WAG Early Recruiting

[Muddlethru]

There is so much talk about college gymnastics recruiting age getting younger. Does anyone have knowledge of how this process works? Are recruits or those promised a full ride scholarship given some kind of exemption from the college's qualifications for admission? I know college coaches have a strong "pull" in admissions, but how much pull do they have? These young gymnasts have not taken the SAT or ACT, do not know or have their high school GPA's. If their scores prove to be below the college standards, are their scholarships rescinded? And in case of injury right before signing of LOI, what happens?

 

[bookworm]

There is so much talk about college gymnastics recruiting age getting younger. Does anyone have knowledge of how this process works? Are recruits or those promised a full ride scholarship given some kind of exemption from the college's qualifications for admission? I know college coaches have a strong "pull" in admissions, but how much pull do they have? These young gymnasts have not taken the SAT or ACT, do not know or have their high school GPA's. If their scores prove to be below the college standards, are their scholarships rescinded? And in case of injury right before signing of LOI, what happens?

From our experience and those we know who have been through this, no, there are no exemptions from the admission qualifications...if you don't get in there is no scholarship...all NLIs are contingent on "meeting the admission requirements of the school"..,

I don't think the coaches have as much "pull" as you'd like to think...in schools where you would need the pull, they have the stiffer admission standards....and schools like a Stanford don't notify the gymnast of admission ( or not) until December of their Sr year, so you'd better have a really good back up plan because at that point, most everything in the way of scholarships are gone....we were told that Stanford and the Ivies' absolute minimum for SATs was 1800, and a gymnast we knew met that requirement but was rejected by the school because others from her high school with higher SATs were not admitted to the school so she was out of luck there, no matter what the coach said...

And depending on the degree and type of injury , the NLI may still be signed ...if it is career ending, the gymnast may want to go somewhere else, if not, that's why PT does a brisk business with gymnasts!!

Bottom line, your gymnast has to meet the admission standards of the school she is committing to, and if she does, and gets admitted, the scholarship (under the NLI) will be fine.

 

[MeetDirector]

4thelove -

We are knee-deep in this process. As bookworm said, an athlete must be academically eligible before any athletic scholarship can come into play. Academic eligibility takes two forms: NCAA eligibility and admission eligibility for each particular school. An athlete must meet both. So, you ask yourself, what is with all of these early, early offers? They are really nothing more than a verbal promissory note, of sorts, that is subject to clearing NCAA eligibility and meeting admission eligibility at the school. College coaches have very little if any influence on the academic admission eligibility process; they can't interfere by NCAA rule. Until an actual piece of paper is signed, there really is no firm scholarship.

 

[Muddlethru]

Thank you bookworm and meetdirector.

But do you think there is a separate/different admissions qualifications required for athletes if coaches really want them on their team? The 1800 SAT is very low for Stanford or for any ivy league or top 20 university. The two students from my son's school that was accepted to Stanford had perfect scores. My son applied with a 2250 and was rejected. But I know the top woman fencer in my son's team and ranked #11 in the country was offered a scholarship at Yale during the end of her junior year. They lowered the required SAT to 1600 but after several tries she still could not get it. So she did not get in.

Now what is the NCAA eligibility based on?

 

[gymmomtoo]

NCAA looks at the high school courses the student has taken and determines if they meet NCAA standards. You can google NCAA clearinghouse to find the website and get tons of information from them on exactly what they are looking at. The student should definitely be notifying their counselor going in to freshman year that they want to compete NCAA (and this applies even if they aren't going for a scholarship for athletics) so that the advisor can try and make sure courses meet guidelines.

 

[bookworm]

Thank you bookworm and meetdirector.

1. The two students from my son's school that was accepted to Stanford had perfect scores. My son applied with a 2250 and was rejected.
2. But I know the top woman fencer in my son's team and ranked #11 in the country was offered a scholarship at Yale during the end of her junior year. They lowered the required SAT to 1600 but after several tries she still could not get it. So she did not get in.
Now what is the NCAA eligibility based on?

Point 1: was like I cited above in the gymnast that didn't get in because kids in her high school with higher SATs didn't get in...if your daughter had applied to Stanford this same year as your son and had SATs of say 2200 (which are good) she wouldn't have gotten in because they rejected your son with higher SATs from the same school, athletic prowess aside...

