WAG Is this the norm for training in the TOPs, Hopes & Elite Community???

[myeyeson_u]

And Bog, I wish I could say I agree w/ you. But I dont. But for those who are genuine w/ the well wishes, thanks.

I do read a lot on here to get answers to questions I may have. So I'm certain there is a wealth of info and knowledge on here. I never asked anything about the elite training in itself. I asked about something that was done and if it was the norm for girls doing this type of training in that community. But people are volunteering info that has absolutely nothing to do w/ what was asked because the word elite is in the subj line. Free world though, right?!

 

[bogwoppit]

And Bog, I wish I could say I agree w/ you. But I dont.

Agree with me about what?

Nobody has to agree with anyone about anything here, they just have to be civil whilst they disagree.

 

[gasrgoose]

But people are volunteering info that has absolutely nothing to do w/ what was asked because the word elite is in the subj line.

Yes that is partially correct. I think it has more to do with that it says "TOPS, HOPES, & Elite community" as if they are all lumped together.

 

[myeyeson_u]

Agree w/ you on you saying everyone wishes my daughter well. Don't agree w/ that. But that is my opinion.

 

[lovofu]

Age is not usually an indicator, but in gymnastics it is a huge one. Being 10 years old and never having competed optionals to me is a massive indicator.

Check out Sophia Groth on youtube, watch out her videos from L5 and through the levels. That is what I expect to see, that quality of gymnastics and that progression.

If she is happy at her new gym, then let her be. Certainly not my style of coaching, but then I am done with gym for my kids and I see things differently.



Mod note - Be careful with the name calling though. Troll is not a nice name to use on the forums.

Thanks for the nice comments about Sophia. For the OP, she was a TOPS A member 2 years (injured the third) and has been blessed by many different coaching styles. She spent some time early on in a punishment based gym and it didn't blend well with her quite intense personality. She is thriving now in her positive, uplifting but strict gym. They care about the girls and the details and yet...no discussions or promises about "elite" etc. She is just doing her thing and in the end she will end up right where she is supposed to but I believe that she will be intact mentally, physically and look back on her journey with her head high.

 

[lovofu]

Quadqueen, girl bye! At the end of the day, my inquiry was never about her aspirations. And age is no indication of a individuals future. But looking at the amount of your posts, you'd know that. Since you're on this thing religiously. And you've seen posts about this.

I also believe that if you are asking the questions you are asking that YOU aren't happy with the situation. Mom's intuition should be listened to.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Just see some of Sophia's videos and she is lovely, I will show my daughter tomorrow, she will love them.

 

[bogwoppit]

Agree w/ you on you saying everyone wishes my daughter well. Don't agree w/ that. But that is my opinion.

Wow. That is pretty harsh.

I have not seen any post here from any one wishing ill for your DD. If you have, and I have missed it, then use the report function on the post and the member will get a warning or a ban.

 

[gymmamae]

They care about the girls and the details and yet...no discussions or promises about "elite" etc. She is just doing her thing and in the end she will end up right where she is supposed to but I believe that she will be intact mentally, physically and look back on her journey with her head high

.

Wow! I cannot contribute to the original conversation, since my DD is only 9, training level 7, and may compete only half of the season due to a heel injury. This statement by Sophia's mom will stay with me, though. Providing our gymnasts with an environment that promotes their emotional well-being should be one of our main priorities in this sport.

 

[Blackie6]

Yikes! I bet that is Coach Vic Vickerman's gym! Run!

 

[SignHere]

Myeyeson_ u, As far as your original post. I was discussing training methods with a friend who's daughter is currently training in a well known " elite" gym ( has produced several Olympians) . Her daughter frequently has to climb the rope for infractions ( 5 rope climbs if late to practice) and has been sent out of practice for crying. There is a LOT of pressure to perform at meets on these girls, and the daughter is not even officially " elite track " , just Level 7 .
We think it has to do with building mental toughness.

In comparison, my DDs gym trains college track gymnasts, lots of rope climbs, too, and no crying tolerated as well, even for injuries, surprisingly. But the approach is a lot different.

My conclusion is that the Elites have to be very very tough and this is one way to see if they can handle the pressure. It's good you can observe practice, better if you can hear. You want to make sure there is no abuse going on, because that can happen. You just never know.

But you just can't tell after only a few days.

