WAG Haney under investigation

[Sk8ermaiden]

I don’t think many of the parents are well educated. That’s why they are willing to condone absurdly high hours, overtraining, and verbal/emotional abuse at the compulsory levels for 7 year olds. And the culture has historically condoned this type of coaching, so no wonder they think it’s ok. EVERYONE needs to be held accountable. Coaches, gym owners, USAG, and parents.

The number of people who come on those facebook groups are are like, "My child has a severe sprain but the coach says she is faking, and she constantly screams in my child's face that she's a loser and then makes her do a handstand hold for an hour while encouraging the rest of the team to laugh. Then the gym owner videos my daughter's tears and puts them on Facebook. I'm not sure what I should do but now my daughter spends all her time hiding in the closet eating her hair. I'm not thrilled, but the next nearest gym is an hour away. I don't know, is this just how gymnastics is?"

"Is this just how gymnastics is?" Follows EVERY SINGLE post I have seen about egregious abuse. So yes, this is the public perception of gymnastics. Though you would think any sane parent would want no part of it if they truly believed it was universally that bad.

 

[OrchidZ]

The MG Elite handbook excerpts posted can not be interpreted or judged as presented. Each one of those is a cropped, individual screen capture of a specific part. You need the complete handbook to get the context and any extenuating circumstances or additional/alternate guidelines. It's entirely possible that each of these are bullet points or paragraphs where other circumstances/rules are handled in surrounding paragraphs/bullet points.

FWIW, I have gladly signed documents with most of these items included. Here's the truth about the versions *I* signed (which could easily have been given this kind of selective-screenshot treatment):

1) In our handbooks, the portion about parent viewing also contained a paragraph that said that parents may watch a full practice a certain number of days a week or month, but that parents watching every day is detrimental to the progress of the athlete. Apart from those full-practice-viewings, 15 minutes were allowed daily at the beginning and/or end of class. One gym asked that you tell the coaches when you intended to watch a full practice, but others did not. Most days, someone was watching because of the team size, but there were always multiple adults in the gym any time a minor was present.

2) The revolving door policy wasn't explicitly stated but was understood. It disrupts the team for people to come and go at will. They want you to be committed to the program and trust them. From what I've seen/read, many gyms dislike "gym hopping." It's not good for *anyone* for gymnasts to be constantly changing gyms. If there's something that you feel is a real problem with a gym, leave. Why would you go back? If it's not that important to you, why leave? Would your employer like you leaving at will and returning when you feel like it? Would you want an employee to do this to you? No, a gym isn’t your employer/employee, but team isn’t a rec class. Continuity is important.

3) The vacation policy was a recommendation. Sure, you can take another vacation (the number of days may be limited; more on that later), but the suggested vacation week is one when the gym will be off. Your kid will not be trained, so it's a good time to take a family vacation with minimal impact to training. None of my girl's gyms forbade other vacations, but the coaches wanted to know the days so that they could plan. I was told that it's better if they train all the girls at the same time on things at certain stages, and if there's going to be a kid missing for a week or two, they'll rearrange their plan so that everyone is present for it. After a "gym-wide vacation", they are all on the same page and can all come back up to speed together. For the more competitive gyms, no they don’t want excessive vacation time because it affects the child’s gymnastics and fitness. The vacation guidelines are made with the assumption that you and your child also want for them to be competitive and successful.

4) Elite gymnast vacations. My kid isn't Elite, so I can't speak to this directly, but I was told by a coach and a gym owner/manager that when a kid is Elite, continuity is crucial. Taking more than a day or two off can slow them down considerably. I can't recall the stats I was told, but I think they said that for every extra day off, it will take (I think it was) about week to get back to where they were. If you and your kid are going to go through everything it takes to get to that level and are lucky enough to have all those stars align.. good gym, good coaching, talent, health, 'right age', mental toughness, flexibility, etc.. ALL of that.. If a vacation makes that big of an impact to their fitness, progress, and safety, wouldn't it be better to make informed choices about when to take vacations and their suggested duration?