Point 2: She never got the minimum of the 1600, so at Yale, she wasn't eligible for admission but other than the Ivies and Stanford , she was probably NCAA eligible and her SATs were probably ok...I'm sure the Yale coach desperately wanted the #11 fencer in the country but she couldn't get into the school academically so the offer is null and void.....any offer is always contingent on admission.

With the NCAA clearinghouse , the higher your GPA , the lower the SAT required for them ....so in my girls' case, their GPAs are high so they only require a 400 (for NCAA clearinghouse standards) on the SAT for admission...the school can set its own standards though

 

[MeetDirector]

4thelove and others -

I highly advise anyone 2-3 years out from the college process to start doing your homework. If your dd is serious about trying to get a college scholarship, you owe it to her to understand the process. You also need to start researching colleges to see what the specific academic entry requirements are as well as what the different school's financial aid/scholarship policies are. For example, in your post above you mention a fencer being offered a scholarship to Yale (I assume you mean an athletic scholarship). Well, that is wrong; Yale (and the rest of the Ivy's) do not offer scholarships based on athletic ability, nor do they offer scholarships based on academic merit. The Ivy's offer ONLY need-based financial aid. You have to do your research as it can definitely help to focus your efforts on the right (or wrong) schools to be pursuing.

Good Luck.

 

[bookworm]

Meet Director..true about the Ivies...no athletic money (per se) but we know a few of the girls' friends who have "committed" to Ivies...that being said, I think the commitment is to be on the gymnastics team pending their admission to school...and that has happened (they've been admitted and gone on to compete) ...one friend got money ( "need based") and a few others didn't but all felt being a recruited athlete helped their standing in being admitted to the schools ...altho all had the credentials to get in ( SATs 2200-2300 and GPA in the 4.0 range with tons of activities...)

 

[gasrgoose]

4thelove and others -

I highly advise anyone 2-3 years out from the college process to start doing your homework. If your dd is serious about trying to get a college scholarship, you owe it to her to understand the process. You also need to start researching colleges to see what the specific academic entry requirements are as well as what the different school's financial aid/scholarship policies are. For example, in your post above you mention a fencer being offered a scholarship to Yale (I assume you mean an athletic scholarship). Well, that is wrong; Yale (and the rest of the Ivy's) do not offer scholarships based on athletic ability, nor do they offer scholarships based on academic merit. The Ivy's offer ONLY need-based financial aid. You have to do your research as it can definitely help to focus your efforts on the right (or wrong) schools to be pursuing.

Good Luck.

Great advice. Many people confuse being offered a spot on a team with being offered a scholarship. They assume everyone in college athletics is on a scholarship. But the key is to research.

As for the early recruiting as others have stated there is not a guarantee of a scholarship until you've signed the LOI, cleared the NCAA and cleared the schools admission office. However schools can and do make exceptions for athletes (and others) from their typical admission requirements (even Stanford).

 

[Tbrov]

Is anyone interested in a College Recruiting social group? We could help each other with the process as well as share our own personal impressions of different colleges (pluses and minuses). Or does something like this already exist on the boards?

I know I could use some help and insight from those further along in the process, and maybe have something to offer those just beginning.

 

[LMV]

4thelove and others -

I highly advise anyone 2-3 years out from the college process to start doing your homework. If your dd is serious about trying to get a college scholarship, you owe it to her to understand the process. You also need to start researching colleges to see what the specific academic entry requirements are as well as what the different school's financial aid/scholarship policies are. For example, in your post above you mention a fencer being offered a scholarship to Yale (I assume you mean an athletic scholarship). Well, that is wrong; Yale (and the rest of the Ivy's) do not offer scholarships based on athletic ability, nor do they offer scholarships based on academic merit. The Ivy's offer ONLY need-based financial aid. You have to do your research as it can definitely help to focus your efforts on the right (or wrong) schools to be pursuing.

Good Luck.

You are completely correct that with the Ivy league schools there is no merit money [for athletics, or academics, or any combination of the above]. Everything is need based so if the student is accepted then the school will meet their needs [or at least what the institution deems their needs] so they can attend. These schools as a group have significant endowments and may actually end up being much cheaper than a state school in the long run for middle class/upper middle families. Stanford is similar in that they also do not extend academic merit money. In contrast to the Ivys, they do offer athletic merit money.

