Parents Move Ups

[triplethreat+1]

How would you get the skills required for the higher level group between the beginning of summer and fall if you're training with the lower level group?

If it's like my gym, the groups can have different levels in it (my DD 's ranged from 2-4), they are all uptraining over the summer and the start of fall. The level could change from projected but the training group doesn't

 

[CLgym]

We are in the midst of a little summer placement craziness at our gym. We transferred to the gym last May, but I get the impression that last year levels just stayed together for summer training. This year it's a different story. Gym and team have grown a ton, so summer practice groups are being created that mix, split and re-organize levels. For example, my DD's relatively large L4 team will be mixed with the smaller L3 and L5 teams -- and then divided for the summer into two training groups called L4/5 and L5/6. However, gym also announced it will not compete L5 this year. So there's that. Right now my DD is in the 5/6 group but I suspect that could change because she is on the bubble - plus 2 new L5's just transferred to gym and were added to the 5/6 group making numbers uneven. I hope she stays put, but it sometimes seems like a numbers game (as someone said above). At least all groups will be up-training. Just not at the same level/rate. Notice of final levels is given in August. Common sense suggest the L4 girls place in the 4/5 group are more likely to repeat than those in the 5/6 group -- but not necessarily -- and things change throughout the summer. Good coaches will adjust.

 

[CuriousCate]

Just to throw another question in here...do your gyms do an official test day/week or do they make a call based on what the gymnast has accomplished in practice? Ours tells us they do an official test and I always think to myself, "really? you don't already know what they can do? If a kid can pull out a skill they've never gotten or misses a skill they've had for months, will you really make a decision based on that?" I worry that a set test day will encourage kids to try and pull out something they're not polished at and cause them to get injured.

 

[wallinbl]

Just to throw another question in here...do your gyms do an official test day/week or do they make a call based on what the gymnast has accomplished in practice? Ours tells us they do an official test and I always think to myself, "really? you don't already know what they can do? If a kid can pull out a skill they've never gotten or misses a skill they've had for months, will you really make a decision based on that?" I worry that a set test day will encourage kids to try and pull out something they're not polished at and cause them to get injured.

Yep. There will be a practice session before the registration for the first meet where the gymnasts will have to "show" their skills. I don't know how many attempts or how many they have to make, but they do have a test day.

 

[CLgym]

My DD reports some kind of "test" days mid-summer and again late-summer. When I asked why, she commented that some girls "tighten up" when they know they are being judged.

 

[z2akids]

We don't have a "test day." HC frequently observes practices at every level and talks with the level coaches and knows the girls well enough to know where their skill sets are.

Summer training groups (which are likely the competition level for 80-90% of the girls) start in early June. Then competition level groups are finalized at the start of September, although final skills may come later and upgrade during the season.

 

[gymbeam]

Just to throw another question in here...do your gyms do an official test day/week or do they make a call based on what the gymnast has accomplished in practice? Ours tells us they do an official test and I always think to myself, "really? you don't already know what they can do? If a kid can pull out a skill they've never gotten or misses a skill they've had for months, will you really make a decision based on that?" I worry that a set test day will encourage kids to try and pull out something they're not polished at and cause them to get injured.

I think the coaches definitely know and that testing day is more for the kids (and parents, too). It gives them clear, measureable goals and puts a little pressure on them to work toward them well in advance of having to compete them. The testing process itself is also good practice in performing those new skills under pressure.

I don't know this for sure, but I would also venture to guess that there are cases when someone may not "pass the test" on one skill and then are given individual consideration about whether or not they are close enough to move on. My guess is the skill test isn't really the end of the road for an athlete who is maybe super close to getting something they need for that next level- especially if its like missing one leg lift or a few seconds on a rope climb- or who they have seen do a particular skill consistently in practice but misses on testing day for some reason. It may be the end for for some depending on what they were missing, but I bet there are sometimes exceptions.

On the flip side, if like you said, a kid pulls out something one time that they haven't proven their consistency on, their passing the test may be contingent on their being able to prove consistency following the test. And I don't think coaches would risk injury to any of their athletes by letting them even attempt something they didn't think they were ready to try.

 

[thefellowsmom]

Our previous gym had what they called verification days throughout August and September, maybe four total. The girls would have to show the coach one on one where they were on the skill and showing adequate progression to move up.

A lot of the girl hated it and found it really demoralizing. My dd thought it was kinda silly as she wondered why you would need a special day to prove your skills when really you should be doing that every day and why wouldn't the coach know where you are on a skill.

