Parents How does your gym warm up vault in competition

[skschlag]

After thinking, I wanted to add that some people are "naturals" or seem to be at some events. This kiddo that you are speaking of might be that way. It would concern me as a parent if a coach assumed that because something works for one gymnast, that it will work for the team. Each gymnast is so different, and an important part of coaching is knowing that. That kid might be able to throw a kas full with zero warming up, but it sounds like this approach could add stress to your child. that would be the part that worried me.

 

[profmom]

We have a kid who is capable of doing it, Skschlag. He is very talented on floor and vault. If he did it at a meet during warmups, he would never have to worry about vaulting again, because our coach would kill him. But I absolutely agree with your comment above. You cannot take what works for one kid and just use that as a template to coach every other kid on the team -- not for skills, not for progressions, and not for emotional and psychological management. Arnold may respond really well to tough coaching and enjoy being pushed hard. Bobby may need encouragement and enthusiasm from the coaches to try the hard stuff but will do it if coached positively. Carlos may have some fear issues and need to work drills longer, but could be the guy whose skills are the cleanest once he's comfortable competing them. And Demetrius may get surly and shut down when he's yelled at and required to do ropes, making it all but impossible for him to hear the feedback his coaches are providing the next time he does something.

JenJean, no coach is going to come over to your coaches and say, "gee, why are your guys all throwing their vaults on their first warmup runs?" They will instead talk about how nuts your coaches are at the hotel bar later that night.

Optional vault can be dangerous under the best of circumstances. These are not the best of circumstances. I hope a few coaches will chime in here. If I could wish anything in the world for you, I'd wish that your coaches would spend a year going to every optional clinic within arms' reach without any athletes at all and just watch, listen, ask questions, and learn.

Edited to add: why on earth would they worry about not having time to warm up vault of all things? Did they never go to meets before they had their top optional guy? I've been at meets where warmup times were shortened, and our guys will do a cold pbars or pommel set once in a while as a just in case. (I'm talking really maybe 2-3 times a season.) But not vault. Never vault. First because it's dangerous. Second because it is totally and completely unnecessary. Vault takes very little time to warm up, even if you have guys doing different vaults or using different table settings. Remember that no matter how the meet is run, the guys who are warming up vault are working in the same time frame as the guys who are warming up pbars and floor, which obviously take longer.

 

[Natasha]

I don't know anything about MAG, but I do know that the R&P state for USAG women that in timed warmups for vault it stated that each gymnast is allowed 3 warmups minimum. Our optional girls always do at least one timer before their vault- I've never seen anyone just throw it.

 

[jenjean70]

After thinking, I wanted to add that some people are "naturals" or seem to be at some events. This kiddo that you are speaking of might be that way. It would concern me as a parent if a coach assumed that because something works for one gymnast, that it will work for the team. Each gymnast is so different, and an important part of coaching is knowing that. That kid might be able to throw a kas full with zero warming up, but it sounds like this approach could add stress to your child. that would be the part that worried me.

I haven't seen him do it and even though he's competed the skill for a year I have seen him fall quite a bit on it. It could be because his back is injured but he's hit or miss in practice so....

 

[jenjean70]

We have a kid who is capable of doing it, Skschlag. He is very talented on floor and vault. If he did it at a meet during warmups, he would never have to worry about vaulting again, because our coach would kill him. But I absolutely agree with your comment above. You cannot take what works for one kid and just use that as a template to coach every other kid on the team -- not for skills, not for progressions, and not for emotional and psychological management. Arnold may respond really well to tough coaching and enjoy being pushed hard. Bobby may need encouragement and enthusiasm from the coaches to try the hard stuff but will do it if coached positively. Carlos may have some fear issues and need to work drills longer, but could be the guy whose skills are the cleanest once he's comfortable competing them. And Demetrius may get surly and shut down when he's yelled at and required to do ropes, making it all but impossible for him to hear the feedback his coaches are providing the next time he does something.

JenJean, no coach is going to come over to your coaches and say, "gee, why are your guys all throwing their vaults on their first warmup runs?" They will instead talk about how nuts your coaches are at the hotel bar later that night.

Optional vault can be dangerous under the best of circumstances. These are not the best of circumstances. I hope a few coaches will chime in here. If I could wish anything in the world for you, I'd wish that your coaches would spend a year going to every optional clinic within arms' reach without any athletes at all and just watch, listen, ask questions, and learn.

Edited to add: why on earth would they worry about not having time to warm up vault of all things? Did they never go to meets before they had their top optional guy? I've been at meets where warmup times were shortened, and our guys will do a cold pbars or pommel set once in a while as a just in case. (I'm talking really maybe 2-3 times a season.) But not vault. Never vault. First because it's dangerous. Second because it is totally and completely unnecessary. Vault takes very little time to warm up, even if you have guys doing different vaults or using different table settings. Remember that no matter how the meet is run, the guys who are warming up vault are working in the same time frame as the guys who are warming up pbars and floor, which obviously take longer.

That's what I thought too....vault is the shortest event. You have time. ...Our head coach was maybe 20 when he took over the program from his dad and he's 25 or 26 now so he's still brand new. I don't think he competed himself beyond a level 7 or 8.

