Lackluster Dance

[triptwister]

There are many threads here on Chalk Bucket that discuss the age old complaint about floor routines with lackluster dance. Tumbling and acrobatic elements seem to out shadow dance elements. Passion and emotion is devoted to to hard tumbling and the dance elements receive lip service.

Gymnasts are taught techniques that directly oppose the techniques normally used by dancers. To a gymnast, concentration, alignment, squared hips. squared shoulders, knees turned down instead of out, and other fine points are important for consistency and balance. Especially on the balance beam.

A gymnast's dance style in a floor routine usually fall into keeping with the techniques used to teach balance and poise on the balance beam. What works well on the balance beam works just as well on the floor.

How then do we think out of the box? What should we do to release our gymnasts from the dead pan robot suits they wear? I think the clues are contained in the following video.


[YOUTUBE]HUEuXhK5m2o[/YOUTUBE],

Smile, change technique from robot to human, look like you are enjoying yourself and having fun, and connect with your audience. The tumbling and acrobatics does not need to be spectacular in order for the gymnast to be entertaining.

 

[MdGymMom01]

That was a great routine! I really enjoyed watching that--it was fun, entertaining and she really looked like she enjoyed herself. I think that by the time that gymnasts get to the optional levels, they are already training a possible 16 hrs in the gym which leaves little time for dance training. So, you will have good gymnasts by level 7, not good dancers. I totally agree with you in that the gymnasts that do have good dance technique and capture the audience's attention are the more enjoyable routines, for me anyway.

For my dd, floor is probably her weakest event tumbling skill-wise, but she makes up for it with her dance, attitude and her smile--she really loves performing and she just has so much fun out on the floor. I truly think that gives her an edge over her competition who totally out tumble her.

 

[10.0]

I don't get it. I come from a strong dance and gymnastics background and that performance looked like every other cheesy stupid competition routine I have ever seen. Yes she is a good tumbler for being a dancer and she has a cheesy smile on her face. Big deal. The routine looked just like a Toddlers and Tiaras pageant routine, there was nothing real and fabulous about it in my onion. I don't get what we are supposed to learn from that.

 

[gymluvr33]

I enjoyed it, she had a cute routine and she looked directly at the audience during some of it, making it easier to connect with the audience, but most importantly she just looked like she was enjoying herself.

 

[Megz]

It also depends on your music. I learned, during my time as a figure skater, that your facial expressions and movements have to match your music. It's good to be showy and smiley with an upbeat song (especially if the music chosen represents the gymnast as a whole), but sometimes the slow-paced, dramatic music works best with a serious tone.

I understand your meaning, and you're right - it is more enjoyable to watch a happy outgoing floor routine. The one thing I want to say is that some gymnasts just aren't like that. I couldn't imagine, say, Nastia Liukin performing the same way Shawn Johnson does on floor (and vice versa). It just has to match the particular gymnast. No good forcing smiles to those with a different personality, it just comes out looking forced and uncomfortable.

Edited to add: I do know what you mean though. Taking the example of Sandra Izbasa's FX at Beijing. Ah-mazing. Personality plus! Let's not also forget Khorkina... now SHE was a performer

 

[gymgirlsammi]

your right floor needs to fit your personality like someone who is flexible wants to have things that show flexibilty and someone who has great strength should show it they should have a flexible preson that may or may not strong things same with strong people

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

Although it was a really good routine I think comparing that dance rountine to a gymnastics floor routine is like comparing apples to oranges they are both fruit but different. While dance is more showy gymnastics shows more power and athletic ability. I do agree some gymnasts have more of stage prescence like Mattie Larson. My daughters have done both one prefers gymnastics and the other prefers dance I think they are both great activities for their self confidence and for keeping active.

 

[triptwister]

Word of note...

http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/technical-talk/9277-does-smiling-really-matter.html

If you haven't seen the above thread then please take a hard look now. Perhaps we should render unto dance what dance is due and give the rest a hard look.

