Women Level 6 Bars Dismount

[DisMom]

Ok, so the dismount for L6 bars is a tuck fly away...and gymnasts can do a layout fly away if they choose. No difference in scoring.

So my daughter got her tuck fly away back in October. Perfect since her first meet was in Early December. BUT her coaches have made the decision that ALL of the 6s are going to do the layout fly away. No choice. I guess they think that a tuck fly away promotes bad habits. I'm not a coach so I have no way of knowing if this is true.

So now...her next meet is this coming weekend. She still doesn't have the layout. Though she's *this* close. She'll have a private this week to work on it since she's so close. But if she doesn't get it, she will have to take the spot deduction at the meet. In fact, our whole L6 team will. None of them have the layout fly away. And the coaches won't let them do the tuck. (And now they haven't been practicing the tucks for over a month so who knows if its still even there.)

Anyway, just looking for thoughts on this? Mt kid is SO freaked out about going into a meet when she doesn't have all the skills. And quite frankly, she's pissed bc she knows it doesn't have to be this way. Again, thoughts?

 

[JBS]

Been there...done that...flawed theory.

Gotta try it though...support your coaches...maybe they are better than me.

In theory...the tucked flyaway and the layout flyaway should begin the same. Forcing the layout means that they are having problems teaching a correct tucked flyaway. Typically the kids that have issues with a correct tuck...have issues with a correct layout...just my experience.

Both are very easy to do wrong.

 

[gymgal]

If its any consolation, my did says a layout is easier than a tuck. I have to wonder if the coaches are just pushing the girls but when it comes to competition day, they will let them do the tuck.


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[Geoffrey Taucer]

Gonna disagree with JBS on this one -- I MUCH prefer to teach a layout flyaway instead of a tuck whenever possible. I sometimes tell my girls that as far as I'm concerned, a single tucked flyaway is a nonexistent skill, and that I don't want them tucking their bars dismounts until they're doing doubles.

That said, it does take a lot more time and a lot more work and a lot more spotting to teach a good layout flyaway than it does a tuck.

 

[OzZee]

I don't get it. Yes say that that's the skill they want but not let them compete the skill they have? I don't get it. But then in Australia we rarely compete without a skill, certainly not a whole team.
So push the kids to learn the layout but a week out, say ok well we'll practice the tuck for the comp and then go back to uptraining. I can't see any benefit in the kids losing points by not doing it.
There just must be so many other kids without skills or technique competing there to make it worth dropping a major skill (so assume 1pt) for no reason.

 

[Gymmommy71]

That's a tough one...I'd be really upset if unecessary pressure like that was being put on my DD...especially on something that I consider the most dangerous skill in all of L6. I once saw a girl on her team hit her feet on the high bar when doing a tuck flyaway, and boy was it a scary fall, she was okay, but it was pretty bad the way she hit the ground ...and this girl had been doing them for a long time so the coach wasn't even nearby cause she was way beyond needing a spot. Hopefully at the very least her coach has agreed to "stand there" in between the bars during the meet for all of them (there's no deduction for that allegedly (unless they touch the gymnast)). Also, aren't you still allowed to do a tuck flyaway in L7 w/o any difference in start value? Why would it be a "non-existent" skill if they can do it for two levels? Or maybe I am wrong about the L7 thing....

 

[JBS]

Gonna disagree with JBS on this one -- I MUCH prefer to teach a layout flyaway instead of a tuck whenever possible. I sometimes tell my girls that as far as I'm concerned, a single tucked flyaway is a nonexistent skill, and that I don't want them tucking their bars dismounts until they're doing doubles.

That said, it does take a lot more time and a lot more work and a lot more spotting to teach a good layout flyaway than it does a tuck.

Sure...me too. Unfortunately...most clubs that go with this concept have terrible layouts at L6. A majority of L6 gymnasts cannot throw a nice tapping layout out of a tap swing.

EDIT: Here is a gymnast that could perform either a layout or a tuck correctly. We do not see a ton of this at L6 around here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhqNJop4qgM

 

[LizzieLac]

EDIT: Here is a gymnast that could perform either a layout or a tuck correctly. We do not see a ton of this at L6 around here...

Nica Level6 Bar Routine 2007 Spring Invitational - YouTube

That was one of the best overall level 6 bar routines I have seen. I rarely see such a high cast on the high bar, and I don't think her body ever touched the bar on the baby giant. Nice stuff!!

 

[shelovestoflip]

Bars are my daughter's nemesis. At level 6, she did a tuck flyaway though some girls did layout flyaway. Luckily, her coaches recognized that she wasn't ready (fear wise) to do the layout.

Level 7 she got her layout flyaway and now is Level 8, also doing the layout flyaway. I think for some girls it's a mental thing and they need time, not pressure, to make it work for them.

good luck!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Yes, it is definitely dependent on a HUGE tap swing. There are definitely some girls that I will teach a tuck to, but layout is preferred imo.

 

[Gymmommy71]

That Nica girl in the L6 bar video eventually became an Elite BTW (not sure if she still is). I have watched a lot of her videos on youtube. She's pretty amazing. And if you read the comments you'll see that that routine only got a 9.275 (and she was only 8 in the video)!

