WAG Haney under investigation

[kecks]

one time in my life in elite sports (athete, coach) someone complained seriously about a coach (germany, another sport). it was a very successful, very tough and very loving coach. everything looked perfect, even felt perfect if you trained in one of his sessions while not being the victim. very tough, but not abusive in the least. really not in the least. i was 19 years old back then and i would have any kid let go with this guy at any given moment. my own coach trusted him totally, he was just a great guy allaorund. turns out one of the kids he abused opened up to his parents, they went to the police, investigations started and a few weeks later he got arrested because they could trace back over 100 cases of sexual abuse of athletes back to him. he confessed and is in prison to this day, made national news bigtime. i was there in the training hall when they arrested him and i did not believe any of the accusations that we heard about the next morning. i thought this can not be true, must be one injured, bitter not successful junior athlete who tries to take out his dissapointment on not making it big time on his former coach. boy, was i and were we wrong. glad someone believed this kid and started a serious investigations. otherwise he would never ever have been caught.

so please believe athletes reporting any sort of abuse. witch hunts are not the usual outcomes of such scenarios. arressted abusers are the usual outcome.

 

[moogacat]

Re the concerns about witch hunts, and fears of admonitions to "believe survivors":

I was lucky enough to be at a conference this summer where Rachel Denhollander spoke, and where I got to interview Tarana Burke, the originator of the "Me Too" movement. Both specifically discussed the issue of false accusations, and whether things have moved too far to where we are unfair to those accused. Both said the mantra "believe survivors" does not mean that every accusation is automatically true, or that you have to suspend your critical thinking skills. It is meant to address the dynamic so pervasive in our society that victims of abuse, whether sexual, physical, or emotional, are automatically disbelieved. At best they were ignored; at worst they were vilified and demonized so they would shut up. Just look at what happened to Dominique Moceanu when she spoke up about the Karolyis. Believe survivors means you take them seriously and you investigate their claims. You provide a process whereby both alleged victim and alleged perpetrator can be heard and truth sorted out.

What's been lacking in the past, and is unfortunately still lacking, is a process that all sides can trust. We as a society, and a sport, are struggling with what that process will look like. We're not there, but the struggle and discomfort is sign of the progress, and we won't get to a proper process without that struggle.

 

[kecks]

i have to correct myself, i just looked at my old clippings about the case and i got the details wrong (remembered it wrong aka mixed to parts of the story up in my memory)): the kid that opened up to his parents only got his father to confront the coach, the coach denied everything, the parents did not go to the police or file an official complaint, nothing more happened. the acutual arrest was the result of another victim who as an adult tried to blackmail the coaches's parents into paying money or he would go to the police with his case, they did not pay, he went to the police, *they believed him* and the investigations started. so bottomline: believe the athletes, get officials/police involved.

 

[Omelianchik]

Both said the mantra "believe survivors" does not mean that every accusation is automatically true, or that you have to suspend your critical thinking skills. It is meant to address the dynamic so pervasive in our society that victims of abuse, whether sexual, physical, or emotional, are automatically disbelieved.

I simply can't like or highlight this enough. I'm consistently disappointed that the gymnastics community doesn't seem to have learned anything from the Nassar case (not only his abuse, but everything that came out about so many of the athletes' experiences with their coaches and training environments that made athletes so vulnerable to his grooming.) As you say, of course in each individual case the accused deserves to be treated fairly and given the benefit of a thorough investigation. But we don't have a societal problem of a huge wave of false allegations. We have a societal problem where people are STILL bending over backwards to dismiss allegations and fear mongering about witch hunts.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I simply can't like or highlight this enough. I'm consistently disappointed that the gymnastics community doesn't seem to have learned anything from the Nassar case (not only his abuse, but everything that came out about so many of the athletes' experiences with their coaches and training environments that made athletes so vulnerable to his grooming.) As you say, of course in each individual case the accused deserves to be treated fairly and given the benefit of a thorough investigation. But we don't have a societal problem of a huge wave of false allegations. We have a societal problem where people are STILL bending over backwards to dismiss allegations and fear mongering about witch hunts.

