Coaches Hindorff Vs. Tkachev

[ryantroop]

So.. I've been pondering lately the mechanical differences between these skills, and Im still a little stuck on why we don't teach the hindorff like we do a tk. Why don't we teach the bridge shape from the free hip?

As a little background, I recently took the plunge and coughed up for the J. Geddert DVDs for some ideas on teaching skills to see if he has any different methods, and the gym that I am in is limited in their available equipment - i.e., no pit, no overhead rig.

I know I can hand spot a tkachev in various forms, and I was thinking if I can adapt the hindorff into a tk method/shape, I can handspot it, and break it down as well, but Im hesitant to go forward with this idea without consulting others.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[GymCoachSara]

The last gym i worked at worked the hindorff more than the tkachev. Before the gymnast was even allowed to try training this skill they had to do 5 clear hip to handstands in a row.
We also taught this skill on the bar, since we didn't have the spotting equipment and resi pits.
1. We did clear hip open early to push the shoulders back hard, for extension through arms and shoulders
2. We would also stack up 8 in mats behind the low bar and actually spot the clear hip to the tkathev and have the gymnast standing on the bar then jump down onto the mats and grab the bar.
3. After they got the timing right and were throwing at the correct time we would do the skill to a straddle sit on the mats stacked up (if that makes sence)
4. We would then lose the stacked mats and if they can make it on the low bar we would add the giants and hit the high bar.

We would always do side stations of the back extensions to bridge. Laying on a octagon mat on thier back and roll forward in straddle while reaching in front.

I hope most of this makes sence, its difficult to try to explain the drills, especially when your working with just a bar set and a few mats.
Good luck!
Sara

 

[ryantroop]

I completely followed. Thanks

While I wasnt quite looking for alternative development methods (although I do very much appreciate it), I see that your last gym emphasized an open shoulder position.. this is fairly counter to what Geddert explains in his video, as he (seems) to emhpasize a sharp lifting motion and a tight shoulder arch (think pak salto shape instead of a bridge shape).

Thanks for the input!

Ryan

P.S. did you do a partner spot for the lift to stand?

 

[GymCoachSara]

The head coach was able to spot this alone, I learned how to spot this skill by doubling the spot .
Sorry for the confusion on that last post.

 

[gymdog]

well a tkatchev is coming up from uder the bar in an extended position. This allows the shoulders to thrown forwards in the way you describe. Though not everyone seems to favor that. If you did a hindorff that way, you'd have to shoot up and then down...you'd either lack height over the bar or backwards displacement...this kind of relates to Dr. George's "peaking" principle "all body parts should line up at the vertical at the same time." If I'm understanding you right then what you are describing would essentially require the body to move forwards in a backwards moving skill.

I hope that makes sense. Maybe I'm not understanding right.

 

[ryantroop]

I suppose there would be a lack of vertical flight... but I have seen a lot of very low tk's as well, especially at the NCAA level.. I would think, though, that a free hip could enter the same flexed position and allow enough flight.. You are correct in that the body would have to move forward some, but I would think that would create tension since the circling motion would continue to carry over the bar, and the snap would generate flight and counter rotation... or am I just imagining that the human body is built to do that?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I suppose there would be a lack of vertical flight... but I have seen a lot of very low tk's as well, especially at the NCAA level.. I would think, though, that a free hip could enter the same flexed position and allow enough flight.. You are correct in that the body would have to move forward some, but I would think that would create tension since the circling motion would continue to carry over the bar, and the snap would generate flight and counter rotation... or am I just imagining that the human body is built to do that?

it does not enter the same flexed position. a tkatchev is an 'out bar' skill that has an already open arm angle. a hindorff is an 'in bar' skill where the arm angle is closed and must be opened.

the first opens completely at/near parallel. the 2nd near vertical.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

So.. I've been pondering lately the mechanical differences between these skills, and Im still a little stuck on why we don't teach the hindorff like we do a tk. Why don't we teach the bridge shape from the free hip?

As a little background, I recently took the plunge and coughed up for the J. Geddert DVDs for some ideas on teaching skills to see if he has any different methods, and the gym that I am in is limited in their available equipment - i.e., no pit, no overhead rig.

I know I can hand spot a tkachev in various forms, and I was thinking if I can adapt the hindorff into a tk method/shape, I can handspot it, and break it down as well, but Im hesitant to go forward with this idea without consulting others.

Any thoughts on this?

because if you did, the athlete would either dismount the bar OR would land on the bar on their back. you can not effectively handspot a hindorff. before you move forward you need to get to a gym in your area that has an athlete(s) doing this skill. tkachevs are relatively easy. hindorffs are not.

reason? good giants are easy. good free hip to handstands are not.

and as coaches know that have taught both, bad giants are excellent candidates for tkatchevs. the same can not be said for the free hip to hand and a hindorff.

 

[ryantroop]

Dunno, I understand the differences between the skills, I was simply doing a mental exercise in my brain about the physiology behind the skill.

Appreciate the feedback, though. I think I got my answer Basically, it's too much motion for too short a time.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i think you mean kinesiology...or biomechanics or physics. i don't think you meant the study of life or how organs function.

and your "answer" does not apply in this instance. everything in gymnastics is relative as it applies and relates to the biology of the athlete and what they are physically capable of performing.