 

[gymgal]

my dd is not in an elite gym. They do have several L9-10s though, so not just a compulsory level gym either. the coaches typically do not use conditioning as punishment for missing skills. They may use conditioning for extreme attitudes, mental blocks, or lack of focus but that is really more to get them away from the event so they can refocus or calm down. The might also use it if they think it is going to help with that particular skill.

I would be cautious about your dd not wanting you to observe practice. She may not be telling you the whole truth - and that could go either way: harsher things may be happening that she doesn't want to reveal in fear that you may pull her from the gym; or she is not being entirely truthful about why she is getting the rope climbs. Either way, I would be there observing (since in your case it is permissible) or talking with the coach about expectations and consequences.

And for the record, I had no problem understanding your initial post and why you used the title you did. Obviously you were looking for input from parents who have BTDT in those types of gyms because their training styles can be very different from gyms who are training for lower goals. Your actual post was a little confusing when talking about all the gyms and what level gymnasts they have (which wasn't really needed for your question) so I think some posters just got stuck (some got really stuck) on trying to figure out if you were really in an elite style gym. As hard as it is sometimes, it is usually best to just ignore the posts that are not answering your question.

 

[Natasha]

I would question whether a coach that feels the need to resort to some of the things described by various posters in this thread, from constant rope climbing to "torture" ( described with surprising apathy), has the technical expertise and presence of mind to coach at a higher level, much less international elite level. These are highly technical skills. Rope climbing is a great skill, but it isn't highly technical or specific to giant techniques. If this is what the coach is resorting to in order to correct a relatively beginner giant, I'm not really sure you're on the right track.

Of course some people might say what if that's the only thing the child responds to. Then you're definitely not on the right track. Personally as a coach when a child doesn't care, I don't make them climb the rope or do anything else, I call them out on lack of effort and ask what their goal is and if they think they are doing what they need to do to reach that. Or I tell them to get off the bar until they can focus and not waste time. Rope climb is just a part of everyday practice, but I don't have time to be sending people over there 20 times a day. If they don't care enough that I had to torture them to get them to do basic things, I would tell their parents they aren't going anywhere, not that I'm training them for elite or even the next JO level.

If your question is whether this is normal, there are seemingly many coaches who subscribe to this kind of conditioning. Whether it's effective, who knows, guess it'll depend on the kid and their talent level to benefit from non specific and not highly technical coaching.

GymDog, thanks so much for this. You put into words what I was thinking, but I certainly didn't feel qualified to answer as I am not a coach (unless you count the 3year olds ) nor do I have a child training TOPS, hopes or elite or anything other than regular optionals. However, I was having a conversation with DD's coach recently in which we were talking about various philosophies and he shared that he realized early on his coaching career something that helped him set his philosophy. He shared observing intense coaches at a L10 meet yelling at their gymnasts and "tearing into them" for falling or messing up their routines. He said at that moment his thought was "do you think the girls wanted to mess up? Do you really think they went into the event thinking, gee I really want to fall? No, they of course want to do their best, but they are human and they will make mistakes and have bad days.
This discussion with my dd's coach was shortly after a bad meet. He didn't blame the girls. He took full responsibility, re-evaluated their training and switched gears to address some of the issues from the meet. Are the girls punished after a bad meet? absolutely not. However, they might be working extra hard on certain skills or doing some specific conditioning or they may be put in situations to "put pressure on" in practice (i.e. yesterday they had to stick a beam routine that they "showed" or do 50 releve walks).

 

[shelovestoflip]

To the OP….I've read through the thread though at this point forget how old your daughter is. 10/11, I think. And currently Level 6 but 8 next season? Scoring out of 7?

You need to trust your gut and watch a few practices, even if your daughter doesn't want you to. She's 10….you are in charge!

As gym parents, we have no idea what tomorrow will bring, never mind next season or two years down the road. Injuries happen, teen life happens and girls decide they want more than 25 hours in the gym for the rest of their HS days!

It's admirable that your daughter and you want the elite path. As many have said, she is 'late' the elite game so I would personally focus on health and happiness as a priority. A happy, healthy gymnast will go far in life!

And reading the posts makes me realize I have NO IDEA what happens at my daughter's gym! No clue if they rope climb/condition for 'punishment'…no idea what goes on, actually!

My daughter is 15 and a second year Level 9. She's at a great gym and she is emotionally happy and healthy! She does well at meets and counts her teammates and coaches as her 'second family'. So, I have to assume the gym is doing something right!

Keep in mind, it's a journey. Your daughter is young. Gymnastics is the journey. She should enjoy it!