The problem is you never hear about the false accusations . But they are there . And USAG will keep you listed until you spend money and get a lawyer to demand they take your name off and then they do it quietly . And yes ironically while this is going on people Who should absolutely be on the list remain off.

 

[tomtnt]

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[MILgymFAM]

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Personally, I feel bad for people who grow up thinking this is the only way to become disciplined or successful, and who internalize that to mean that anything else is soft or babied. A coach physically threatening a child with violence is just flat out abhorrent to me.

 

[Omelianchik]

And USAG will keep you listed until you spend money and get a lawyer to demand they take your name off and then they do it quietly.

That IS a big problem, and (yet) another example of how USAG has consistently failed both coaches and gymnasts.

I think "Hey, let's remember that this is an ongoing investigation and no findings have been announced" is a valid sentiment, especially when we're talking about a specific person rather than the issue of abuse in general. It still isn't reasonable to act like abuse allegations are being filed left and right because "little Susie got her feelings hurt." As others have pointed out, that kind of reaction is part of the culture of dismissing victims that we're trying to fight.

As far as "never hearing about false allegations," both in my professional work and in casual use of social media, etc. I have literally NEVER seen a post about any sort of allegation where multiple people do not immediately jump in with "BUT REMEMBER THE FALSE ALLEGATIONS!" when the fact is that every study I've ever come across confirms that people already massively overestimate the rates of false allegations.

(Edited to try to make sure i was clear)

Oops, I THOUGHT I was editing! Could a mod please delete my previous post?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

That IS a big problem, and (yet) another example of how USAG has consistently failed both coaches and gymnasts.

It still isn't reasonable to act like abuse allegations are being filed left and right because "little Susie got her feelings hurt." As others have pointed out, that kind of reaction is part of the culture of dismissing victims that we're trying to fight.

As far as "never hearing about false allegations," both in my professional work and in casual use of social media, etc. I have literally NEVER seen a post about any sort of allegation where multiple people do not immediately jump in with "BUT REMEMBER THE FALSE ALLEGATIONS!" when the fact is that every study I've ever come across confirms that people already massively overestimate the rates of false allegations.

It’s different for me and other coaches who actually personally know people who were put on the list , their lives damaged Financially, emotionally and respectively. Your not going to find that on a study . As for the suzie comment , that was in reference to USAG apparently leaking emails about complaints prior to listing someone . Which is a huge problem. Look the bottom line is good coaches will soon find other things to do.... it’s not worth it . Only because no one trusts safesport and their decisions either way. That we can all agree on

 

[Omelianchik]

It’s different for me and other coaches who actually personally know people who were put on the list , their lives damaged Financially, emotionally and respectively. Your not going to find that on a study . As for the suzie comment , that was in reference to USAG apparently leaking emails about complaints prior to listing someone . Which is a huge problem. Look the bottom line is good coaches will soon find other things to do.... it’s not worth it . Only because no one trusts safesport and their decisions either way. That we can all agree on

Thank you for clarifying. I think we're actually a lot more on the same page than I thought.

I do think there's an argument for the information that someone is under investigation being public because if I were a parent looking for a gym, I would certainly want to know if there were serious enough allegation against a coach to trigger an investigation, and because it's so often crucial in giving additional victims the chance to come forward. I do hear you, though, about not wanting every email to potentially become a news story.

And absolutely, I think we can all agree that the official handling of all of this has been a disaster. If it's a fair investigation, there has to be a possibility to clear the person's name if the allegations are unfounded, and like you said, that can't happen if the results aren't made public or if no one trusts that the investigation means anything.

 

[Letstalkgymnastics]

Great so now if someone even files a complaint we make the news........ Imagine if this were your profession.....

