Coaches Kips! (And kip trainers)

[jpow]

Hey all,

I have a really talented young new level 4 team and we're still struggling on kips. Out of my team of five, three have their kip inconsistently, and two haven't gotten it at all. When the three who have it inconsistently do it, they do a super bent arm, muscle up version. I have one that when she doesn't make it, she'll just muscle up and continue! One of the ones who doesn't have it doesn't bring her feet up fast enough, and the other shoots her feet down and ends up pushing away from the bar.

We just got a kip trainer, and I have been using it in this class as we don't really have a lot of coaches and I need stations the girls can do basically by themselves. The kip trainer is this, btw
The New Kip Trainer Video.wmv - YouTube

A couple of coaches came over and told me that the kip trainer was bad because it teaches the girls to throw their legs down. Well, my first question is if the kip trainer is worth it in the long run or if I should abandon it for other drills.

My second question is I need other drills anyway! When my group is at bars, it will either be just me or with one other coach with a possible 8 girls (5 lv fours, 2 lv 5s, 1 level 6). I am going through warmups and routines on our competition bars, we have the bouncing cast handstand trainer, a floor bar, a single bar where our kip trainer is, and then they will try kips on their own on our non competition bar set. What could I be doing to get these kips that would be the most successful for my girls?

 

[bogwoppit]

Did you llook at member JAO's kip videos, long and packed with drills, tips and basics? Here is a link to part one, The Kipping Process Part I - YouTube there are two parts. Totally worth watching.

 

[stargazer]

I like the kip trainer because it gives them the motion of a straight-arm kip that goes over the bar, but I agree it seems to teach pushing the legs down into the trainer versus sliding the shins up the bar. Glide swing to hold the toes at the bar is a great drill for strength, and my personal favourite is as follows: Get a block and place it on the opposite side of the low bar so that the athlete can hold themselves in a front support position with their toes just on or barely off the block. (So if they mount the low bar facing the high bar, the block will be on the ground in between the low and high bar). Have them hang from the low bar with their hands, toes on the block, knees bent. From here, they push their legs straight, flick their wrists and perform the second half of the kip action ending in front support with their feet slightly in front of them. This is great for working the holding-the legs-in-front part to encourage proper shaping and prepare for casting out of the kip, and if you keep the block at a good distance they won't have to bend their arms. Once that's easy, move the block farther out/get a shorter block so they have to do more work.

I really hope that made sense, please let me know if it didn't. Good luck to your girls and their kips! Tell them to watch their toes also, if they're letting their heads fall back it will be very hard to get them over the bar properly.

ETA: Ooh, it's at 4:57 in the video bog posted. If that drill is too easy, move the block a bit, and have them practice casting out of it right away.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

STOP doing routines and do sets of DROP KIPS spotted only on the way up. And STOP letting them bend arms. Also sets of kip casts, SPOTTED. Butt bombs are good as well. Drills are great for strength and shifting but nothing substitutes for actual kips. Finally, plan on scratching them from bars in the first meet, until you get locked arms. That will motivate them as well.
My motto is, you can catch up on routines but you can't catch up on strength, so get busy.

 

[gymdog]

I think that the kip trainer stations are a good introductory drill, to gain the straight arm strength needed to pull up and over the bar. But there are a lot of more specific drills. After they master this drill, I agree it would be best to move on to drop kips.

 

[twisting007bigflip]

STOP doing routines and do sets of DROP KIPS spotted only on the way up. And STOP letting them bend arms. Also sets of kip casts, SPOTTED. Butt bombs are good as well. Drills are great for strength and shifting but nothing substitutes for actual kips. Finally, plan on scratching them from bars in the first meet, until you get locked arms. That will motivate them as well.
My motto is, you can catch up on routines but you can't catch up on strength, so get busy.

What are "butt bombs" ?? Sounds like something my kids would laugh at but would love to do (because they're called "butt bombs")

 

[Deleted member 14190]

What are "butt bombs" ?? Sounds like something my kids would laugh at but would love to do (because they're called "butt bombs")

=

You need a low bar, (the lower the easier to set up), a PRE SCHOOL spring board and appropriate boxes (how many depends on how low or high your bar is).
Put a box or boxes under the low bar so the box is about a foot and a half under the bar. Place the box so the front edge is directly under the bar. Put the PRE SCHOOL spring board on the box about a foot or so back (size depending on size of kids). Have a child get up into support on the bar with good shape, drop on the springboard with locked elbows and bounce back up to support with locked elbows. butt bombs.