5) Some are condemning the medical release portion, but there's not enough information provided to indicate if the parent is *not* informed before the gym makes medical decisions (aka, this is just the release. Perhaps the prior paragraph says that the gym will try to reach the emergency contacts but if they can not, they will need permission to act in the best interests of the gymnast.) As such, they'd need this document on file. You want them to be able to take your child to a hospital in the case of a serious emergency where you can't be reached or can't arrive in time. If it comes down to a serious emergency, which hospital they go to won't matter as long as your child can get treatment quickly.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I don’t think many of the parents are well educated.

I disagree.

I think they put up with it, because they want- their kids to “winners” as in Elite, going to get a ride, going to the Olympic gymnasts

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The MG Elite handbook excerpts posted can not be interpreted or judged as presented. Each one of those is a cropped, individual screen capture of a specific part. You need the complete handbook to get the context and any extenuating circumstances or additional/alternate guidelines. It's entirely possible that each of these are bullet points or paragraphs where other circumstances/rules are handled in surrounding paragraphs/bullet points.


4) Elite gymnast vacations. My kid isn't Elite, so I can't speak to this directly, but I was told by a coach and a gym owner/manager that when a kid is Elite, continuity is crucial. Taking more than a day or two off can slow them down considerably. I can't recall the stats I was told, but I think they said that for every extra day off, it will take (I think it was) about week to get back to where they were. If you and your kid are going to go through everything it takes to get to that level and are lucky enough to have all those stars align.. good gym, good coaching, talent, health, 'right age', mental toughness, flexibility, etc.. ALL of that.. If a vacation makes that big of an impact to their fitness, progress, and safety, wouldn't it be better to make informed choices about when to take vacations and their suggested duration?

5) Some are condemning the medical release portion, but there's not enough information provided to indicate if the parent is *not* informed before the gym makes medical decisions (aka, this is just the release. Perhaps the prior paragraph says that the gym will try to reach the emergency contacts but if they can not, they will need permission to act in the best interests of the gymnast.) As such, they'd need this document on file. You want them to be able to take your child to a hospital in the case of a serious emergency where you can't be reached or can't arrive in time. If it comes down to a serious emergency, which hospital they go to won't matter as long as your child can get treatment quickly.

And unless you have the MG Elite handbook you really don’t know that it doesn’t say exactly as it reads.

The parent viewing seemed really clear.

And everyone can take a vacation. JMO, but if you are at the Elite Level you have a high degree of muscle memory..... and the no vacation time off thing....
I call BS, kids come back from injury with weeks/months off. Of course they can take a week or 2 off. And if they are at the Elite Level, you can bet they are conditioning on their time off. Heck even my L8 13 yr old, voluntarily conditions I. Her vacations.

And again regarding that medical release. No one is making medical decisions for my kid while I draw breath, except me or my husband. Without that sentence spelled out crystal clear. It’s Buh bye, I don’t care if you can guarantee her an Olympic gold medal.

 

[FlippinLilysMom]

The MG Elite handbook excerpts posted can not be interpreted or judged as presented. Each one of those is a cropped, individual screen capture of a specific part. You need the complete handbook to get the context and any extenuating circumstances or additional/alternate guidelines. It's entirely possible that each of these are bullet points or paragraphs where other circumstances/rules are handled in surrounding paragraphs/bullet points.

FWIW, I have gladly signed documents with most of these items included. Here's the truth about the versions *I* signed (which could easily have been given this kind of selective-screenshot treatment):

1) In our handbooks, the portion about parent viewing also contained a paragraph that said that parents may watch a full practice a certain number of days a week or month, but that parents watching every day is detrimental to the progress of the athlete. Apart from those full-practice-viewings, 15 minutes were allowed daily at the beginning and/or end of class. One gym asked that you tell the coaches when you intended to watch a full practice, but others did not. Most days, someone was watching because of the team size, but there were always multiple adults in the gym any time a minor was present.