It shouldn’t be leaked out .... it’s just a matter of time before someone complains about all of us.... my suzie got her feelings hurt.. shouldn’t be made public until it’s official ..... Imagine if school teachers were listed in the news every time a Parent complained. There has to be a system in place , that’s all I am saying

Leaked?? What are you talking about. The person(s) who made the reports to Safesport have every right to tell their story to whoever they want. And think about it...if their story wasn't credible, would Scott Reid really print the story? C'mon.
You obviously do not understand anything about the US Center for Safesport or USAG Safesport policies and process. Please feel free to ask me questions. I will enlighten you.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

You obviously do not understand anything about the US Center for Safesport or USAG Safesport policies and process. Please feel free to ask me questions. I will enlighten you.

Ummmm he’s been around a while. He gets it.

 

[FlippinLilysMom]

It’s different for me and other coaches who actually personally know people who were put on the list , their lives damaged Financially, emotionally and respectively. Your not going to find that on a study . As for the suzie comment , that was in reference to USAG apparently leaking emails about complaints prior to listing someone . Which is a huge problem. Look the bottom line is good coaches will soon find other things to do.... it’s not worth it . Only because no one trusts safesport and their decisions either way. That we can all agree on

This is what terrifies me, that good coaches are going to walk away, realize it's not worth the risk.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

.

Leaked?? What are you talking about. The person(s) who made the reports to Safesport have every right to tell their story to whoever they want. And think about it...if their story wasn't credible, would Scott Reid really print the story? C'mon.

You obviously do not understand anything about the US Center for Safesport or USAG Safesport policies and process. Please feel free to ask me questions. I will enlighten you.

welcome , yes I would love enlightenment. Let’s start with Dan W from Arizona who is a well known and respected coach. Why was he placed on a public list and then removed a week later? Please take us all through the process on that one .

 

[Letstalkgymnastics]

Given the history of abuse in the sport, I think it’s fine to be overly cautious about abuse allegations. I don’t think there will be a mass rush to file complaints about hurting feelings, or not moving kids up. Those parents will vote on your program with their feet. There are still plenty of coaches that are nurturing but tough. There are also coaches, like a poster wrote about recently who made a kid hold a split for 45 minutes while she was in tears. Should the coach lose her job? Probably not, but she should be educated about why this shouldn’t happen. Most professionals, like MD’s, lawyers, teachers have mandatory continuing education to teach best practice. At our gym, the coaches do this also.

If anyone holds my daughter in the splits for 45 minutes while she is in tears, losing their job will be the least of their worries. Im filing a police report and calling children's services

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Leaked?? What are you talking about. The person(s) who made the reports to Safesport have every right to tell their story to whoever they want. And think about it...if their story wasn't credible, would Scott Reid really print the story? C'mon.

You obviously do not understand anything about the US Center for Safesport or USAG Safesport policies and process. Please feel free to ask me questions. I will enlighten you.

I have to ask. I’m confused with your post . On one hand you say that the accusers should be able to tell anyone . Which indicates that they were not getting the necessary response or action from safe sport and went out around them. Which I can see happening . But in the same post you are clearly defending safesport policies and process? They seem to contradict each other . Unless I am reading it with a different meaning in mind ?

 

[FlippinLilysMom]

If anyone holds my daughter in the splits for 45 minutes while she is in tears, losing their job will be the least of their worries. Im filing a police report and calling children's services

Coaches are no longer allowed to hold a gymnast in a stretching position.

 

[Letstalkgymnastics]

Yes correct . The point I am making is this organization (both safesport and USAG). Has a proven track record of failure . Including
1)putting the wrong people on the list and then quietly taking them off.
2) apparently ignoring Nassar child molesters and allowing them to continue to molest , but don’t make a kid do too Many pushups or rope climbs.
3) ignoring legitimate complaints because they are high profile people, but suspend everyone else and don’t follow up ...just leaving them on the list .... until they spend money to clear themselves ...
5) calling on stupid complaints ... but make our 18 year old athletes take a sefesport course right before regionals or they don’t get to go to nationals ....
etc...
So my point is this organization lakes the ability to properly investigate anything. It’s bad enough that two people I know were put on the list (one was over a year) and then cleared . Just think about that for a second .... and now USAG is apparently leaking emails ? ( Unless I read it wrong ). So my fear is the same organization that just can’t get it right is going to publicize all complaints .... bogus or not ..