 

[Linsul]

Perhaps we should render unto dance what dance is due and give the rest a hard look.

What does that mean exactly?

 

[triptwister]

Hi Linsul. Sorry about the confusion.

Its a pun and a metaphor at the same time with layered meanings. I'm aiming the statement at adults who arbitrarily choose to sign off and excuse lackluster dance in gymnastics. I believe that we are better than that. We ought to be able to teach animation, levity, passion, emotion, expression, communication, and all that dance ought to be so that a gymnast is even better than a dancer at their own craft.

The word of note comment is asking the viewer to devote their attention to an important or notable statement. However, the statement is actually an entire thread. On the surface the viewer reads the title of the thread which upon first glance the viewer may believe is the point that the word of note is drawing attention to. Therefore the viewer reads the title with the intensity of reading a word of note. Once the reader discerns that the word of note on the surface is not actually the word of note but rather the title of a thread then the reader is left with unfinished business to read the thread. With the intensity of thinking that the title is the word of note the viewer is tricked into putting much weight on reading the title. In the original opening statement defining this thread I pointed out that one factor that may improve dance in gymnastics is to smile. I drive this point home by making it look like a word of note. Little does the unsuspecting viewer know how many people agree with my view about smiling. What the viewer is about to read in the thread is an affirmation of me being right without me being a part of the conversation. I'm right because they say so. Even if they weren't defending me intentionally. That thread defends my opinion.

A hard look is a pun. It means that you can look at something with great concentration and study. It also can mean that a hard look is a stern, gritty, menacing, serious, brawny looking expression on someone's face. Both apply so it doesn't matter which way you read the pun. Hopefully a discerning adult will perceive both meanings of the pun. I am asking people to read the thread carefully and thoughtfully. At the same time I am being facetious by telling the people who think that a gymnast cannot be taught to be expressive in dance that they can use the same dead pan robotic face to read the thread that bad dancing gymnasts have.
Hence, the render unto dance what dance is due. In other words do all the things that dance requires in order for dance to be everything it is meant to be. Do what it takes to make dance right.

The rest of a floor routine that is not dance can go ahead and be performed with a robot face, or stern look, or grimace. Again a double meaning because from the gymnast's perspective they are the one's performing the hard look. At the same time I am asking the viewer to examine and analyze the rest of the floor routine that is not dance with the same thoughtfulness that dance ought to receive.

Like poetry, a few words can be worth thousands.

Thanks for asking Linsul.

 

[gymnastbeth]

Hi Linsul. Sorry about the confusion.

Its a pun and a metaphor at the same time with layered meanings. I'm aiming the statement at adults who arbitrarily choose to sign off and excuse lackluster dance in gymnastics. I believe that we are better than that. We ought to be able to teach animation, levity, passion, emotion, expression, communication, and all that dance ought to be so that a gymnast is even better than a dancer at their own craft.

The word of note comment is asking the viewer to devote their attention to an important or notable statement. However, the statement is actually an entire thread. On the surface the viewer reads the title of the thread which upon first glance the viewer may believe is the point that the word of note is drawing attention to. Therefore the viewer reads the title with the intensity of reading a word of note. Once the reader discerns that the word of note on the surface is not actually the word of note but rather the title of a thread then the reader is left with unfinished business to read the thread. With the intensity of thinking that the title is the word of note the viewer is tricked into putting much weight on reading the title. In the original opening statement defining this thread I pointed out that one factor that may improve dance in gymnastics is to smile. I drive this point home by making it look like a word of note. Little does the unsuspecting viewer know how many people agree with my view about smiling. What the viewer is about to read in the thread is an affirmation of me being right without me being a part of the conversation. I'm right because they say so. Even if they weren't defending me intentionally. That thread defends my opinion.

