does GYMNASTICS equal POLITICS?

[twisting007bigflip]

Ok. I've been going to ask about this for awhile now, but just haven't. It's something that burns my butt so bad.

The other weekend, the gym owner and I are on our way home from a meet. I spent the entire meet coaching and cheering on my kids, he spent the entire meet walking around talking to other gym owners, seems like everyone is playing politics - make me puke.

Anyway, I'm really wondering just that. I'd like some honest answers here. We're all pretty well anonymous here, right? I mean, for the most part? I just want the truth, that's it.

Generally speaking, is it true that some gyms with bigger teams get bigger scores because they bring in bigger money to the host gym...and in turn they bring in more money for USA Gymnastics?


This is the rumor flying around between several of the coaches and gym owners around here- like, it seems like everyone thinks this is common knowledge, but I don't know if I really believe that this crap happens. Because, word on the street is, if I take my group of solid level 5s (and by solid, I mean all capable of a 37+ all around, they won't ever score as well competing USAG because there are only 4 of them, as opposed to a certain team who typically brings about 10-12........so, if the entry fee is 75 dollars, I'm writing a check for $300, and the teams with 10-12 kids are writing a check for $750-$900 (just for the one session).

And are the judges really looking for different things on different days? So then, the same judge might score the same routine two different ways depending on what side of the bed they woke up on?

I'm sorry, because maybe this is all true, but I grew up in the usag system and loved it. I am having a really hard time believing that USAG and it's members are this crooked. Seriously.

 

[gymcoach34]

Not true at all!! The gym owner is just using the excuse to be LAZY (and feel self important)!! How were the people (s)he was talking to not busy coaching or judging themselves? I work my butt off at meets and have no time to do a lot of talking to others during the meet-esp at the compulsory level!

True, some judges overlook mistakes of the "big gyms" bc of their reputations, but not many- most people are in this for the kids and are fair. Money has nothing to do with it-hope this makes you feel better!

 

[gymdog]

I don't think this is generally true. Most of the bigger, well connected gyms have the best facilities and coaching staff. They have big class programs and select kids with the most potential. They train more hours. I've been to a gym like that. It's a whole different ballgame than some of the places I've worked. Some kids that are on your USAG team might be on a rec team or prep-op team at another gym. Also, it can often be self fulfilling because sometimes the most talented kids will move from smaller gyms to those gyms for the opportunity to train to a higher level.

Anyway, here I can say from the results I saw from our recent compulsory sectionals some of the biggest scorers were actually from smaller gyms. Most of the best scores were from certain teams. However I can say historically those teams tend to have kids doing the best routines.

 

[NGL780309]

I do think that some of the bigger more famous gyms do get a little gift scorewise here and there. Not always, but it does happen. One of my friends whose DD is now in college moved to one of those bigger gyms and even her mom thought her own DD was getting gifted a bit. She said she was just glad to be on the other side of it! I think it's probably unintentional. There's a certain expectation from those gyms before the girl even starts her routine.

 

[cathiann]

I don't think bigger gyms get better scores--one of the smaller groups around here scores really well--winning the level with just 3 girls! But I DO think if the gym has a good reputation, the judges will tend to score those girls higher--whether they really deserve it or not.

The judges get a flat fee for judging--regardless of how many gymnasts a certain gym brings to a meet, so I can't see where that would have any effect.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Specifically: do bigger gyms consistently score better? No, not in my experience.

Generally: is the world of gymnastics always full of politics, crazy people, and general drama? Yes, it certainly seems that way.

But I suspect there is insanity, drama, and political bs in just about anything.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Judges are only human, and they are judging a routine that can happen so fast. Gymnastics is not like basketball where the point is scored if the ball goes in the hoop, there is so much to take in and so much that can be missed.

I wouldn't think it is a bad thing that the gym owner spent a lot of time going around and chatting to other coaches, this does not mean he was playing political games. Gym owners have often known each other for many years, many grew up competing against each other as gymnasts, started coaching around a similar, opened gyms around a similar time. They will likely be good friends, meets are often one of the few chances in their busy schedules to catch up. The odds are they are just networking, which is normal in any organization.

Yes, there may be a bias towards certain clubs but it is NOT because they bring the most money to the meet. Again gymnastics is a subjective sport and there are hundreds of girls for a judge to watch every day. When they watch meet after meet they will come to see certain clubs again and again, clubs that generally do well will bring certain expectations for the judge. they may see a gymnasts from a big club and feel straight away "this should be good" and it can impair what they are seeing. It is not deliberate, it is human nature. I tell my gymnasts that it is a good thing if the judges are biassed towards other clubs. It means that those who don't have the advantage have to work harder to win, which in the end will make them better gymnasts than the ones who got an easy ride. I tell them they just need to make sure they are so good that even the most biassed judge still sees they are the best.

Judges can be looking for different things on different days but it is generally not like that. Judges have certain deductions they can take for certain things but the size of the deduction will vary depending on how severe the problem is. A small wobble will bring a small deduction while a bigger wobble will bring a bigger deduction and it can be a bit subjective as to where the line is between a small and a large wobble. It won't matter if the judges are harsher on certain days as long as they are judging consistently on that day. In the end the right kid will still win the meet.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Well, we do have certain gyms in our area that we know if they are at a meet, they will win. So we tell our girls that if they come in second, it's just like winning. Over the years, it is sadly true that certain gyms get better scoring consistently. I mean, you can watch a compulsory routine and see the difference, yet the "gym" girl gets a higher score, even if her routine is not as good. (we're talking obvious wobbles and even falls, beating clean, good routines). Esp when gyms have judges as their coaches, or owners that are good friends with a lot of judges. It's just the way it is.

