WAG Inequality in the gym (a corollary to my previous post about changing gyms)

[txgal]

Has anyone out there experienced inequality in their gym? The situation:

DD 9 and DD 11 competed new level 4 this year. DD 9 did quite well; DD 11 struggled with bars (huge growth spurt and the loss of her 'little girl' body are the most likely culprits). As level 4s, their gym schedule is 3 hours/day x 4 days/wk (12 hours/wk). As I said, DD 9 did well with this schedule (she made it to South State, but just missed qualifying for State--she needed top 9 and came in 11th); she was routinely scoring high 35s/low 36s AA with consistent 9s on every event besides bars (she usually was high 8s/low 9s, but not consistent).

However, there are a group of level 4s (3 of them, actually) who, for ridiculous reasons (yes, that's my opinion) were permitted to train as 5s;s that is, they were 4s, doing 4 skills, competing 4 routines, but were given 18.5 hours a week in the gym. And of course, they were amazing. I think this is grossly unfair to both my girls (and their other 12 hour/wk teammates)--DD9 would also have been amazing with an entire year of an extra 6.5 hours/month and 4 hours/month in the summer months).

Has anyone else experienced a situation similar to this and, if so, how did you handle it? I have spoken with the head coach about it and she just shrugs her shoulders like she just doesn't want to deal with it. She is also from China and may have trouble understanding why a parent would be upset about something she sees as trivial (she tells my DD9 just has to be more consistent in her meets and she would have qualified for State--seems like a complete cop-out to get out of having to explain the inequality, but again, my opinion).

(By the way, the reason the other 3 get to work out as 5s is because their parents said they couldn't get them to the gym on the days the other 4s train, but the only day they don't share is Tuesdays. It seems to me the more appropriate thing to do would be to trade days--a Monday for the Tuesday, for example, but keep the same number of hours. Am I making too much out of this?)

 

[GymMom67]

We do have a similar thing at our gym, with the same level, but it is for more "official" reasons. When they moved the girls up last year, they put several of them into the level "5/6" training group. They pay more money and go more hours, but they have still competed at Level 4. I'm not really that familiar with most of them, but one of them is the daughter of a good friend of mine, and she is completely amazing. I have no doubt the extra training time helps, but I also have no doubt she would be amazing even without it. She just got 1st place on every single apparatus at south state. She and my DD were on the same developmental team, so I've been watching her even before I knew her mother, and I have always seen that this was in her future.

 

[txgal]

We also have a group of girls who are competing 4 and training as 5s, but they are repeating the level (they were 5s last year and dropped down to repeat the skills). I don't see a problem with this as I would want my child who is repeating 4 next year to get the extra training time so she can move on. The girls I have an issue with are the girls who are basically the same level as mine but are getting extra time simply because their parents can't make one of the practice days. I watched my little one at South State and couldn't help but wonder if her 11th place finish would have been higher had she had the extra time like the other girls (all of whom, by the way, qualified for State).

 

[2G1B]

We have something similar at our gym, though for different reasons. It is with a girl who is a higher level than my kids, so I don't know many of the details; but I have heard the parents of some kids who work out with her complain. I don't have any advice; but I admit that I think when I hear how much better this kid is doing than the rest of the team I kind of think to myself, "well, would the rest of the team be doing a lot better if they had that many hours too?"

 

[txgal]

My reaction is exactly the same. I know my DD 9 would be doing a lot better with the extra hours; her older sister (11), maybe not so much. But for me, it's the principle that matters. My 9 year old is old enough to understand some of her teammates get 6.5 more hours per week than she does, and they routinely score 37-38 in the AA. Since she is 35-36 range in the AA is it a reasonable leap for a 9 year old to make that she would also likely be in the 37-38 range with the extra hours? Absolutely. When she asks me why so-and-so gets extra hours, what do I tell her? She sees it as the HC playing favorites because she likes certain kids better (or because they're older and have more maturity, thus making them a bit easier to work with...yes, my little one is an emotional fireball and wears her feelings and emotions on her face and will be very direct with anyone--teammate or coach--when they ask her a question). I don't know what to tell her to ease her frustration at just missing out on State--she sees that she would likely have easily qualified had she had the extra time and, sadly, she's probably right. There's nothing I can do or say to make that realization any easier for her...

 

[MaryA]

If the kids going more hours are older, it may be that the coach thinks that an extra 6.5 hours a week is more developmentally appropriate for them than for your younger DD. Or the coaches may feel pressure to move them more quickly since they have "less time left" (before puberty, before they graduate, or whatever) than your DD. If you feel like your DD is getting what she needs from the team, don't worry about what others are getting. If you don't, and if you aren't having your concerns addressed by the coaches, look elsewhere.

 

[GYM0M]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the top 9 from each of the sub divisions at north/south state automatically qualify for state, BUT then the next 30 top scores over all age divisions then qualify as well. We just competed at TX North State!

 

[txgal]

My DD is 9, the other girls are 10, 11, and 12. Older, but not significantly so. Most of their extra training time is devoted to conditioning, which mine doesn't get because of the few hours she has with her coach (the focus has been skills and routines, but her coach consistently tells me that when she gets stronger, the skills will get better; she really could use the extra conditioning).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the top 9 from each of the sub divisions at north/south state automatically qualify for state, BUT then the next 30 top scores over all age divisions then qualify as well. We just competed at TX North State!

