun!

It does sound like your gym does favor some difficulty over cleanliness, just in reading your posts. Very few kas vaults at L8. Most boys just don't have the block off the vault to be consistent with that vault. What are his 6 tumbling passes? It is great that he is learning these difficult skills young, and without fears! but most L10s are doing Kas vaults (or Kas twisting vaults).

It will be interesting how the Jr FIG rules will affect routine construction. I know D and his coach are going over his floor routine now...

I hope he can pull it all together and stay healthy. Tough thing to do in this sport

(does the one armed giant meet the same group as endo/stalder? I have no idea as D's coach stopped him from training them for now)

Thank you. So far so good- knock on wood!
As far as his floor routine the floor passes are - mount with a double back, one and a half punch front- floor work- side pass is a punch lay (it's still ugly) then a whip half punch barani (he keeps throwing his chest down on the connected skill out of the whip), then a double full (he hasn't figured out how to breathe in between passes yet) and dismounts with a layout. At the mock meet he landed all of those skills beautifully in warm up but when it came time to compete fell on the connected skill with the whip and then the double full (he looked at the video and said he didn't set). They scored him a 10.7 out of a possible 13.9.
As for the boy with the one arm giants- He is 13 and has come a LONG way since last year. He fought for the one armed giant (even though he just lifts his hand off the bar) because he wanted to do it. He has found other skills on the internet that he has wanted to try and the coaches have let him try as long as he is safe because it makes him happy and he works harder.
This year is the first year we will have a level 10 gymnast (even though he can't do what some of the 8s and 9s can do). He is 15 and can do a lot more than our boy who was going to be JD and his mom would have thrown a fit if they made him go JD so they are letting him go 10. Last year was the first time we had any level 9s (we had 3 and one won vault at JE nationals) and the year before that was the first time we had any level 8s so our coaches don't have personal experience to go on. They talk to all coaches and judges to learn so they can make their own plan for the gym.

 

[jenjean70]

Six passes is quite a lot for a L8 floor routine, especially with the new time limit. He must have to really hurry to get all of that in!

Our L10s have all been eliminating passes from their routines. Especially with the way the rules work with counting group requirements, there is no reason to have additional skills in a routine that are higher value than the lowest value corner move (which is usually the lowest group requirement for most guys).

One-arm giant is not the same box as endo/stalder -- those are in-bars. One-arm giant is the same group as regular giants, just a B rather than an A. Rarely seen in our region prior to late L10 because of the risk of peeling.

Oh....I didn't know there was a time limit. No wonder it looked like he was rushing and had no time to breathe!
As far as the boy with the one armed giant- he really wanted to do it and it makes him happy and work harder so they let him go for it.