Obviously my dd was either oblivious or didn't care but I think most of the girls were reacting to the fact that head coach would be hovering with a clip board and whispering with others.

I was really impressed, new gym sits the girls down this time of year and fully explains both the level requirements and the gyms requirements for move ups. They then set goals for what skills they want (optionals) and set intermediary goals and know fully that the expectation is all requirements by a certain, very reasonable date.

Not sure if they will have to test or not, but I was impressed as this is the first time a coach has done this for dd. She feels empowered and excited to get started instead of uncertain.

For the record I just had a full meeting with her coach as well. They offer these to everyone who wants them and yeah, more than 90 kids on team too. .

Love our new gym!

 

[Sasha]

About having specific 'testing' days for skills, I suspect that introducing some level of 'performing under pressure' during class where you know you are being scored is perhaps intentional to continue to prepare girls for the mental aspect of competition. There are other ways, of course (practices run like meets, general 'show your skill' to the group times in class...), but a 'test' is certainly extra pressure-inducing for many, and that's not necessarily a bad thing - to learn how to get used to that feeling and move through it.

Also, if a girl is hitting skills well in regular class, but consistently bombs the test (or vice versa), this may be informative to a coach working with her on her mental game.

The official test day(s), as someone else mentioned, can also be good to help communicate something concrete to athletes and parents when justifying level or group assignment. In our case, skills were rated on some scale system according to how 'perfect' or 'consistent' they were (vs. coming along, but not yet consistent, or not yet attempting). I never saw one of the reports personally, but my daughter explained what coach reported were the move up rules, which including needing mostly 'consistent' scores but some smaller number of 'coming along' type ratings were acceptable if the athlete had been showing progress over time (as opposed to 'stuck' on a skill over time with no progress, perhaps). I don't know the exact formula, but at least there seemed to be some guidelines. I generally think formal testing is a good thing if not abused and considered the be-all-end-all of the decision (e.g., girl has one uncharacteristically bad day and sorry Charlie).

 

[mom2newgymnast]

Just to throw another question in here...do your gyms do an official test day/week or do they make a call based on what the gymnast has accomplished in practice? Ours tells us they do an official test and I always think to myself, "really? you don't already know what they can do? If a kid can pull out a skill they've never gotten or misses a skill they've had for months, will you really make a decision based on that?" I worry that a set test day will encourage kids to try and pull out something they're not polished at and cause them to get injured.

I don't remember ever hearing about or seeing testing in the past at dd's gym, but dd's coaches have been "testing" this week. I don't really know what is involved, but I know they have a clipboard and have been getting "grades" of 1-4 on different skills depending on how proficient they are. However, they have such a small team (only 5 girls right now) and the coaches are very aware of what skills they have and where they are so I do not in any way think that the results of the test are going to influence their placements. I think they are doing it more for the rising level 2, 3 and 4s to figure out their placements. I don't think the optionals have to do anything like that.

I imagine that in the placement meeting, if we ever have one, they might refer back to the testing and be able to justify whatever placement they decide on based on the test results. So I suspect the testing in dd's gym case is more to stop any complaining and be able to show the parents why they are placed where they are. But I 100% believe the coaches already know where they are going to put them before doing the testing.

 

[NY Dad]

Thanks everyone for all the info about how this works at different gyms.

My dd's coach (for pre-team) does not work with the team (level's 3+). The team HC makes the decisions. I'm guessing he can be influenced by the pre-team coach (for example if someone had a bad day).

I wish they had mock-meets or something else that would prepare them for the pressure of a meet but I guess this is the closest they have to see how they will preform under pressure. Most of the kids on pre-team had to tryout. I'm guessing they have notes about all the kids. I agree that it makes sense to take into account how much progress they have made since their last evaluation.

My understanding (I'm going to try to get a clarification) is that pre-team does not train over the Summer. The note we got about tryouts says that participation is Summer camps (for a minimum of 3 weeks) will be a factor when considering their placement on one of the teams. I don't know what that means regarding whether or not she would be able to train with them if she doesn't make it (to get added to the team later). Also, I'm guessing that would depend on space too.

 

[CuriousCate]

We don't have a "test day." HC frequently observes practices at every level and talks with the level coaches and knows the girls well enough to know where their skill sets are.

Summer training groups (which are likely the competition level for 80-90% of the girls) start in early June. Then competition level groups are finalized at the start of September, although final skills may come later and upgrade during the season.

This is sort of what I had expected it to be like - a level of fluidity as they move through the process. I like this way a lot because it doesn't feel like you are stuck for a whole season if you are a bit of a late bloomer!