 

[Natasha]

To the OP…
#1 I agree with Gymgal, please observe practice. I know the general mantra on CB is to not watch, but there are many times when it is appropriate and even necessary to watch. Your daughter being at a new gym is one of those times. Do not just hand over trust to her new coaches and gym, trust needs to be earned.
#2 I have no idea what is typical in the tops, hopes, elite communities as all I know about those environments and gyms I have learned on CB However, I think the more important question for you to ask yourself is not is the rope climb punishment the norm for those communities, but is that the norm you want for your daughter's development? I have heard and seen too many instances of parents putting up with emotionally abusive coaching by justifying it as "this is what is needed to help them be mentally tough...or I know it sounds harsh, but if she wants to be elite this is the price…" Parents seem to put up with a lot of behavior from coaches that they would never accept from a teacher or other adult. I am not saying this is happening here as you (and therefore we) do not have enough information yet about what is going on at your dd's gym. Only more observation (of the gym and your daughter) will provide that information.
#3 Trust your mommy gut. There was a reason you posted the question.
#4 I can't "like" gymdog's response enough. She had some great points about what to look for.

 

[justanothergymmom]

If you are concerned about the way your child is being disciplined or treated at practice, you should definitely keep your eyes and ears wide open, and observe since you are permitted to. You are obviously uneasy with this for a reason if you came here to ask about it. It shouldn’t much matter if it is the “norm” or not, and it doesn't matter if she is training elite, hopes, TOPs or level 5. She is a child first and a gymnast second. Even if she seems okay with it right now, it doesn't mean that it is acceptable treatment. Some training methods that are tolerable in the short term become intolerable over time, and can push the most enthusiastic gymnast over the edge. I am not trying to be an alarmist, just a realist, having been there, done that. In my opinion 20 rope climbs for falling on skills that aren’t part of her current mastered skillset is an excessive punishment.

My own children trained in an "elite" program similar sounding to the one your daughter is in (with respect to having no proven track record of qualifying US elites… which is why I put elite in quotes). Some of the coaches there employed some mentally and emotionally destructive methods to try to "push" the girls. It ended in near disaster for my talented girls, with them almost quitting the sport. Thankfully, we pulled them from that gym before it was too late.

I can’t even begin to tell you what a mistake it can be to attempt elite training with coaches who don’t have recent experience or track record…but I will save that for another thread.

 

[flippin out]

Thanks for the nice comments about Sophia. For the OP, she was a TOPS A member 2 years (injured the third) and has been blessed by many different coaching styles. She spent some time early on in a punishment based gym and it didn't blend well with her quite intense personality. She is thriving now in her positive, uplifting but strict gym. They care about the girls and the details and yet...no discussions or promises about "elite" etc. She is just doing her thing and in the end she will end up right where she is supposed to but I believe that she will be intact mentally, physically and look back on her journey with her head high.

Beautifully said!

 

[Faith]

Ive said this before. There's no such thing as the "best" way to coach, run a program, a gym, produce an elite.

There's the best way for your child.

Even if what you describe is in common practice, and works for child x, doesn't mean child y won't feel bullied and belittled. Child y may flourish at a nurturing program, child x may feel lost without the rigid discipline.

Keep an eye out, watch practice, talk to your child. My child knows if she's unhappy with her coach, she can train with another at the same club. If she's unhappy with the club, we can look for another. If she's unhappy with the sport, guess what, we'll look for something else. She won't have failed, won't upset anyone, it's just sometimes you get on with a person, sometimes you don't. These kids spend so much time with these coaches, they need to fit, and both enjoy working together.

And what loveofu said- each child's journey is their own.

 

[gracyomalley]

simply chiming in about watching practice for a while to try to get the full picture. Gym changes are hard - and it takes some time to figure out what will work for your kid - and what will work now may not later. At 9 my DD was training l7 also, and her HC thought she had a great chance at college gym. She liked to be pushed, was fearless, hard working, took corrections great, etc. We are not in an area of "scoring out". She did well at L7 but hit puberty, some fears and many self confidence issues. I was told to stay out of gym by her previous HC. I did. She was miserable and learned nothing for 18 months, although she won tons of medals. I had no idea what was going on. This was the only gym in town to have produced successful L10/college girls, and had one kid they were thinking of pushing to elite (had started gym at about 8-9 and was ready for L10 at age 13 - so much older than usual - sort of like your DD? - and this kid clearly had something special, which your DD likely has, and mine not like that at all....)