A hard look is a pun. It means that you can look at something with great concentration and study. It also can mean that a hard look is a stern, gritty, menacing, serious, brawny looking expression on someone's face. Both apply so it doesn't matter which way you read the pun. Hopefully a discerning adult will perceive both meanings of the pun. I am asking people to read the thread carefully and thoughtfully. At the same time I am being facetious by telling the people who think that a gymnast cannot be taught to be expressive in dance that they can use the same dead pan robotic face to read the thread that bad dancing gymnasts have.

There is a statement in the New Testament that Jesus said in Mark 12:17 that says..."And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Which means that we should comply with the laws of the land in order to be right with the rule of the land we live in. Also that we should comply with what God wants in order to be right with God. I took this manner of speaking and added power to my statement by drawing a parallel to this Bible verse. In order for dance to be right then it needs certain requirements to be met. Hence, the render unto dance what dance is due. In other words do all the things that dance requires in order for dance to be everything it is meant to be. Do what it takes to make dance right.

The rest of a floor routine that is not dance can go ahead and be performed with a robot face, or stern look, or grimace. Again a double meaning because from the gymnast's perspective they are the one's performing the hard look. At the same time I am asking the viewer to examine and analyze the rest of the floor routine that is not dance with the same thoughtfulness that dance ought to receive.

Like poetry, a few words can be worth thousands.

Thanks for asking Linsul.

...I may just be acting like a gymnast who hates to dance, but is dance so important in a floor routine? I mean yes, it should be payed attention to, and it can make it better, but I feel like the skills should come first. Purely my bias of not liking dance speaking, but hey, I hardly have great dance in my routine, and I don't do too shabby(?)

 

[MdGymMom01]

Trip--it's ironic how you apologize for the confusion, yet proceed to further twist and turn your words into a more convoluted menagerie of...well, confusion!!!! Dude--I don't think ANYONE understood a word of what you just said!

And I quote Billy Madison's principal from "Billy Madison":

"Mr. Triptwister, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." LOL

 

[gymnastbeth]

Trip--it's ironic how you apologize for the confusion, yet proceed to further twist and turn your words into a more convoluted menagerie of...well, confusion!!!! Dude--I don't think ANYONE understood a word of what you just said!

THANK YOU! I wasn't sure if it was just me!

 

[triptwister]

Hi MdGymMom01...your lack is my want. We share angst at opposite ends with tantamount frustration.

I'm glad you enjoyed the video at the beginning of this thread. I'm also happy to hear that your DD is a great dancer. I can appreciate that a lot. You and I see eye to eye on the merits of a dance worthy routine.

I think in pictures, metaphors, similes, parables, symbols, etc. It comes natural to me and sometimes people notice and make comments to me in person. Especially when I don't realize that I'm doing it during an in-person conversation.

If you tell someone that they look hard then it usually means that they look like they want to fight. Or that they are angry. Or that they look brawny or muscular or strong. It could mean that they look like stone. Hard without emotion. There are several ways to apply the metaphor.

But you can also use the same term of hard and mean to do something in earnest. With great resolve and perseverance. Such as to look hard at something. Or to think hard. Or to work hard. Work hard is a common term yet have you really thought about what you are saying? Hard labor usually means a grueling physical job done with the hands and body. It usually apples to forced labor such as in a prison. But the term "hard labor" does not say anything about working hard in an office. Yet you might hear a secretary borrow the metaphor to describe her job as hard labor even though she does not do hard labor.

If a gymnast looks hard when they perform dance in a floor routine MdGymMom01, then it probably is not befitting to the gymnast no matter what the meaning is.

Bottom line MdGymMom01 is that as coaches and gymnasts we can do much better at developing dance expertise.

Gymnastbeth makes an excellent point and brings up another issue about worth. The powers that be in gymnastics should make it worthwhile to dance great in a floor routine. The rules in my opinion should be rewritten so that dance requirements are expanded and spelled out in great detail. Dance should reflect the scoring requirements that merits having great dance in a floor routine.

I feel that all other things being equal, the routine with better dance should score higher in a qualitative, tangible way.