 

[jenjean70]

Ok. So I just talked to the boy who won vault and he said that he always warmed up doing a cartwheel on before he tried to throw anything. He said that now the kas is easy for him so it's not a big deal to throw it right away. He also said that he never threw a layed out kas full without warming up. He said that the coaches want you to be able to do it in case you go to the bathroom and miss warm ups. Our head coach has been to nationals 3 times with this boy although the year before last 3 boys went to nationals (level 8) and last year 4 boys went- 3 level 9 and one level 8. The coaches really care about the kids and they want the best for them but they also want to win. The four coaches goal is to produce Olympians. I think with experience they will be able to do it but I don't know if our boys will be "it"- and my DS doesn't like anyone talking about the Olympics to him...it is not his goal for gymnastics at age 12 and I don't know that it ever will be. Right now he is having fun doing gymnastics, fun with friends and fun with the coaches...

 

[skschlag]

So many thoughts...

In 10 years, my ds has never missed all of a warm up to go to the bathroom.....

As for their "goal is to produce Olympians"....in the next 4 Olympic cycles, 16 US men will make the Olympic team. Yes, more might be able to go as IES, but 16 total men, out of all the kiddos doing gym in the entire US, will make the Olympics. The math on that is hard to ignore.

I really hope this philosophy works for your kiddo. My ds was under a similar philosophy before we changed gyms, and he was constantly injured. The "cross your fingers and chuck hard skills" does not work for every kid. He has learned now that drills, consistency, and competing skills that are "easy" for you inproves scores and keeps you healthy. He still "hurts" alot, but is not constantly injured (unless he picks up a coolerlol).

 

[gymgal]

I talked to the coach last night and he said that they practice it and if they don't go for it the first time they get 3 rope climbs so it is up to them to go for it or not. He said that when DS doesn't go for it he just goes over and climbs the rope and they don't make a big deal about it. I guess they do it this way because they said that they don't have much time to warm up in actual competition.

It sounds like they do timers in competition? They just want the boys to be prepared on the off chance there isn't enough time at a competition? This has never happened in any girls competition I have ever been to (and that's a lot of sessions!) but who knows, maybe it does happen in boys meets. And what exactly is happening in the practices? So if he doesn't go for the Vt the first time, what does he do? Does he do the RO on the table and just land without flipping? OR does he not even attempt a vt? If it is the first and then he has to go rope climb, it's not a big deal. As long as they continue to allow him to VT after and he then does his vt after 1-2 timers.

I still don't agree with what they are doing, including the punishment, if the boys don't do the vt without timing but I suppose it is not like they are saying - if you don't do it our way, then you don't compete. Or you are off the team. There is not much you can do aside from voicing your concerns, which is sounds like you already have. It sounds like in general you are happy with the program so I would be likely to let is slide, while letting ds know you are comfortable with him doing timers, against the coach's directions.

 

[jenjean70]

So many thoughts...

In 10 years, my ds has never missed all of a warm up to go to the bathroom.....

As for their "goal is to produce Olympians"....in the next 4 Olympic cycles, 16 US men will make the Olympic team. Yes, more might be able to go as IES, but 16 total men, out of all the kiddos doing gym in the entire US, will make the Olympics. The math on that is hard to ignore.

I really hope this philosophy works for your kiddo. My ds was under a similar philosophy before we changed gyms, and he was constantly injured. The "cross your fingers and chuck hard skills" does not work for every kid. He has learned now that drills, consistency, and competing skills that are "easy" for you inproves scores and keeps you healthy. He still "hurts" alot, but is not constantly injured (unless he picks up a coolerlol).

Luckily my kid won't chuck the skills unless he feels confident with them. His body won't let him. He loves the gym and the coaches and I know he doesn't want to leave.

Thankfully he's not aiming for the Olympics and his goal is level 10 so we're good staying at this gym. We have one boy who skipped level 9 and went to 10 because of age and my DS has more difficulty in his routines as an 8 than that boy as a 10 so I'm not worried about him making his goal.
As for drills- our gym does many drills and as the coaches learn they add more. We got a new coach added a couple of years ago and he has the most experience coaching and competing so he understands gymnastics from a competitors stand point. He has made slight corrections to things my DS does and he has been able to do things better than our top level boy. The head coach asked him what he said and he told him and then he told the top boy and he was able to do it to. Unfortunately our best gymnasts all do homeschool so my DS only gets to practice with them on Saturdays.
One of the homeschool boys mentioned to his mom how well my DS was doing and how many skills he was gaining in the after school program. I think he was surprised since he practices 12 fewer hours a week. I think it keeps his mind and body "fresher". Also my DS started training most of these skills 1 to 2 years ago and some even more so he's ready compete them now. They are STILL trying to fix his p bar giant. My DS said his shape is wrong and he's tapping at the wrong time. Hopefully he'll get it by the end of the season.