2) The revolving door policy wasn't explicitly stated but was understood. It disrupts the team for people to come and go at will. They want you to be committed to the program and trust them. From what I've seen/read, many gyms dislike "gym hopping." It's not good for *anyone* for gymnasts to be constantly changing gyms. If there's something that you feel is a real problem with a gym, leave. Why would you go back? If it's not that important to you, why leave? Would your employer like you leaving at will and returning when you feel like it? Would you want an employee to do this to you? No, a gym isn’t your employer/employee, but team isn’t a rec class. Continuity is important.

3) The vacation policy was a recommendation. Sure, you can take another vacation (the number of days may be limited; more on that later), but the suggested vacation week is one when the gym will be off. Your kid will not be trained, so it's a good time to take a family vacation with minimal impact to training. None of my girl's gyms forbade other vacations, but the coaches wanted to know the days so that they could plan. I was told that it's better if they train all the girls at the same time on things at certain stages, and if there's going to be a kid missing for a week or two, they'll rearrange their plan so that everyone is present for it. After a "gym-wide vacation", they are all on the same page and can all come back up to speed together. For the more competitive gyms, no they don’t want excessive vacation time because it affects the child’s gymnastics and fitness. The vacation guidelines are made with the assumption that you and your child also want for them to be competitive and successful.

4) Elite gymnast vacations. My kid isn't Elite, so I can't speak to this directly, but I was told by a coach and a gym owner/manager that when a kid is Elite, continuity is crucial. Taking more than a day or two off can slow them down considerably. I can't recall the stats I was told, but I think they said that for every extra day off, it will take (I think it was) about week to get back to where they were. If you and your kid are going to go through everything it takes to get to that level and are lucky enough to have all those stars align.. good gym, good coaching, talent, health, 'right age', mental toughness, flexibility, etc.. ALL of that.. If a vacation makes that big of an impact to their fitness, progress, and safety, wouldn't it be better to make informed choices about when to take vacations and their suggested duration?

5) Some are condemning the medical release portion, but there's not enough information provided to indicate if the parent is *not* informed before the gym makes medical decisions (aka, this is just the release. Perhaps the prior paragraph says that the gym will try to reach the emergency contacts but if they can not, they will need permission to act in the best interests of the gymnast.) As such, they'd need this document on file. You want them to be able to take your child to a hospital in the case of a serious emergency where you can't be reached or can't arrive in time. If it comes down to a serious emergency, which hospital they go to won't matter as long as your child can get treatment quickly.

I can answer regarding the elite gymnast and taking vacation. All of the elite gymnasts at my daughters gym just got done with a weeks vacation, a vacation scheduled by the coaches to coincide with the end of the season. Strict instructions were given that the girls do not step foot in the gym for the entire week off. They wanted the girls to be just that, girls, not gymnasts, for that week. I was worried about how my daughter would do after an entire week off but she came back on Monday and picked up right where she left off, albeit a bit soar afterwards.

 

[amiandjim]

The MG Elite handbook is easily found on google. And it’s pretty straightforward, and honestly, just the tone of it would have had me running for the hills!

 

[Gymnastics_parent]

Much of the language/tone is related to parent ecpectations. Unfortunately, the behavior and expectations of parents sometimes needs to be clearly stated... Parents are not always on their best behavior. As far as access to practice, it is my understanding that has been modified. Injuries, at that level they need to be doing physical therapy and conditioning to minimize the impact of injury and recover as soon as possible... Just the reality of the sport.

My daughter is not at MG Elite and I am not saying that Maggie is an angel but those guidelines are not a indication of an abusive environment.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I don’t think many of the parents are well educated. That’s why they are willing to condone absurdly high hours, overtraining, and verbal/emotional abuse at the compulsory levels for 7 year olds. And the culture has historically condoned this type of coaching, so no wonder they think it’s ok. EVERYONE needs to be held accountable. Coaches, gym owners, USAG, and parents.

I think perhaps lack of education is true for some parents, but I think for a lot of them it’s more about getting their child to elite no matter the cost. Those are the parents that aren’t asking about the high hours, but bragging about how many hours their child is in the gym, along with the additional ten hours of weekly privates they are paying for.

