Women Grace McCallum?…… (US Olympic Team Discussion)

[gym_dad32608]

I like that is was transparent. If they wanted to be on the team they had to bring it when it counted. Same as any other sport in the Olympic Trials. And I’m so glad Mykayla brought it and made the team as an individual. It feels a lot like vindication, and she earned it.

That's part of the problem, it wasn't transparent. Before trials, Tom spoke about putting together the highest-scoring team and the goal was to win as many medals for the US as possible. Then it seems that they just went with the all-around results from the trials. So if they were being transparent, they should have just said that from the beginning before championships. Statistically, we know that the team they selected was not near the best combination high score based on previous results and making matters worse, putting Skinner as +1 reduces the opportunity for medals not increases.

 

[NutterButter]

Simone seemed off to me. She did not seem like an athlete who is peaking like Sunisa or Jordan. A couple times I even wondered if she was in a fair amount of pain (she winced both days when getting her ankles taped and she looked like she was in pain before floor yesterday, she struggled more than usual to contain her power - JMHO). Sunisa looked like a peaking gymnast but the commentators talked a lot about her ankle injury. Seems like Tom played it safe and chose the best AA'er instead of shoring up specific events...maybe this was the best decision for this quad.

 

[CLgym]

I think you honor the integrity of the process by fielding the team that can win the most medals.

I agree that the goal should be selecting a group that has the potential to win the most medals (not sure what's up with the "you people" comment in response to my post?). My point was only that the rank order approach used by TF does not create the best team mathematically based on team score. I believe TF admitted this in his comments after. I think you could also argue that putting Myk in the second individual spot (again a decision apparently based on rank order) makes little sense in terms of medal count. I acknowledge, however, that there are factors beyond scores/math that are valid to consider.

 

[txgymfan]

I feel like I’m the only one that was not cheering for Mykala. I’m glad she was left off of the team if only because after the last Olympics she was very whiny, rude and even racist on social media. I know it was five years ago and I hope she has matured but I don’t like the person she showed herself to be. Even during her time at Utah, some of her social media posts she did not seem supportive of other athletes. I fully admit that I support athletes as people and for their character more than for their potential scores. Frankly, I was hoping others would outperform her and she would be left off the team all together.

 

[CLgym]

@txgymfan -- I definitely don't think you are alone! My comments were based on the numbers, not personalities/favorites.

Related question: Assuming everyone is healthy, who do we think will compete for team finals on each event (3 up, 3 count)? Any predictions?

 

[IreneKa]

@txgymfan -- I definitely don't think you are alone! My comments were based on the numbers, not personalities/favorites.

Related question: Assuming everyone is healthy, who do we think will compete for team finals on each event (3 up, 3 count)? Any predictions?

As of now Simone and Jordan on all 4, Suni - bars and beam, Grace - vault and floor. But things might change based on the numbers at the qualification round.
Am I understanding correctly that now all 4 can compete on all 4 events at qualifications? If I remember correctly last time only 4 out of 5 could compete on each of the events.

 

[CLgym]

@IreneKa — That’s my understanding. For qualification, 4 up and 3 count. For team finals, 3 up and 3 count.

Can someone confirm: In addition to the 4 team members, the +2 individuals can compete whichever events they want (including AA) in the qualification round, but will count towards the 2-per-country limit if they advance to individual event and/or individual AA finals, right?

 

[Deleted member 26718]

I saw a comment that someone on the selection committee is connected with Grace's gym. I would simply like to find out if that's true. Does anyone know exactly who was on the selection committee?

 

[Eleven sol]

I feel like I’m the only one that was not cheering for Mykala. I’m glad she was left off of the team if only because after the last Olympics she was very whiny, rude and even racist on social media. I know it was five years ago and I hope she has matured but I don’t like the person she showed herself to be. Even during her time at Utah, some of her social media posts she did not seem supportive of other athletes. I fully admit that I support athletes as people and for their character more than for their potential scores. Frankly, I was hoping others would outperform her and she would be left off the team all together.

I doubt you are alone disliking her; I certainly don’t love some of the things she said. But people don’t judge male elite athletes as harshly for personality defects. They judge them on their performance alone, unless they cross the line into criminal behavior.

Considering Mikayla was abused on USAG’s watch, which probably has affected her life profoundly, I was rooting for her to triumph. And she did. She finished fifth. Maybe it’ll bring her some peace.