 

[BlairBob]

Kip trainers are basically just a busy station. On the one hand it means you don't need to spot straddled/pike uprises. Glide out, come back and uprise. That means I can spot actual kips and they get more straight work besides jumping straight arms to support.

Snapping the toes back to the bar to create butt swing backwards is critical besides keeping your ankles in that compressed V position so you swing back as fast as possible, then PUSH down as your butt starts to lift on the ascending phase.

Glide, Taco (V), butt swing, PUSH down to support.

Another drill I used to like to do was from a wiggle/mini-tap uprise to support. I was told these are called "Russian" kips but basically it's a back uprise from a tap/wiggle. Good for strength to like a straight arm muscle-up.

 

[jpow]

Update after todays practice,

I didn't do the kip trainer today. All I coached today was kips, I'd spot every other one and we'd do five total for about five cycles on bars today. They also did their normal bounce hs and floor bar drills, and then I made the "butt bombs" station to much acclaim from our owner and a couple of higher ranked coaches (thanks for that drill!). The girls really loved it! We also added a conditioning station today to focus on more strength.

And, one of my girls became consistent with her kip today! It was bent arms, but she made the first 4 out of 5 in the last three sets we did. Hoping she can keep the skill over the weekend. I have another who made one today that hasn't made it in the last week or two, but it was only one. Another has almost learned it with straight arms, which I've never taught it clear to straight arms before and it's just almost there, I feel next week if we continue just drilling kips she'll get it.

The last two are still rather far away from the kip, but I feel both of their problems are strength so I've been trying to focus as much extra time to more conditioning and preps for these kips.

Our first meet is September 7th, so I am hoping after blasting kips all next week to go back to gradual work on routines. Would that be good? Or do I need to spend more time either way?

 

[gymdog]

If they don't have kips by next week or so they should scratch bars on September 7th. The level 4 routine is too hard for a child who doesn't have a strong kip. They will not be able to do well enough unspotted to make the score worth it, and if they use adrenaline to go bigger at the meet on unfamiliar bars they could slip off the high bar. It's not worth it. If they're just scraping by, wait until the second meet.

 

[Nico]

I may be a bit late with my reaction as the thread moved on (I'm only member since today).
First thing when I saw this kip trainer is that gymnasts would be thought to drop their feet and be far away from the bar.
It can be a helpful tool to teach them how to bring their shoulders up and to the front, but as mentioned, I think that there are better exercises for it.
Another good exercise is to let the girls do their kip in the parallel bars, from a little swing in V-hang (I don’t know how you call it) to rear support onto a panel mat, placed over the bars. In that manner they cannot drop the feet to early.
And indeed, as gymdog mentioned, if they can’t kip this week, I wouldn’t recommend trying them in a month in competition. It won’t be stable enough. I think they should be training 1/3th to half routines by now…

Good luck!

 

[jpow]

Scratching them on bars is not an option for us.

Update from yesterday - we've still done nothing but kips with our girls struggling with them. The one who got it on Thursday did hers a lot yesterday. The drill station we did was the one where the crouch under the bar and jump with straight arms to support, working on wrists and leaning and pushing. Two of our stations were strength stations as well. Another one of the girls got one kip as well, but none of her others. She's gotten kips before and at the last optional meet in May she got both low and high bar kips. One of my girls who has never done a kip got really close, and I feel like she's been improving enough to get it for our meet.

So in total, they are getting a lot better already! We'll finish kips this week and then starting next work half kips and half routines.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Forget the routines for now, continue on the kip casts, drop kips and second halves. I seriously would't bother with routines until a week prior to the first meet, (since you cannot scratch them). Don't panic, just stay on course. Focus on state, and work completely through the first couple of meets.

 

[jpow]

I did find out today that only two out of my five level 4s are going to this first meet, and one is one with the kip. I don't like how we are going to have a small showing but it gives me more time because our next meet isn't until Sept 28.

 

[jpow]

Update on the kips, another girl got hers on Monday, so 3/5 have kips now! We had a station set up that was a stack of blocks to our single rail, so it would be like high bar kips and they tried those on their own and that's how she got hers.