 

[jenjean70]

It sounds like they do timers in competition? They just want the boys to be prepared on the off chance there isn't enough time at a competition? This has never happened in any girls competition I have ever been to (and that's a lot of sessions!) but who knows, maybe it does happen in boys meets. And what exactly is happening in the practices? So if he doesn't go for the Vt the first time, what does he do? Does he do the RO on the table and just land without flipping? OR does he not even attempt a vt? If it is the first and then he has to go rope climb, it's not a big deal. As long as they continue to allow him to VT after and he then does his vt after 1-2 timers.

I still don't agree with what they are doing, including the punishment, if the boys don't do the vt without timing but I suppose it is not like they are saying - if you don't do it our way, then you don't compete. Or you are off the team. There is not much you can do aside from voicing your concerns, which is sounds like you already have. It sounds like in general you are happy with the program so I would be likely to let is slide, while letting ds know you are comfortable with him doing timers, against the coach's directions.

I think so. At least it sou DS like they've done them in the past. It sounds like he does his timer in practice, does his ropes and them vaults and he's fine with it. I'm also fine with him doing timers in competition. I tell him to do what makes him feel safe. The first competition is Friday so I'll be curious to see how it goes. I'll keep y'all posted.

 

[duyetanh]

So many thoughts...

In 10 years, my ds has never missed all of a warm up to go to the bathroom.....

As for their "goal is to produce Olympians"....in the next 4 Olympic cycles, 16 US men will make the Olympic team. Yes, more might be able to go as IES, but 16 total men, out of all the kiddos doing gym in the entire US, will make the Olympics. The math on that is hard to ignore.

I really hope this philosophy works for your kiddo. My ds was under a similar philosophy before we changed gyms, and he was constantly injured. The "cross your fingers and chuck hard skills" does not work for every kid. He has learned now that drills, consistency, and competing skills that are "easy" for you inproves scores and keeps you healthy. He still "hurts" alot, but is not constantly injured (unless he picks up a coolerlol).

I just can't "like" this post enough.
OP I am sure you are now very nervous, and I am sorry.....it is very hard being put in these situations.

 

[jenjean70]

**UPDATE** DS had his first meet on Friday and it went really well. I see where the coaches are coming from in regards to warm up. The gymnasts only had 6 minutes to warm up each event except for floor which was 5 minutes. He only got two warm up vaults. He did a timer his first vault (not what the coach wanted but the coach knew DS was going to do it anyway) then he did the vault his second warm up and landed it. Each boy only got two tries before competition began. All the other events it was one warm up and then go! They changed his floor routine and his rings and high bar routine a little to make them more consistent and cleaner. He forgot to do a part of him pommel routine but still scored a 13.1 even with the lower start value. He got 8th AA with a score of 73.6 out of 75 gymnasts. He looked pretty solid and confident on all of his events. I am really proud of him. He has come a long way. Here is his competition:

 

[sce]

Wow, great start to his season! That floor routine makes so much more sense than the one from the mock meet. Now he can work on cleaning those passes and landing up and his score will continue to go up.

 

[skschlag]

Nice job! those routines are much better than the ones from the mock meet. Off to a great start!

 

[gymgal]

Nice! I don't know anything about men's. Do you not have a certain number of minutes per gymnasts for warm ups? In women's it is 2min per gymnast in the upper levels. With that and all the girls pooled together, that's a lot of time. Enough for 2 timers and 2-3 vts. I just find it odd that in men's, they can reduce that time for warm ups

 

[skschlag]

I've never seen warmups that short in a meet, especially with that many boys. It is usually 10-15 minutes, or longer if rotations are longer.

 

[jenjean70]

I've never seen warmups that short in a meet, especially with that many boys. It is usually 10-15 minutes, or longer if rotations are longer.

Honestly, that's the norm at the meets we've been to. It's usually 6 or 7 minutes and I've never seen it longer than 10 minutes. This was a pretty big meet with an average of 12 gymnasts per apparatus. They had two sets of everything to warm up on (except floor of course) but that still only gave each gymnast 60 seconds to warm up each event. I wonder if they gave the level 9s and 10s more time....probably not because the meets all lasted about 4 hours WITH awards. They were running like clock work.

 

[jenjean70]

Nice! I don't know anything about men's. Do you not have a certain number of minutes per gymnasts for warm ups? In women's it is 2min per gymnast in the upper levels. With that and all the girls pooled together, that's a lot of time. Enough for 2 timers and 2-3 vts. I just find it odd that in men's, they can reduce that time for warm ups

They don't give each gymnast a time- it's more of a general time. They say 6 minutes and then competition will begin. After 6 minutes they announce to the judges to begin the competition.

 

[jenjean70]

Nice job! those routines are much better than the ones from the mock meet. Off to a great start!

Thank you! I could see it in his face that he felt good about the changes. I am so glad he decided to stay a 3rd year in level 7. It gave him a year to work on some new skills without the pressure to compete them. The coaches are making him do harder skills in practice routines to get ready for next year which is a good idea for DS.

 

[jenjean70]

Wow, great start to his season! That floor routine makes so much more sense than the one from the mock meet. Now he can work on cleaning those passes and landing up and his score will continue to go up.

Thank you and I agree. The coaches said they are going for a different approach this year and since that was just the mock meet it was OK to throw in everything but the kitchen sink on floor. LOL!