If you are looking at Ivy admission for athletes then you should get familiar with their academic index [essentially a composite of SAT/ACT, gpa, with some additional points for SAT IIs if they are good]. The conference sets a floor for athletes and those falling below the floor are not eligible to be recruited/admitted. Beyond that the schools require the teams to have average AIs within a standard deviation of the AIs of all students. They can't admit below the floor threshold but they also can't admit a class full of those hovering right above that floor, so the coaches are in a bit of a balancing act with athletic prowess and academics.

 

[Muddlethru]

4thelove and others -

I highly advise anyone 2-3 years out from the college process to start doing your homework. If your dd is serious about trying to get a college scholarship, you owe it to her to understand the process. You also need to start researching colleges to see what the specific academic entry requirements are as well as what the different school's financial aid/scholarship policies are. For example, in your post above you mention a fencer being offered a scholarship to Yale (I assume you mean an athletic scholarship). Well, that is wrong; Yale (and the rest of the Ivy's) do not offer scholarships based on athletic ability, nor do they offer scholarships based on academic merit. The Ivy's offer ONLY need-based financial aid. You have to do your research as it can definitely help to focus your efforts on the right (or wrong) schools to be pursuing.

Good Luck.

I do know Ivy Leagues do not offer scholarships. My husband went to one as an athletic recruit and we have researched this when my son was looking at colleges. I guess I was not thinking when I wrote the post. Anyway I texted my son as I was certain now I may have recalled the details incorrectly. Sure enough, I did. I think I mixed up two situations. Anyway, the school was Notre Dame and the score was 1600. The Yale recruit was a different story.

But I am a little confused, bookworm states

"...the gymnast that didn't get in because kids in her high school with higher SATs didn't get in...if your daughter had applied to Stanford this same year as your son and had SATs of say 2200 (which are good) she wouldn't have gotten in because they rejected your son with higher SATs from the same school, athletic prowess aside..."

LMV states:

"The conference sets a floor for athletes and those falling below the floor are not eligible to be recruited/admitted. Beyond that the schools require the teams to have average AIs within a standard deviation of the AIs of all students. They can't admit below the floor threshold but they also can't admit a class full of those hovering right above that floor, so the coaches are in a bit of a balancing act with athletic prowess and academics."

If I understand it correctly bookworm is stating a athletic recruit must meet all the standards/requirements of any other student going to that school, which in my experience may be true. My son had a decent SAT and his GPA was a hair short of 100%. The two kids that got in had 2400 SAT and a GPA of 104%. Neither was going to play sports but had other impressive things in their resume (which I know Stanford likes). My son was going to play sports (though he is not a blue chip) and the HC couldn't offer him anything except he offered to submit a letter to admissions indicating he was interested in having my son play for his team should he get it. (at least he told us he did send the letter).

On the hand, LMV is stating the conference has a FLOOR FOR ATHLETES. So is this floor different from regular admissions? It appears from the aspiring Notre Dame fencer, she was given an accommodation. I am hard pressed to believe Notre Dame would accept non athletes with a 1600 SAT. So, it appears LMV's post makes sense. And then again, the HC clearly told my son "if you get in" he wanted him on his team.

I am probably all over the place in my thoughts. We are not looking into Ivies for my gymnast. We are just looking everywhere. For regular colleges, do you think they make accommodations on admissions for their scholarship athletes? If a scholarship is not being offered then all the rules of admission applies?

For those who received verbal commitments, how many do you know where rescinded for whatever reason?

 

[Gymprincess]

The majority of my teammates who have gone to college on athletic scholarship did not make what would be considered competitive SAT/ACT scores for a regular applicant and they each got in to their colleges of choice with no issues. However, admissions can and will turn down any athlete who they think isn't academically on par. (One of the already "committed" seniors on my team is struggling with this) From what I understand some universities are more lenient on test scores than others.

Ivy leagues seem to give their recruits way less leeway! I have a few friends who are gymnasts at different ivy leagues and none of them got below a 27 on their ACT or a 2000 on their SAT. I find it hard to believe that Yale would accept a 1600, as the coaches had to pull quite a few strings to convince admissions to accept the gymnast who received a 27 ACT...

 

[Muddlethru]

The majority of my teammates who have gone to college on athletic scholarship did not make what would be considered competitive SAT/ACT scores for a regular applicant and they each got in to their colleges of choice with no issues. However, admissions can and will turn down any athlete who they think isn't academically on par. (One of the already "committed" seniors on my team is struggling with this) From what I understand some universities are more lenient on test scores than others.