I remember reading an article when the news of Geddert’s suspension first broke. There were many that were justifying leaving their children in that environment. One father in particular talked about letting his young level FOUR fly to Florida for a required meet without either of her parents going. While traveling to a meet isn’t necessarily wrong, what does it say about a gym that requires their compulsory gymnasts to fly to the other end of the country to a meet where most parents weren’t able to attend? It’s one thing for it to be optional, but required. When questioned about allowing his young daughter to travel so far without a parent, I believe the Dad’s response was something along the lines of “we didn’t have a choice, it’s required if she wants to stay on the team.”

You always have a choice, even if that choice doesn’t include gymnastics.

 

[MuggleMom]

I dont think that "not being educated" is an excuse. The point of that post was that ultimately its the parents responsibility and part of that responsibility is educating yourself! I did some gymnastics in the 80s and 90s so when my kid wanted to start the first thing I did was research cause I knew my knowldge was limited and outdated. Heck thats how I found this site. I learned the good the bad and the ugly. I keep my eye out for the latter and if it comes down to the mental and physical safety of my child its my job to say this is the line we do not cross much more so than a sport governing body. Heck wouldnt it be nice if people just did the right thing? Yes but that doesnt mean its going to happen--just like it wouldn't it be nice if Safe Sport could solve all our problems ---but yup you guessed it that's not going to happen either. If the gym you are at is horrible and its the only one in a 2 hour drive time to find a new sport. Is it fair? No--but who told you life is fair?

 

[LJL07]

The number of people who come on those facebook groups are are like, "My child has a severe sprain but the coach says she is faking, and she constantly screams in my child's face that she's a loser and then makes her do a handstand hold for an hour while encouraging the rest of the team to laugh. Then the gym owner videos my daughter's tears and puts them on Facebook. I'm not sure what I should do but now my daughter spends all her time hiding in the closet eating her hair. I'm not thrilled, but the next nearest gym is an hour away. I don't know, is this just how gymnastics is?"

"Is this just how gymnastics is?" Follows EVERY SINGLE post I have seen about egregious abuse. So yes, this is the public perception of gymnastics. Though you would think any sane parent would want no part of it if they truly believed it was universally that bad.

I was just talking to one of my gym mom friends yesterday about this. On paper, the abuse at the gym we left sounds absolutely HORRIFIC. My friend and I both agreed that even if all of those level 3&4 parents read the whole story and description of abuse, they would ALL still keep their young kids at the gym because they are “winners.” I guess by educating parents I mean that NONE of those children will ever go elite. It’s such a small percentage that actually makes it, and they are at a gym with an abusive coach who has never in her life produced a level 10, yet alone elite gymnast.

 

[LJL07]

I disagree.

I think they put up with it, because they want- their kids to “winners” as in Elite, going to get a ride, going to the Olympic gymnasts

Right. By well educated, I meant that none of the 7 year olds at the awful gym we were at will ever go elite. At least not at that gym. Those parents wouldn’t even bother to look up the statistics on elite gymnasts. They think 39s on level 3 equate with elite potential. That is complete nonsense. I don’t even think it indicates that they can make it to level 10. And then a coach who convinces the parents that 25 hours a week of training is necessary for levels 3&4? Well, there are just no words.

 

[Flippin'A]

For me the issue while reading this is how these two clauses work in conjunction: no parents watching, but sign away your child's medical decisions to us. They've ensured that a parent won't be in the building during an emergency, and then had everyone give blanket authority to them to take the child to a doctor. How many gymnasts were abused because their coaches required them to go to one particular doctor? And even beyond that, how many were forced to train on dangerous, painful injuries because USAG liked having a doctor who would claim gymnasts were healthy when they weren't? If I'm not in the building I will always be available by phone to give instructions to the coaches in case of an emergency, and if there are parents who can't promise that for whatever reason, the gym should have a whole list of emergency contacts for every single kid. I trust and adore my DD's coaches, but they're never going to get to decide what doctor she sees.

And yes-- the whole thing is available online and there are no additional clauses that make it more palatable.