They do, but I'm not sure what the cutoff score is going to be. DD's coach says she still has a shot, but she wanted to earn it, not get in on a wild card and she really and truly believes had she had the same amount of time as the others, she would have finished near the top. For her, it is so much more than just qualifying for State--moving levels is also at stake for her (though if her gym tries to make her repeat 4, that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back, as she is consistently scoring in the mid35/low 36 range, which should constitute proficiency at even the best of gyms).

 

[GYM0M]

If she qualifies she did earn it! Lol!

I know that you are frustrated and this is a great place to vent!! But actually the opposite thing happened at North State for some of our girls. We have a TOPs program. These girls, my dd included, train 4.5 hours a day M-F, level 4s that are not in the TOPs program train 3 hours a day M-F with Wednesdays off. We had a level 4 qualify and one of our TOPs girls in the same division did not. That TOPs momma shares your frustration equally for the opposite reason.

 

[JoyAvenueMom]

I have asked permission for Kipper to train one day per week with the L5/6 group. After reading your post, I can see how some of her team mates might think this would not be fair. However, she already has the L5 skills on floor and beam and was only held back b/c of bars. There is a good deal of variation in skill level on her team, but none of them already have these skills. At this point, her group is perfecting the skills and routines they are competing, and Kipper does not get to work on other skills she already has, and hasn't worked on anything new since July. In this case, working out with the other group might be considered as appropriate based on her current skills, where it would not be appropriate for the other girls who have not learned those skills...and may not be ready to work on them. So, I agree with MaryA on this one. What is right for one, may not be right for the other, and there may be more to the story than you know.

 

[juststartingout]

We have the same situation at our gym. My daughters group practices 3 days a week for 3 hrs each (9 total) another group that competes the same level practice 5 days a week for 3 hours each (15 total). What is strange at our gym is that none of it is based on natural talent or anything like that. You start preschool classes and each class is overseen by a different head coach. So depending what head coach oversaw your preschool class depends on which one moves you to their preteam then team group. One coach chooses to do 5 days a week the other doesn't. I don't think that the other coach doesn't want to do more hours it's just that the other has seniority and there is no room for another group in the gym on the other 2 days. My daughter came in at age 6 from the gyms other location and they put her in the 5 days a wk group. I actually moved her because while that group did more hours there was a lot more that they expected you to work on independently and at 6 I felt my daughter needed more direction. I feel that she has gotten further in her 9 hr group than she would have in the 15 hr group. Our girls also go neck and neck with the girls with more hours. Where it affects our girls is that I don't think they will move up quite as fast because there isn't as much time for uptraining. I'm ok with that though because she is only 7 now and has plenty of time. I also look at it like those girls going 5 days may just burn out eventually while my daughter always wants more. We have a coaches kid who was doing the 5 days group (same age as my daughter) and she would regularly be on the floor crying and just looking miserable. Recently she went down to 3 days a wk although she stayed with her training group. So sometimes more isn't always better. Wow that was a book. I do understand how you feel and we have lots of moms in our group who feel the same way but some things you can't control so just make the best of what you have. You said it's mostly conditioning they do in the extra time, have her maybe work on conditioning at home.

 

[Deleted member 15064]

There's a reason the coach/coaches are choosing to do this, and I don't think it has to do with 3 families not being able to get to the gym on day x y or z. That's just my guess.

The group with more hours may be uptraining, or because they are older there is a desire to move them along more quickly, or whose focus & maturity make the extra hours more fruitful.

Clearly your younger daughter wants to be in that group. Focusing on doing her absolute best on the days she is there should show her readiness to make that step. (and you've let the coach know she is interested in more hours).

One thing I can't imagine is a coach holding back a gymnast who wants to go more hours and train more, if they think it will improve that particular gymnast.

 

[gymdog]

Just ask the coach for an honest assessment of whether your DD would be suited for extra hours since she's asking for more gym time. And be prepared to hear the answer (that she may not be availing herself of 100% of the current time she has, that she isn't mature enough, etc). 12 is a LOT older than 9, and a 12 year old level 4 with potential to do optionals needs to be accelerated.

 

[happychaos]

I HATE, HATE, HATE this!!!! Our gym just started this, with slightly more than 1/2 of the level 4's offered an "extra practice" every week. The best L4's are in this group as well as 1/2 the average girls, and none of the lowest performers. I can understand some of the theoretical reasons for doing this, but in reality I think it divides the team, makes some girls feel terrible, and gives others an, often unwarranted, self-esteem boost. The worst part is that the group is supposed to be on the "down-low" and parents and girls in the group are encouraged to not talk about it (cause young girls are soooo good at this...). It has made it uncomfortable talking to some of the parents I previously enjoyed talking too, as I am always hoping the subject doesn't come up.

The worst part of it is that most of the girls in the group are only slightly better (if at all) than the girls not in the group. I feel that the "extra practice" should have been offered to all the girls. I guess the honeymoon is over with the new gym.....