Only by switching gyms, watching practices, speaking often with coaches, etc did I figure out how much of the issue was DD and how much was her coaching...about 50/50 I'd say in retrospect. Yes, there were multiple "bad coaching decisions" - but DD also changed as she grew up a bit, and the combo led to stagnation. Only after taking several months completely off and having a HC that put her in charge is DD figuring out what she really wants...

I realize this is not your DD story at this point - and I certainly hope it won't be (it stinks to watch your kids dream change and watch their confidence fizzle while knowing they are still the same kid/gymnast they always were - but its a big part of this sport - which is why you get lots of posters totally overeacting to the elite thing).

I'm sorry if things have seemed a bit harsh form various posters here. I do know that I have learned a lot here for all three kids - mostly very helpful - and often a kind reminder of the reality of gymnastics - I can now compare my kids training, skills, and "talent" much more accurately to that of other regions/states, etc. I am much more aware of issues/safety/training techniques, etc - and can help my kids when they hit snags...whether it be how to tape wrist splints in my L7 son, or how to explain vestibular issues to my training L8 DD....I also know that best case scenerio, they are likely to make it to the highest levels of JO - but that will be it for my kids - and they'll only do that if they keep enjoying the journey and wanting to push themselves to overcome all the obstacles.

Rope climbs are used for being late, not listening, etc at their gym. DD has (rarely) been sent out of gym for crying - not for injury or painful fall - but for overly emotional days. This has been a totally new phenomenon this year - mostly related to coaches leaving (she's lost 7 coaches in 10 months - trust is a big issue right now), and her having a tough day without them. I fully support the HC in this - and when it happened I spoke with her to get her side of the story (which was much more straight forward than DDs).

Presently, HC has DD and another kid who transferred from the "old" gym having been told they were L8s but without the appropriate training to really succeed there work together to push each other to try the skills they are expected to have for L8-10. One option has been "giving" each other rope climbs if they won't go for things - Being as DD took over 2 months off and then ***** footed about for another 2 months, and the other girls strength is holding her back, its a win win situation!! I think the idea is accountability to self - not coach! To me its a great idea - but it may not work.

Consequences for missed skills, not going for something, falls, bent legs, etc are quite useful if they are consequences that will help the situation. Only by being an active participant in evaluating your DD new gym can you see if the consequence will help solve the issue, or is just "punishment". Self-discipline is important in higher level gym (even my kids levels) for safety and progression - which therefor lead to enjoyment and learning from what is, after all, for most kids, a sport they do until they grow up. I am sure that its even more key if a child is really shooting for more than JO level 10 (to avoid all the nomeclature). It's teaching - you don't spank a kid for spelling a word wrong - but you may make them write it a bunch, or work on phonics (ie rope climb/fundamentals)....

Good luck and I hope CB can be helpful for you.

 

[gymislife]

CB

I feel like I have to clear the air because many things in the original post was not clear nor true. I read every post and can tell you I read good things. Nevertheless, the perception of the truth is foggy. I as a coach of the gymnast trying out at my gym or any of my 11 athletes was assigned 5 rope climbs for every skill missed nor will they ever. The assignment was 5 series in 5 min. Every series that you are short at the end of 5 minutes you have 1 rope climb, I do different activities to keep pressure on the girls, however everyone including the DD of the try out finished except 1 gymnast who only had 3 rope climbs. Next, the gymnast that split the beam was consoled first by the beam coach. Then I as the head coach explained to the gymnast that if you do things like, straddling your legs while going for a roundoff dismount, you are going to split the beam and that a silly thing to do. Yes, I said no more cry after she had her moment of tears. I know I would have cried!!! Third, I had 3 bars and 5 side stations why is everyone standing around the chalk bucket and missing bar routines 2 days before a meet? With 5 min remaining in practice I stated degrip go to the rope and give me 20 in actuality the girls never got to 10. Because we only had a few minutes left. My rules are simple! I don't mind parents watching because I have nothing to hide. I'm very loud because my voice is deep so everything said can be heard plus I have to talk over a radio, class coaches and children. Finally, all of my gymnast are in a happy, healthy environment that's why they come to my gym because I care. I want every kid to leave my program either being college or just done with the sport saying I remember that coach he was hard, but he treated me right! Like I have with my old coaches. I do feel if there was a issues it should have been brought to my attention immediately instead to a forum like this. But I will handle this situation Monday. Thank you!!!