Obviously my dd was either oblivious or didn't care but I think most of the girls were reacting to the fact that head coach would be hovering with a clip board and whispering with others.

I think the clipboard is what bothers my DD. The HC didn't work with her group at all this past season, so when he shows up with a clipboard, nerves go crazy!

 

[SMH]

Pre team has test day/tryout to make team, regular JO team does not do any kind of skills test. They gave the kids their 'expected' levels last week, but told them that things could still change before everything is final.

 

[QueenBee]

@NY Dad, it sounds like you really need to have that clarifying conversation with your gym. If I were you, I would be asking what 'pre-team' actually is at your gym. From the way you've described it, it sounds more like advanced rec (with the possibility of advancing to team training eventually) rather than pre-team as I would understand it.

Our gym's pre-team is a year-round grouping of 4-6 year olds whose purpose is to get the gymnasts ready to start training Level 3. They train about 6 hours a week. Those gymnasts in pre-team move to training Level 3 the summer after they started pre-team (increasing their hours to about 9 hours per week). There is not some sort of testing in order to move up...the 'testing' was done on being chosen to join pre-team (as opposed to staying in a rec class or being invited to join the Xcel team).

In the end, though, it doesn't matter what process my, or any other gym have for move-up; it matters what your gym does. More importantly, figuring out what you want from your child's participation in gymnasts matters. If you really like your gym, trust your coaches and think they run a good program...be willing to go with the flow as to how they think your daughter's progression should go. Take a step back and let the gym do what it does. Trust that the coaches have a plan for your child and it is a reasonable one.

However, I have gotten the feeling from your posts that you aren't feeling good about the process. That you are questioning your gym/coaches' process and decision making. If that is the case - this is where figuring out what you want/believe is really important. Would you be ok with your daughter repeating pre-team next year if that is what the coaches believe to be the best choice for her? Is training Level 3 the only decision that would satisfy you? Do you believe you know where your daughter should be placed? Do you feel the coaches should be/could be doing something differently which would radically change or improve your daughter's gymnastics? Would you be ok with your daughter scoring mediocre/poorly in Level 3 and possibly repeating the level?

Obviously, I don't know the answer to any of those questions. But, if you haven't already - I think you should decide what your answers would be to those questions, and why. I think knowing those answers will help you figure out what to ask in your conversation with your daughter's gym and next steps to take after you have the conversation.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

My understanding (I'm going to try to get a clarification) is that pre-team does not train over the Summer..

This puzzles me. Granted my vast gym experience is a few gyms, the 2 we have been at and few more through friends.

But all our kids have done summer gym. The difference for us has been before team, it was not required to go in the summer. Some did, some did not, some did less hours, or maybe only camp weeks. Before my daughter was on team she did some weeks of gym in summer, some other camps. Most gyms are happy to have your money and they have bills to pay in the summer as well as winter.

Once on team, beyond a vacation it is expected/required hat the gymmies do summers.

Just like camp weeks. If your not team maybe you do camp. If you are on team, it is expected you do camp weeks. No guns held to our heads, but missing a camp week is strongly discouraged.

 

[NY Dad]

@NY Dad, it sounds like you really need to have that clarifying conversation with your gym. If I were you, I would be asking what 'pre-team' actually is at your gym. From the way you've described it, it sounds more like advanced rec (with the possibility of advancing to team training eventually) rather than pre-team as I would understand it.

I agree, I need a better understanding. Her JO2 pre-team is invite only. I agree with you that it doesn't sound like pre-team the way it's usually described on CB.

I mentioned that only some of the pre-team were selected to try out for team and it seems clear from the notice that they will not all make it. The notice says that shortly after the tryout we will be informed if they will be invited to join the team, JO - (levels 1-5) or IGC (copper - Premier) or recommended for a non-competitive group. I wonder if the girls trying out for pre-team get the same letter. Does that mean that if they didn't get a notice they are off pre-team? I don't even think her gym has a JO1 pre-team.

I do know that they have been working on all the level 3 routines and skills.

My answers in blue (at least how I think I feel)

However, I have gotten the feeling from your posts that you aren't feeling good about the process. That you are questioning your gym/coaches' process and decision making.
I'm not questioning the process just trying to understand it.

If that is the case - this is where figuring out what you want/believe is really important. Would you be ok with your daughter repeating pre-team next year if that is what the coaches believe to be the best choice for her?
I think I would be okay with it but not sure she would be. She doesn't see pre-team as being part of the team (she might actually be right)

Is training Level 3 the only decision that would satisfy you?
It's what she wants. I think I would personally be okay if she makes ICG copper or JO3. But I need to understand how the IGC team relates to the JO team at her gym before I can say that with certainty.