 

[ryantroop]

hehe you are right.. Im house sitting and my brother's dogs have kept me up all night, so call me sleep deprived. Wrong word

However, now I feel you're just being snarky... for the most part, we all agree on methods that work for as a model for "good technique." I have seen free hips that end up fairly arched above the bar (generally, these are failed attempts at the skill), and taking notice, I wondered if this could be an acceptable method for a hidorff, vs. the established tight lift and shoulder flexion.. I was considering this as a way to slow the skill down, or even break it apart for more managable chunks for the athlete to digest as a progression, but I do not have the luxury of dedicating a gymnast to flights of fancy and theory. I was deferring to those who (without a doubt) have more experience, and a longer history of coaching and experience than I do.

As your replies seem to suggest otherwise, please understand I am not willing to take risks in regards to my athlete's abilities, development, health, or longevity. I would never teach something I did not feel confident would work, nor that I feel I do not have the experience necessary to safely progress my gymnasts. However, I am never so proud to think that I am the end all, be all, in regards to coaching. The purpose of even purchasing the videos was to see a very talented coach's methods, to see if he could suggest some other ways to get the idea across - as we all know, each athlete learns differently, and the more we have in our bag of tricks, the better. Also, seeing as he has produced world class athletes, I am led to beleive that he employs methods that improve longevity and decrease potential injury; something I am always willing to learn.

Generally, Dunno, I appreciate your opinions and comments. However, I feel you may have misunderstood the purpose and nature of my question.

No harm, no foul...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

huh???????????

 

[ryantroop]

Sorry.
Please feel free to ignore me. Seriously.. two dogs who woke me up every hour on the hour because a car drove by, or because they were fighting with each other.. was a rough night.
It was rather rambly...

 

[GymCoachSara]

In regards to spotting the hindorff, it has and is being done. I worked at a gym where we didn't have a pit or spotting block, so to help the gymnast "feel" the positions of the move, we did manipulate her body half way through the clear hip to the catch. It is difficult to do, but needed when you don't have the proper equipment. Its definetly not ideal but for safety it worked for us and she was able to compete it safely and nicely.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i certainly did not mean to imply spotting could not be done. what i said is that you can't effectively spot one. to clarify, most coaches can not. and you stated that you doubled the spot. that is even more difficult. it has to be done above the bar and can be set up to do so even without a pit whether on a low bar or high bar. what makes it precarious is if the skill is done straddled.

then when the time comes you must spot from below. very precarious there too. you must know what you are doing. and again, if it's straddled the coach has to watch out for that leg coming around at your face. to close to the bar and the gymnast goes past you. to far from the bar and the coach gets kicked in the face or chest. and then the countless ruptured bicep tendons from the coach reaching in a bit late. whew!

we use trampoline drills with a bar and then to the spotting belt and then with a light spot with the coach standing on a deck above the bar over a pit. doing it manually from start to finish is very difficult. my hat is off to you and your coach.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

How does Tkatchev from a clearhip compare to one from a toe-on? I've never done or taught either (or anything remotely similar to either), but to me the toe-on Tkatchev looks much easier than the clearhip Tkatchev.

EDIT: In fact, a Tkatchev from a toe-on looks easier to me than a Tkatchev from a giant -- assuming the kid has the flexibility to do it.

 

[gymdog]

How does Tkatchev from a clearhip compare to one from a toe-on? I've never done or taught either (or anything remotely similar to either), but to me the toe-on Tkatchev looks much easier than the clearhip Tkatchev.

Well from a sheer mechanics standpoint, all things being equal, a toe on is a more closed/compressed position, so you get greater potential than that. Most common for "reverse hecht action" OVER the bar is from a giant swing, but using the same population (lets use JO, where there is somewhat less variety of releases for various reasons) it would be seriously uncommon to see a hecht from low bar up to high bar from a free hip shape - a toe on is pretty much expected, because the "closure" allows for greater potential.

The limits of the toe on position are of course flexibility, ability to get into the shape correctly which I suppose is somewhat trickier than a free hip for many (though maybe I'm projecting that because you would almost have worked a clear hip extensively first, anyway, of course, either way you have to drill the toe drop as an additional shape), making sure both feet get on without slipping which could be a valid concern when using the speed of the drop required for the harder skills from this position.

But it would be the same idea with having to shoot up first, discussed in the original post. Otherwise the path of movement is deflected forward, i.e. toe up to high bar. You can generate great height and rotation if you do it right, but you're not going to travel over the bar

 

[Deleted member D3987]

gymdog, good job.^^^ and geoff, toe on anything is far easier than clear/free hip. again, free/clear hip is "in bar" and toe on is "out bar".

 

[GymCoachSara]

i certainly did not mean to imply spotting could not be done. what i said is that you can't effectively spot one. to clarify, most coaches can not. and you stated that you doubled the spot. that is even more difficult. it has to be done above the bar and can be set up to do so even without a pit whether on a low bar or high bar. what makes it precarious is if the skill is done straddled.

then when the time comes you must spot from below. very precarious there too. you must know what you are doing. and again, if it's straddled the coach has to watch out for that leg coming around at your face. to close to the bar and the gymnast goes past you. to far from the bar and the coach gets kicked in the face or chest. and then the countless ruptured bicep tendons from the coach reaching in a bit late. whew!

we use trampoline drills with a bar and then to the spotting belt and then with a light spot with the coach standing on a deck above the bar over a pit. doing it manually from start to finish is very difficult. my hat is off to you and your coach.

I agree completely, it was hard to spot and now that I am at a gym with proper equipment its nice to do the progressions to attain the skills. I'm still a fan of placing a gymnast in the proper shapes (1 at a time) so she can understand the final product. I like your views on the sport, very specific and detailed. Its very helpful! Thanks