Your statements are literally so inaccurate I do not even know where to start. 1) Who was put on the list and then quietly taken off?? 2) USAG is guilty of ignoring abuse but Safesport didn't exist while Nasser was sexually molesting children. No one is having sanctions imposed on them by USAG or Safesport for making gymnast do rope climbs and pushups. 3) Ignoring high profile cases??? What do you call Geddert, Li, Haney, Nyman?? All high profile that are under investigation right now. Not to mention the recent investigation in other Oympics sports like Horse Jumping. US Olympic Equestrian George Morris is the most iconic name in the sport and US Center for Safesport investigated him and imposed sanctions rendering Permanently Ineligible. I can't even go on.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Your statements are literally so inaccurate I do not even know where to start. 1) Who was put on the list and then quietly taken off?? 2) USAG is guilty of ignoring abuse but Safesport didn't exist while Nasser was sexually molesting children. No one is having sanctions imposed on them by USAG or Safesport for making gymnast do rope climbs and pushups. 3) Ignoring high profile cases??? What do you call Geddert, Li, Haney, Nyman?? All high profile that are under investigation right now. Not to mention the recent investigation in other Oympics sports like Horse Jumping. US Olympic Equestrian George Morris is the most iconic name in the sport and US Center for Safesport investigated him and imposed sanctions rendering Permanently Ineligible. I can't even go on.

Sounds like you need to check around a little

 

[duyetanh]

"Suzie got her feelings hurt" is not remotely the same thing as multiple families filing a formal complaint about verbal abuse. Schoolteachers ARE typically in the news when allegations of abuse are made.

This coach, like any other, is of course entitled to the presumption of innocence, and if she is cleared, I hope that information is appropriately publicized. On the flip side, if the allegations against a coach are true, having the information be public gives other victims a chance to come forward (and is indeed what frequently happens - it is MUCH easier to say "me too" than to bring an allegation on one's own). I think there must be a balance somewhere, and I don't claim to have the perfect solution, but jumping to the conclusion of "oh, now EVERYONE will be making allegations" is a) not based on anything resembling fact; and b) smacks of the same dismissive attitude that has allowed so much abuse to fester.

I get that you're a coach and your instinct is probably "what if this happened to me (knowing I would be innocent)?," but the idea that innocent coaches' careers are being ruined left and right is laughable. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a prominent elite coach who had two gymnasts die under his care, another whose rape of his gymnasts was documented in print for YEARS while he continued to coach, and the NATIONAL TEAM COORDINATORS whose abusive techniques were described again and again while the gymnastics community bent over backward to excuse them. I don't see it as a bad thing that allegations are finally being taken seriously.

Your statements are literally so inaccurate I do not even know where to start. 1) Who was put on the list and then quietly taken off?? 2) USAG is guilty of ignoring abuse but Safesport didn't exist while Nasser was sexually molesting children. No one is having sanctions imposed on them by USAG or Safesport for making gymnast do rope climbs and pushups. 3) Ignoring high profile cases??? What do you call Geddert, Li, Haney, Nyman?? All high profile that are under investigation right now. Not to mention the recent investigation in other Oympics sports like Horse Jumping. US Olympic Equestrian George Morris is the most iconic name in the sport and US Center for Safesport investigated him and imposed sanctions rendering Permanently Ineligible. I can't even go on.

There definitely have been coaches put on the list and then quietly taken off. There have also been coaches accused of things that did not happen and even when cleared, their careers are done. And no I do not care to give those names or details. Those coaches have been through enough. And no I am not a coach, but I believe in looking very closely at this stuff, because I have a daughter in the sport. Honestly there has been EVERY scenario possible in terms of coaches accused. And as a former educator who was accused of something that went all the way to the attorneys before I was cleared because the proof finally came out (thank God!), it just sucks that innocent coaches are getting lumped in with the ones who are NOT innocent and completely deserve whatever punishment they get and then some.