 

[3rd_time_around]

The MG Elite handbook excerpts posted can not be interpreted or judged as presented. Each one of those is a cropped, individual screen capture of a specific part. You need the complete handbook to get the context and any extenuating circumstances or additional/alternate guidelines. It's entirely possible that each of these are bullet points or paragraphs where other circumstances/rules are handled in surrounding paragraphs/bullet points.

FWIW, I have gladly signed documents with most of these items included. Here's the truth about the versions *I* signed (which could easily have been given this kind of selective-screenshot treatment):

1) In our handbooks, the portion about parent viewing also contained a paragraph that said that parents may watch a full practice a certain number of days a week or month, but that parents watching every day is detrimental to the progress of the athlete. Apart from those full-practice-viewings, 15 minutes were allowed daily at the beginning and/or end of class. One gym asked that you tell the coaches when you intended to watch a full practice, but others did not. Most days, someone was watching because of the team size, but there were always multiple adults in the gym any time a minor was present.

2) The revolving door policy wasn't explicitly stated but was understood. It disrupts the team for people to come and go at will. They want you to be committed to the program and trust them. From what I've seen/read, many gyms dislike "gym hopping." It's not good for *anyone* for gymnasts to be constantly changing gyms. If there's something that you feel is a real problem with a gym, leave. Why would you go back? If it's not that important to you, why leave? Would your employer like you leaving at will and returning when you feel like it? Would you want an employee to do this to you? No, a gym isn’t your employer/employee, but team isn’t a rec class. Continuity is important.

3) The vacation policy was a recommendation. Sure, you can take another vacation (the number of days may be limited; more on that later), but the suggested vacation week is one when the gym will be off. Your kid will not be trained, so it's a good time to take a family vacation with minimal impact to training. None of my girl's gyms forbade other vacations, but the coaches wanted to know the days so that they could plan. I was told that it's better if they train all the girls at the same time on things at certain stages, and if there's going to be a kid missing for a week or two, they'll rearrange their plan so that everyone is present for it. After a "gym-wide vacation", they are all on the same page and can all come back up to speed together. For the more competitive gyms, no they don’t want excessive vacation time because it affects the child’s gymnastics and fitness. The vacation guidelines are made with the assumption that you and your child also want for them to be competitive and successful.

4) Elite gymnast vacations. My kid isn't Elite, so I can't speak to this directly, but I was told by a coach and a gym owner/manager that when a kid is Elite, continuity is crucial. Taking more than a day or two off can slow them down considerably. I can't recall the stats I was told, but I think they said that for every extra day off, it will take (I think it was) about week to get back to where they were. If you and your kid are going to go through everything it takes to get to that level and are lucky enough to have all those stars align.. good gym, good coaching, talent, health, 'right age', mental toughness, flexibility, etc.. ALL of that.. If a vacation makes that big of an impact to their fitness, progress, and safety, wouldn't it be better to make informed choices about when to take vacations and their suggested duration?

5) Some are condemning the medical release portion, but there's not enough information provided to indicate if the parent is *not* informed before the gym makes medical decisions (aka, this is just the release. Perhaps the prior paragraph says that the gym will try to reach the emergency contacts but if they can not, they will need permission to act in the best interests of the gymnast.) As such, they'd need this document on file. You want them to be able to take your child to a hospital in the case of a serious emergency where you can't be reached or can't arrive in time. If it comes down to a serious emergency, which hospital they go to won't matter as long as your child can get treatment quickly.

Time off should be at the discretion of the parents. I don’t think meet season is the time for that, but they shouldn’t be given dates that they can go. Jobs and school also come into play.

Time off was always beneficial to my high level gymnast. She’d come back stronger and better than ever. When we stopped taking time off is when she started getting injured more often. If I could go back in time, she’d have taken two weeks off every June and a week before meet season started. Missing a few days will not derail an elite gymnast.

Parents watching all of practice in most cases is not detrimental to the gymnast. There are some who should step out for perspective, but most I know who stay the whole time are fine. They do work, they read, they socialize. Mostly its because the distance keeps them from being able to drive back and forth efficiently and economically.

As for people leaving the gym and returning, I have seen many gymnasts leave for another gym because they thought it would be better or whatever. Many have also been welcomed back when it didn’t work out at the other place. These gymnasts ease right back into the team without any weirdness or different treatments or disruptions. I like that they are welcome back.