Do you believe you know where your daughter should be placed?
My understanding is that it's based on their skill level, strength, flexibility,... relative to the other JO2s (or whoever else is trying out). I have never seen any of these girls train or conditioning and don't know how many team positions there are so I really don't know.

Do you feel the coaches should be/could be doing something differently which would radically change or improve your daughter's gymnastics?
I don't know enough. I've never watched a team practice. I felt at one point that she was written off (after she broke her arm and was out for a few months and came back with significant fears) but since she got a coveted invitation to try out I feel like they are giving her a shot at it. I don't get the impression they would just do that to make her feel better.

Would you be ok with your daughter scoring mediocre/poorly in Level 3 and possibly repeating the level?
I don't want to set her up for complete failure but since she claims she wants to compete I personally would like her to have that opportunity. As long as she's happy and working hard. I would like her to decide from her own experience if she wants to be on the team or not. I think it's premature but yes, I would be okay for her to repeat a level at some point in the future.

 

[Nikki4]

We had one gym that put all the girls into training groups for summer and then determined levels in August.
And we have one where there's a little bit of movement between levels all year but most for compulsory is official in June and optional is official in September.

 

[profmom]

Don't freak out, NYDad. My kids' gym does it that way too -- preteamers do summer camp, and that's where they work on those skills that they will need if they advance to team. The conversation you need to have is how many weeks of camp does your DD need to be ready? With my DD, we were totally clueless. Did two+ weeks of vacation at the end of the summer, during the scramble to get all of the (old) L5 skills and did not realize at all that our DD was on the bubble and that pulling her from training then was a terrible idea. She did survive, but it was probably more stressful than it needed to be. With my son, we just plopped him in camp all summer, and by the time fall rolled around, he was totally ready to go and rock L4. (We did vacation, but we did it earlier.)

 

[NY Dad]

@NY Dad, it sounds like you really need to have that clarifying conversation with your gym. If I were you, I would be asking what 'pre-team' actually is at your gym.

I had a conversation with her coach last Friday (not L3 team coach). It sounds like there will be lots of kids trying out for team. Kids selected from pre-team (like my dd), kids that joined the gym more recently but aren't on the pre-team. More advanced kids from the rec program. kids that are looking to be evaluated that are coming from other gyms and kids that are on IGC copper. So without really saying it to me, I think I agree that she's on an in-between a real pre-team and advanced rec.

Her coach (again he's not the one making this decision) took the opportunity to explain IGC to me and tell me how great he thinks it is for certain kids.I asked if she doesn't make the team (or if she decided she doesn't want IGC if that's what happens). He said that they only do evaluations once a year and that would be the next opportunity for her to move to the L3 would be evaluations next May. When we joined the gym we were told (and my dd has been told) that when they have the necessary skills they would move up (my dd is not aware of any girls moving up while she was on L2.) So this was confusing but I dropped it.

Don't freak out, NYDad. My kids' gym does it that way too

Are you just referring to summer camps for pre-team or try out for kids that think they are headed for the team (while it appears as though many of them aren't)?

The conversation you need to have is how many weeks of camp does your DD need to be ready?

The answer I got back is that they want anyone that makes the team to be available for a minimum 3 weeks of summer camp. The summer camp is available for everyone that's not on team.

Side note, not sure how the other kids are responding to the upcoming evaluations but when my DW picked her up the last two weeks she was told that my DD has been doing a great job (which is something we hadn't heard since before she broke her arm). So that's encouraging. For anyone following they also switched her to the more advanced group yesterday (which she hadn't been on since she broke her arm). Not that I'm reading into that

 

[kayjaybe]

He said that they only do evaluations once a year and that would be the next opportunity for her to move to the L3 would be evaluations next May. When we joined the gym we were told (and my dd has been told) that when they have the necessary skills they would move up (my dd is not aware of any girls moving up while she was on L2.) So this was confusing but I dropped it.

My guess is that they meant they would move up between pre-team levels or they move up between team levels once on the team when they have the skills. I think most gyms only move girls from pre-team to team once per year. There are many practical reasons for this including planning out practice groups, determining payments for coaches fees for meets (price per gymnast is different if there are 10 girls in the level vs. 15 in the level), needing to register kids for meets, etc.

That said, I am only guessing and your best bet is to ask about that at the appropriate time (e.g. If your dd doesn't move up to L3.)