Ivy leagues seem to give their recruits way less leeway! I have a few friends who are gymnasts at different ivy leagues and none of them got below a 27 on their ACT or a 2000 on their SAT. I find it hard to believe that Yale would accept a 1600, as the coaches had to pull quite a few strings to convince admissions to accept the gymnast who received a 27 ACT...

I corrected my previous post. See follow up post. It was Notre Dame not Yale.

 

[Jennemmy]

TMI but here is what was presented at our booster club meeting --

Here is info on Ivy League athletes - http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/information/psa/index.
Merit-based scholarships truly aren't much help to a middle class family. No matter how large the endowment, an Ivy league school takes into account all your assets. So if you are a typical middle class family with a house & cars it is not likely you will get much money from an Ivy (again, remember they take into account everything your own as an asset, not just income). If your assets are over $100k but less than $150k, the parent contribution is about 75 - 90% (Harvard tuition is $58k this year). Out of state schools would be slightly less than what the Ivy school tuition might be with aid, in-state schools much less. (Possibly free if gymmie is very good!) : )

We have 4 gymnasts who have made verbal commitments to top programs. (All made commitments in 9th grade.) Every quarter the schools ask for transcripts, review upcoming course selections and the coaches visit a few times a year to monitor skills/improvements. So there is a commitment by the schools to the athletes but my POV is only to see if they want to keep them on the roster as the years go by.

Btw, there is a sliding scale for "student-athletes" to public schools. If you have a 3.5 gpa, you only need a 400 on your SATs. Lower gpa, higher SATs. All of the info is on the NCAA clearinghouse site -http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/eligibility_center/Quick_Reference_Sheet.pdf

But a few schools have stricter academic requirements, Stanford is one example, which is why you see their commitments later than other programs.

 

[Natasha]

I know some colleges have limited walk-on spots available. Anyone have any actual knowledge of how this works? I am just thinking about possibilities of academic scholarships and joining a team as a walk on.

 

[Muddlethru]

I know some colleges have limited walk-on spots available. Anyone have any actual knowledge of how this works? I am just thinking about possibilities of academic scholarships and joining a team as a walk on.

My son was offered a walk on in Stanford's fencing team provided of course he got through admissions. We met with the coach and the coach informed us he had given out all his athletic scholarships but would write a letter to admissions advising them he was interested in having my son in his team. He emailed informing us he was walking the letter into admissions. This is my only experience on walk ons. My understanding is you are basically on your own to gain admission into the college. Once in, if the coach is interested, he/she may offer you a spot in the team or you will need to try out.

 

[MeetDirector]

I know some colleges have limited walk-on spots available. Anyone have any actual knowledge of how this works? I am just thinking about possibilities of academic scholarships and joining a team as a walk on.

First off, you can't literally "walk onto" a gymnastics team; you have to be invited to join the team. A walk-on must meet all of the same admission requirements (including the NCAA eligibilty center), they just don't get a scholarship. Most schools don't fill thier available walk-on spots until the spring before graduation.

 

[Granny Smith]

As far as walk ons go, a fully funded gymnastics program will have 12 scholarships, if there are more than 12 girls on a team, which there usually is, then there must be walk ons. Doesn't mean that the walk ons don't have academic scholarships, but there are only so many athletic scholarships available. Then there are schools that are not fully funded or D2 schools, that have scholarships, but totally less than 12 and they can give partials.

My dd was a "late recruit", not until the summer heading into her Senior yr. The school that she got her scholarship to wouldn't even offer her anything until she went through a pre-read and showed that she could get into the school on her own merit. Once Admissions told the coach that yes she would be accepted, that was when he made dd an offer. This is not an Ivy or a Stanford type school. On one of our visits to the school the coach told me that basically every athletic must be able to get in on their own merit to be eligible to receive a scholarship. He did say that football got 4 and basketball got 2 spots for athletes that would meet the minimum of the NCAA requirements, but fell below the school's requirements.

 

[Natasha]

So walk on spots can be offered before enrolling in the college? I am not concerned about my dd getting into college on her own academic merit (not considering Ivy League but she has a few colleges on her list that have teams- also not top 20 gymnastic teams), just trying to figure out if it is possible to be offered a walk on spot, or if you have to wait until you are at the college and then try out.