 

[LizzieLac]

That Nica girl in the L6 bar video eventually became an Elite BTW (not sure if she still is). I have watched a lot of her videos on youtube. She's pretty amazing. And if you read the comments you'll see that that routine only got a 9.275 (and she was only 8 in the video)!

Only a 9.275!!! That is ridiculous! She must be from one of the ultra-competitive states...

 

[wallinbl]

Only a 9.275!!! That is ridiculous! She must be from one of the ultra-competitive states...

It'd get a low 9 around here.

 

[Gymmommy71]

Only a 9.275!!! That is ridiculous! She must be from one of the ultra-competitive states...

I think she started in California and then ended up in Texas...when my DD was a Level 5 and I wanted to see what the Level 6 bar routine looked like I searched and found that video as the first hit...I watched it and was like "OMG!!!...no way!...and it only got a 9.275..."...lol. Then I watched more videos of her and eventually saw one of her competing in the same session as Nastia Luikin when she was only ~13 years old, and I realized it really wasn't an apples to apples comparison against my DD...lol!!!...

 

[JBS]

Yes, it is definitely dependent on a HUGE tap swing. There are definitely some girls that I will teach a tuck to, but layout is preferred imo.

Exactly...I think we're on the same page GT. I just hate watching layouts with no tap...lots of shoulder angle...and no height. I like seeing the huge tapping flyaways. If I have a kid that is not having any issues with that...then I do take them straight to the layout and come back to the tuck for doubles. The only thing is all those kids also have great tucks.

 

[DisMom]

Gonna disagree with JBS on this one -- I MUCH prefer to teach a layout flyaway instead of a tuck whenever possible. I sometimes tell my girls that as far as I'm concerned, a single tucked flyaway is a nonexistent skill, and that I don't want them tucking their bars dismounts until they're doing doubles.

That said, it does take a lot more time and a lot more work and a lot more spotting to teach a good layout flyaway than it does a tuck.

This seems to be the same philosophy our coaches have. Nice to know that they aren't just coming up with it out of the blue and there seems to be at least some consensus in the sport about this.

No, none of them will be doing tuck fly aways at all. First, they stopped doing them in practice about 5 weeks ago...so no way the coaches are going to have the girls throw a skill they haven't done in over a month during competition. Basically, their philosophy is that the tuck fly away is a "banned skill" in our gym...lol.

Ok, I guess she will just have to sit tight and keep working on the layout...and if she needs a spot during the meet this coming week-end, then she needs a spot.

 

[JBS]

This seems to be the same philosophy our coaches have. Nice to know that they aren't just coming up with it out of the blue and there seems to be at least some consensus in the sport about this.

No, none of them will be doing tuck fly aways at all. First, they stopped doing them in practice about 5 weeks ago...so no way the coaches are going to have the girls throw a skill they haven't done in over a month during competition. Basically, their philosophy is that the tuck fly away is a "banned skill" in our gym...lol.

Ok, I guess she will just have to sit tight and keep working on the layout...and if she needs a spot during the meet this coming week-end, then she needs a spot.

As long as all the flyaways are looking like the girl in the video...then you're good to go. If they are not tapping and creating shoulder angle to flip (like a double lay)...then...blah!

Layouts are only better when they are done correctly.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

this is quite the conundrum. even the video shows how she kills her swing just a bit by tilting her head back as she releases. the release point, all things being equal, should have been where you see her body achieve the top of the swing on the basic swing prior to basic swing for her flyaway. if she were to tilt her head and release on that prior basic swing she more likely than not would have hit the bar because of what she does with her head to mitigate the swing just on her tuck. of course you know that the head must remain neutral and when they are upside down and moving away from the bar they should actually be "looking" at the high bar. but of course we all know that keeping the head neutral is the hardest thing to learn. they either tilt their head, or they bury their chin. both are done by the kids to mitigate swing or prevent hitting the high bar. this is hardest part for the coach to teach.

the fly away, imo, is the 2nd hardest skill to learn after the kip. and this is for girls and because of the damned low bar. the low bar changes HOW you get/tap the flyaway and does THINGS to their heads/minds. understand?

the mechanics are what you deal with as a coach. teach them to tuck and you shorten their axis. teach them layout and you elongate said same.

short axis enhances rotation and long is dependent on technique to derive same force to create that rotation. when they tuck, they tend more to kill their swing and "dump" it off. and if they tuck, they feel more likely than not that they will hit the bar.

doing a layout lessens this feeling. and they are more prone to doing it correctly because they don't fret as much about hitting the high bar.

for the men, they can tap early. with girls at compulsory you get a deduction for tapping above the low bar. and tapping above the low bar long term doesn't work well with most girls as they mature and grow. only the very best on this event can tap above the low bar. doing so also changes the angles and causes them to release early. doing it correctly gives them the feeling of stalling rotation (it's really not, 'think' perfect tuck back on trampoline or floor) and creates other 'feeling' problems in the air. understand?

 

[JBS]

Not sure that I see the girl in the video killing her swing...looks more like she taps much sooner on her flyaway just as the men do.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, which causes the axis to go linear. and she also tilts her head back out of neutral just a bit as she swings from bottom to forward. like i said, if she had let go at the top of the swing before that AND kept her head neutral...well that would be ideal.