 

[gymkat]

Routines with obvious wobbles and falls can legitimately outscore routines that look clean to non-judges and coaches.

The reality is that not every gym has the same standard of what is competition ready, and some gyms that consistently get better scores consistently have better routines. Also, gyms that have judges as coaches often have a better understanding of how the rules are applied.

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

In my experience of the past 4 years I think the judges are pretty honest with the scoring. We actually had a parent state that the judges were giving our girls bad scores because they did not like our gym owner in my daughters 1st year. Our gym owner is involved with the state board. This is absurd because since then I have seen girls from our gym score high and low and inbetween. It definitly is based on the performance of a gymnast. What I have seen is some of the big gyms score well but they hold there girls back in the levels.

 

[gymbaby12]

I guess it kind of depends on the area. i do YMCA/USAG and I don't think bigger gyms get better scores. BUT some judges look for different things. Some judges want to see very good form.Others want to see good technique. i guess it depends though...

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I guess it kind of depends on the area. i do YMCA/USAG and I don't think bigger gyms get better scores. BUT some judges look for different things. Some judges want to see very good form.Others want to see good technique. i guess it depends though...

In theory, what the judges want to see shouldn't make any difference. The code is very specific; you get deducted this amount for this mistake, you're required to have these skills, this skill is worth exactly this much, etc. There should not be any deduction for doing something the judge "doesn't like" unless the code says there's a deduction for it.

Of course, "shouldn't be" doesn't always equate to "isn't."

 

[3rd_time_around]

In my experience of the past 4 years I think the judges are pretty honest with the scoring. We actually had a parent state that the judges were giving our girls bad scores because they did not like our gym owner in my daughters 1st year. Our gym owner is involved with the state board. This is absurd because since then I have seen girls from our gym score high and low and inbetween. It definitly is based on the performance of a gymnast. What I have seen is some of the big gyms score well but they hold there girls back in the levels.

So true. I forgot about that, and yes, the place I'm alluding to does do that as well.

 

[gymnut1]

Routines with obvious wobbles and falls can legitimately outscore routines that look clean to non-judges and coaches.

The reality is that not every gym has the same standard of what is competition ready, and some gyms that consistently get better scores consistently have better routines. Also, gyms that have judges as coaches often have a better understanding of how the rules are applied.

All of this is very very true.

 

[Supportive_Dad]

There's a certain expectation from those gyms before the girl even starts her routine.

Do anyone think that applies to a girls's physical appearance?

"looks like a gymnast" vs ?

 

[lavinmeg]

I agree with everyone else but I would just like to add that the big name gyms have big names because they produce good gymnast. I am NOT saying
smaller / less known gym can't produce great gymnasts as well but gyms get their big names from people hearing about the gym being good and going there. EXAMPLE:
Nastia (big name gym Woga): "Shawn why don't you come to our gym it is so much better and lots of olypians and world ranked gymnasts and coaches are there"

Shawn (small chow's gym - one olympian): "Nastia although Chow's doesn't have as many olypians it is still good."

Nastia: "well I guess both gyms are good but Woga just has made more olypians it doesn't mean chows is bad 1 olympian is pretty good"

Shawn: "yeah"

 

[Deleted member D3987]

chow's= 1 olympian

woga= 2 olympians

Mmmmmm.....

 

[twisting007bigflip]

Guess I'm getting mixed reviews from everyone on this.

I'm still getting honked off about this, though.


Though I agree that there is a certain expectation from some gyms because of their reputation, that should mean nothing.

What the judge sees and what the gymnast performs should be the same thing. Example: If the cast requirement is above horizontal, and the gymnast performs a perfect cast *at* horizontal, then the gymnast should receive the full deduction for not meeting the requirement - even if they are from WOGA, or Chows, or Texas Dreams, or Midwest Twisters, or Universal Gymnastics, or AOGC....or a small po-dunk gym out in the middle of east lincoln nowhere that no one knew existed until that very meet.

I have gotten to know some of the judges who are regulars judging the non sanctioned meets that we go to. One judge in particular that I love judges USAG level 2 - 10...(regularly judges big meets in our region)..I have never asked her this question because I don't want to offend her, but...if she's judging one of my kids on bars at an unsanctioned meet and my kid scores a 9.4, then wouldn't she still score her at a 9.4 at a sanctioned usag meet?

I just don't get the freaking difference. I mean, I know the deductions just as well as the judges do - I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't...since I know the deductions, I know when a score is crap and when it's not, and when I judge my kids' routines, I score them the same as when they are judged by someone else. It's just that I'm being told that even though my kids are good, they won't be good in usag because there's a couple of gyms in particular who will always win because they bring in the most money. And when asked "why would parents continue to sign their kids up for meets when they will just be underscored because x gym is apparently "rigged" to win?", our GO responded with "Because the parents do what the gym tells them to do"

GRRRRRR.

 

[gymkat]

Not all non-sanctioned leagues have the same rules as USAG (some do). I've judged two non-sanctioned leagues, and both were very explicit about being more lenient with deductions than USAG.

And sometimes comments just come from sour grapes. My old gym won quite a few team state titles against gyms that had 3-4x more gymnasts.

 

[gymster]

I get what you are saying However I think It maybe more intimidation than politics! I personally try to look at each gymnast as a number rather than a gym or paticilar gymnast as not to bring forth any prejudgment. I use the code of points as my guide trying to be as consistant as possible. Many of my friends are coaches and my kids are at one of those big and powerful gyms the Big W! I have even Had to be on a pannel that was judging my kid! Heres hoping that never happens again! With that said I can say for the most part at least in my region a vast majority of the judges judge the gymnast preformance not the gym,body style, or the coaches! and remember from time to time like your gymnast we make mistakes no matter how long we have been judging! We are human Not Gods! :O)