 

[gymnastbeth]

Gymnastbeth makes an excellent point and brings up another issue about worth. The powers that be in gymnastics should make it worthwhile to dance great in a floor routine. The rules in my opinion should be rewritten so that dance requirements are expanded and spelled out in great detail. Dance should reflect the scoring requirements that merits having great dance in a floor routine.

:expressionless: If dance (besides leaps, jumps, etc.) was a greater, and more important requirement, I have a feeling I would have stopped gymnastics a looong time ago. I think that's what makes gymnastics great, you can be a good dancer and showcase that, but if you aren't you can show off your other skills.

 

[triptwister]

It should begin in compulsories. Coaches that teach floor exercise should be more than tumbling connoisseurs. Coaches should be well versed and competent dance instructors. The rules should spell out comprehensive detailed dance requirements and then allow for stylization and reward gymnasts for excellent dance efforts.

How can we expect to develop great dancers if we wait until level 7 before the gymnast even starts to really dance through connections? Its absurd.

By the time a gymnast gets to level 7 they should have been taught to dance well and not have to excuse themselves for being level 7 at tumbling and level 1 in dance. If they can learn gymnastics then they can learn a sashay tourchete and make it look good.

 

[Linsul]

It should begin in compulsories. Coaches that teach floor exercise should be more than tumbling connoisseurs. Coaches should be well versed and competent dance instructors. The rules should spell out comprehensive detailed dance requirements and then allow for stylization and reward gymnasts for excellent dance efforts.

How can we expect to develop great dancers if we wait until level 7 before the gymnast even starts to really dance through connections? Its absurd.

By the time a gymnast gets to level 7 they should have been taught to dance well and not have to excuse themselves for being level 7 at tumbling and level 1 in dance. If they can learn gymnastics then they can learn a sashay tourchete and make it look good.

You and I agree on this. I think anyone conditioned and stretched as much as a gymnast is capable of making the dance look great if they try. If it's done too late it can be an uphill battle. I've coached for over 10 years at 3 gyms, and only my current one has a history of caring about dance. No surprise that it's this gym that has national team members in my book, or that the other 2 gyms started caring about dance once the world ooohed and ahhhhd over Nastia.

From a gymnasts pov, all I can say is the ones who aren't 'into' the dance aspect might be if they had greater input over music selection. Also that dedicated dance time over their compulsory years would give them the experience to critique and possibly amend choreography in their optional routines. Assuming their coaches were open to it of course, which ideally they would be. A sense of ownership over the routine as a whole would do good things for their outlook.

 

[bogwoppit]

Just a small mod note.

Can we please try to keep the language at a level that even the 13 year olds can understand, and even more so for our foreign members. Simple English and simple metaphors will keep everyone smiling and getting along!

Also no religious or political references please. Those two things are def not for the CB. I will edit out the quote as the three hour edit limit has passed.

 

[MdGymMom01]

Thank you for your post Bog. I was going to say the same thing but coming from a member who often reads and participates.

I just wanted to add this:

Trip--you have very interesting threads and can be enjoyed by all but I find it increasingly frustrating when I can't understand what you are saying. This is not a creative writing or interpretive writing forum. This a gymnastics forum for all ages like Bog said and many people may be as equally frustrated by your writing style.

Thanks for listening and hopefully no offense is taken in my earlier post.

 

[bribri514]

Thank you for your post Bog. I was going to say the same thing but coming from a member who often reads and participates.

I just wanted to add this:

Trip--you have very interesting threads and can be enjoyed by all but I find it increasingly frustrating when I can't understand what you are saying. This is not a creative writing or interpretive writing forum. This a gymnastics forum for all ages like Bog said and many people may be as equally frustrated by your writing style.

Thanks for listening and hopefully no offense is taken in my earlier post.

Agree. I'm sorry trip, english is my first language and sometimes I struggle and I can't really understand what you are saying. Thanks!