As far as transparency, maybe they should write down exactly how the team is determined prior to having the Trials, but short of that, to an outside observer, it seemed like a pretty straightforward way to pick the team. I’m sure USAG is very conscious of their image at this time. The reality is just because someone has the potential to medal doesn’t mean they will perform at that level on a particular day. It’s not unlikely one or more of the athletes we send will have a bad vault day in the qualifying round. Day 2 of the Trials, many athletes were cracking under the pressure. Nothing is ever guaranteed, no matter what the calculations say about medal count.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

It's not letting me edit my last post now. Anyway to continue, so far I was not able to find a list proving who the Olympic selection committee consisted of. However I did find the selection committee for Nationals, the 3rd member of which was Jessie DeZiel and she is from Grace's gym (Twin City Twisters.) Can anyone confirm that Jessie was on the Oly selection committee? I just think this would deserve discussion.

 

[gymnast0812]

Jessie DeZiel was on the selection committee and was connected with TCT, but not necessarily Grace. Jessie was JO National AA Champ in 2010 and 2011 and was an elite for a short period, and was on the committee as the athlete rep. She trained at TCT, but I don’t think she ever met Grace. So yes there was a connection, but I don’t think it impacted the team selection, especially because it went straight down the results from trials (1-4 on team, 5 as the +1, and the next few as alternates).

 

[Eleven sol]

So I was confusing her with another gymnast with the abuse. Regardless I’m happy she made a comeback. Wouldn’t let me edit.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

I agree I can't find any evidence of impropriety, for now anyway. I just think the connection to TCT is worth thinking about.

Anyway, if they really just did pick 1-4, that seems almost worse than favoritism. What's the point of the committee then? I would imagine the argument would be something like "all other things being equal, they'll just choose the top 4 from the trials unless there is sufficient reason to override it, and in this case there was not." Obviously Biles, Lee and Chiles would be chosen based on their abilities and performance, and no sensible person would have changed those 3. But it seems at least that the 4th member should really be chosen based on countering any weaknesses of these top 3, and really not who happened to be 4th place at trials.

While I have followed gymnastics for a bit, I don't really know the relative abilities and consistency of all of these athletes in the 4 events. Does anyone have complete lists of each of their individual event scores from both nights of trials, nationals and other competitions from this year? That's another set of info I was trying to find but could not. I'd like to see a thorough analysis based on the numbers.

Lastly, does anyone think MyKayla (and also Chellsie Memmel at nationals) were conspicuously underscored at times? And if so, do you think it is based on ageism, or perhaps one "who is expected to do well" gets scored higher? Again it's hard to prove, but I have definitely seen the spectre of this bias in figure skating. Conspicuous underscoring and honestly what I would call abuse of the execution side of the scoring, seemingly to reward "who is expected to do well" and punish any dark horse, outsider, unknown or anyone making a comeback... anyone who hasn't "paid their dues" so to speak.

 

[gymgal]

Simone seemed off to me. She did not seem like an athlete who is peaking like Sunisa or Jordan. A couple times I even wondered if she was in a fair amount of pain (she winced both days when getting her ankles taped and she looked like she was in pain before floor yesterday, she struggled more than usual to contain her power - JMHO). Sunisa looked like a peaking gymnast but the commentators talked a lot about her ankle injury. Seems like Tom played it safe and chose the best AA'er instead of shoring up specific events...maybe this was the best decision for this quad.

I noticed this with Simone as well. It appears that she may have hurt her foot on beam (or an already hurt foot caused the fall. She was initially fighting back tears while being taped and then just let them flow

 

[txgymfan]

I doubt you are alone disliking her; I certainly don’t love some of the things she said. But people don’t judge male elite athletes as harshly for personality defects. They judge them on their performance alone, unless they cross the line into criminal behavior.

Considering Mikayla was abused on USAG’s watch, which probably has affected her life profoundly, I was rooting for her to triumph. And she did. She finished fifth. Maybe it’ll bring her some peace.

I decide who I cheer for based on character if they reveal it, male or female, in any sport. Being abused by USAG is no excuse, Simone was abused too.

I absolutely love it when athletes prove themselves in competition and with their notoriety show integrity, compassion, generosity etc. Some of my favorite athletes from the past 20 years include Roger Federer ( his winners speech from the 2017 Australian Open should be required watching for all athletes or just everyone, look it up), Chellsie , Simone, JJWatt, Simone Manuel and Katy Ledecky. The best of the best who are role models on and off the field. I also cheer for teams who demonstrate and insist on character in their athletes.