 

[bookworm]

Could it be that this group that gets extra practice time is training TOPS (or something similar)? If I were you I'd just ask why these other girls were training differently and if it were possible for my girls to be in that group....and be prepared to get a not so nice answer...I think if the coaches felt the whole group of 4s would benefit from the increased training then they would have them all doing it...

More isn't always better, in our old gym, we had a girl who trained 36 hours a week (yes, you are reading correctly) and scored no better ( and often worse) than the rest of our group who trained 22 hours a week..the family felt that if this was how she did with 36 hrs/week , then it just wasn't possible to drop hours because then she'd be terrible...go figure

 

[SignHere]

I feel that the "extra practice" should have been offered to all the girls. I guess the honeymoon is over with the new gym.....

Here is what I told my DD when the "extra practice" was not offered to her. "Life is not fair. Gymnastics is not fair. There is a first place winner in gymnastics, and there are girls who don't place."

Clearly, the coaches are making some effort in order to "develop" the compulsory girls who have the potential to score high enough to get winning scores for the team. Coaches like to have winning teams. This gets them new parents and more business. An "extra practice" will allow the coaches to really focus on those girls who have a really strong event (or 4 really strong events) get really, really high scores, so that they can win the team trophies.

 

[Aussie_coach]

This is totally normal in any gym environment. Teams, levels and hours are based on a subjective decision made by the coaches in most cases.

Gyms in my area often don't set training hours by level at all but by training quality. They will never increase a girls hours unless she is maximising the hours she currently has. If she is coming to training late, missing training, not putting in 100% all the time or appearing tired or burnt out at times they will not increase her hours.

I don't know what the situation is with your DD and I am not saying she mustn't be training hard. Just simply that giving everyone the same training hours because they are the same level is not necessarily any fairer than setting training hours based on individual needs.

 

[Sasha]

I can see how that is frustrating from your position. It just makes me wonder what the 'real' reason is. If it really is a superficial reason - a parent pressure or schedule manipulation thing to get more hours, then that does seem unfortunately 'unfair' or just casually thoughtless. In that case, if I were you, and you're sure you want one or both DDs at that high of hours at this point in time, then start your friendly lobbying, credit card in hand

I do notice that our gym has made some flexible accommodations, specifically for families with more than one gymnast, which usually seem cool and generous of the gym, but could potentially tick someone off who might look at it as an unfair advantage. I don't know of any extra hour accommodations here, though - just kids training with a level higher or mixed group on one or two days. I also see higher level kids train with a lower level group on certain days due to class timing. Not a lot, but a few. So maybe this part is common?

I guess there is always someone, somewhere, getting more training hours than your or my DD, and very likely scoring better as a result. I think the hardest part is the 'secrecy', whether intentional or unintentional, that leaves you wondering what your gymmie is missing out on to not be invited to X or Y. If decisions were out in the open all the time, at least you have somewhere to start the conversation...

Hope you get a resolution to your concerns!

 

[kandkfunk]

Does this happen at other gyms? Yes. Is it fair? It really depends on the situation. Does it sometimes cause hurt feelings? Yes.

At my DD's original gym, most of the girls in her level (old level 4) were singled out to participate in extra training for TOPS. I think this was when TOPS was a fairly new program (If my memory serves me correctly) and they only added 2 extra hours of training per week. My DD was not invited. Should she have been invited? Nope. Did it still hurt both our feelings? Yes. I knew that she wasn't a good candidate for the training, but it hurt her that she was "left out" and that, in turn, was hard on me. But, the bottom line was that she would not have done well with the class and it would not have helped her training. It was my job to help her understand what was happening, deal with and find a way to still work toward her goals in this crazy sport.

Not everything in life is fair. That's a very important lesson for our kids to learn and us parents to remember. It's sometimes hard to hold mama bear back when we feel like our kids are being slighted. However, some 8 years later, I can tell you that only 1 of those girls singled out for extra training is still in gymnastics. And, my daughter is right there with her at the same level. These things have a way of working themselves out and sometimes no amount of inquiring or prodding will change your DDs course in this sport. Your girls are both still young and keeping the practice hours lower at this age may increase their longevity in the sport.

That's not to say don't ask about the extra training. Just be prepared for the response you may get and do your best to help your DDs process the information you receive.

Good luck!

 

[beamer]

In terms of "inequality in the gym" all I can say is, "Get used to it!"

kandkfunk has it all right in her response (above). The truth is that this sort of thing happens all the time in life...whether at school (your little Susie is chosen for honors math and mine is not), sports (your Susie made the travel soccer team and mine didn't), college (your Susie got into Harvard and mine didn't), work (your Susie got a promotion and mind didn't).

It's a drag for young kids in the gymnastics world, but also a (usually) gentle preparation for life.

My DD is in the same boat as kandkfunk's and accepts her lot because she loves gymnastics, her teammates and her coaches. Her gym does what it can to soften the blow of making the hard choices about whom to move when, whom to devote more training time to, etc. The coaches try to be sensitive to the needs/feelings of all the girls, but the reality is that it is always clear who the stars are. This is life!