 

[Tigtimes]

This issue is not contained to Gymnastics. It is across ALL youth sports. Crazy hours, high pressure parents and coaches. At some point the responsibility needs to fall on the parent shoulder as well, and honestly there are enough narrow minded - win at all cost -college scholarship parents out there that I sadly think it is an uphill battle. As long as parents support the programs the change will never happen and my guess is MG Elite has a waiting list miles long .....

 

[rjb123]

Its funny but i was literally just signing our yearly paperwork and on one of the forms it listed parent expectations. First in line was that parents are welcomed and encouraged to watch. I know that HC has said that she is fine with watching, there is an open door policy at all times (always has been this way- nothing is hidden!) and even said she felt it would be good for the girls to see their dads come to watch them from time to time as well. (its mostly moms you see there- I suspect she was trying to encourage dads to be more engaged). No gym is perfect, but I admit this discussion has once again made me quite thankful that I took DD there for that preschool class all those years ago!

 

[Gymmom826]

Yep

And unless you have the MG Elite handbook you really don’t know that it doesn’t say exactly as it reads.

The parent viewing seemed really clear.

And everyone can take a vacation. JMO, but if you are at the Elite Level you have a high degree of muscle memory..... and the no vacation time off thing....
I call BS, kids come back from injury with weeks/months off. Of course they can take a week or 2 off. And if they are at the Elite Level, you can bet they are conditioning on their time off. Heck even my L8 13 yr old, voluntarily conditions I. Her vacations.

And again regarding that medical release. No one is making medical decisions for my kid while I draw breath, except me or my husband. Without that sentence spelled out crystal clear. It’s Buh bye, I don’t care if you can guarantee her an Olympic gold medal.

As per USAG, I thought they said parents were allowed to view practice now at all gyms.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

Regarding the leaving policy, I think it really just depends on the reasons that you chose to leave and the terms on which you left. That one policy alone doesn’t raise too many concerns for me. Our gym’s policy is that you can leave once and come back but you can’t leave a second time and then return to team.

 

[kendo348]

As per USAG, I thought they said parents were allowed to view practice now at all gyms.

MG Elite has made it pretty clear they feel themselves exempt from other USAG rules, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they view themselves as an exception to this one as well!

 

[amiandjim]

A couple thoughts:

1) I think the notion that parents must be taught how to behave or they will all act like crazy gym parents really compounds the problem. You have all these gyms trying to keep parents out, not communicating well, not having the ability to ask questions. This, in turn, breeds some crazy behavior. If more gyms would simply be clear about their policies and expectations, have at least yearly progress reports, and be open for questions, I think parents would not be so high strung about the whole thing. Sure, there will always be those absolute crazy people living through their kids, but they aren’t as common as most gyms and coaches like to think.

2) I absolutely think lower level parents need more education. The coaches say “trust the process, Suzy is a level 3 with great potential. Bring her here 24 hours a week.” And they think, “Oh, that must be what’s necessary.”

3) As far as the MG Elite handbook, it was more the tone and wording that bothered me. You don’t have to say “MG Elite is not a revolving door.” Simply state, “if your child leaves the team, she may not be able to return.” And speaking of that, our gym has had MANY gymnasts leave and come back. Kids have different needs at different times in their career, and I’m happy our owner/head coach understands that and welcomes them back with open arms (unless they left with a bunch of drama, of course.).

 

[gymmom21]

I am surprised people are questioning the rules regarding vacations. I thought a lot of gyms had rules that no missed days are allowed the week prior to a meet or you can't compete. That is similar to a policy that limits vacations. Other sports and activities (cheer/dance/ scholastic sports) have policies regarding not missing practices or games or competitions and the consequence is being benched or kicked off the team. I don't find this policy controversial or unique to gymnastics.

The revolving door comment is appropriate also in that parents need to understand you can't just decide to not be on team for a few months to pursue another activity and then come back after a few months off year after year or season after season. Yes the language is tough but stating this type of expectation would be necessary for a new parent.