 

[gymgal]

I agree I can't find any evidence of impropriety, for now anyway. I just think the connection to TCT is worth thinking about.

Anyway, if they really just did pick 1-4, that seems almost worse than favoritism. What's the point of the committee then? I would imagine the argument would be something like "all other things being equal, they'll just choose the top 4 from the trials unless there is sufficient reason to override it, and in this case there was not." Obviously Biles, Lee and Chiles would be chosen based on their abilities and performance, and no sensible person would have changed those 3. But it seems at least that the 4th member should really be chosen based on countering any weaknesses of these top 3, and really not who happened to be 4th place at trials.

While I have followed gymnastics for a bit, I don't really know the relative abilities and consistency of all of these athletes in the 4 events. Does anyone have complete lists of each of their individual event scores from both nights of trials, nationals and other competitions from this year? That's another set of info I was trying to find but could not. I'd like to see a thorough analysis based on the numbers.

Lastly, does anyone think MyKayla (and also Chellsie Memmel at nationals) were conspicuously underscored at times? And if so, do you think it is based on ageism, or perhaps one "who is expected to do well" gets scored higher? Again it's hard to prove, but I have definitely seen the spectre of this bias in figure skating. Conspicuous underscoring and honestly what I would call abuse of the execution side of the scoring, seemingly to reward "who is expected to do well" and punish any dark horse, outsider, unknown or anyone making a comeback... anyone who hasn't "paid their dues" so to speak.

I don't think she was underscored. I find her gymnastics to be sloppy in ways that are easier to see than in other routines.

 

[CLgym]

@Ken1978 -- You can find all of the scores on MyUSAGym (here is the URL for trials scores https://myusagym.com/meets/live/79251/ and nationals scores https://myusagym.com/meets/past/79000/). On Twitter there are several gym fans/bloggers who have crunched the numbers re: best, average, etc.

I am not getting a conspiracy vibe from this whole thing. More like a "we don't want any drama so we will just go rank order" vibe. I have this image of the selection committee playing Candy Crush on their phones wondering if it is too soon to come out and make their announcement.

Part of me loves this team (it feels "fair" even if not the statistically smartest), and part of me wonders if we are resting on our laurels too much.

 

[gymgal]

@Ken1978 -- You can find all of the scores on MyUSAGym (here is the URL for trials scores https://myusagym.com/meets/live/79251/ and nationals scores https://myusagym.com/meets/past/79000/). On Twitter there are several gym fans/bloggers who have crunched the numbers re: best, average, etc.

I am not getting a conspiracy vibe from this whole thing. More like a "we don't want any drama so we will just go rank order" vibe. I have this image of the selection committee playing Candy Crush on their phones wondering if it is too soon to come out and make their announcement.

Part of me loves this team (it feels "fair" even if not the statistically smartest), and part of me wonders if we are resting on our laurels too much.

candy crush! LOL Love it! I had the same feeling that they were just twindling their thumbs. It doesn't take that long to make the decision. Just creating suspense

 

[skschlag]

I think it can take that long (less than 30 minutes) to discuss what to do. To look at the numbers, to debate, discuss, lobby, whatever it took.

In reality, they couldn't win. Those 3, and TF are in a position that no matter what they do, people will criticize. I would hate to be in that position.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I think this team makes the most sense. Suni is nursing an ankle injury, and they need a strong AAer as a backup that they can put up on any event. Grace fills that spot better than MyKayla. Grace is almost more consistent than Wong as an AAer. While she hit beautifully at trials, in the past her floor routine has given her some trouble, and she also had a little trouble on bars as well as beam on night one. I think MyKayla makes sense because if Simone or Jade were to get injured, MyKayla is a natural back up for both of them and can be pulled in from the specialist spot onto the main team. While I’m heartbroken for Riley, I’m not sure she has as strong of a chance at an individual bars medal. A lot of the top bar workers would have to make mistakes. She also isn’t as reliable as a back up for the main team because of her injured ankle, especially with one of the main team members already having a weak ankle. I also wonder if Jade’s injury is more serious than we know, and if Tom knows this as well. We have only seen one difficult vault from her and no floor routine with full difficulty. I think there may be questions concerning Jade’s health, and if that’s the case, MyKayla has a much better shot at an individual medal than Riley would have. I would love it if Riley were to get healthy and try for worlds though.